What would upgrading to PS3 cost ? For those in the know

Just cost me $270.00 to fix the R-36 1964 WORLDS SUBWAY. PS-2 PCB just crapped out over 16 years of operation. Nice new clear loud speaker comes with the new PS-3 PC Board. Would never invest or fix any other PS-2's if the PCB quit working. If a BCR wont fix it then it will become a dummy unit. Cost not worth it to to me for anything else I have.

Plenty of Digi-Key BCR's in the parts bin to fix the remaining power units. B&O , now SIRT S-2 Alco was the first to get a BCR Super Cap. Working nicely for several years now.

PS3 diesels, and PS3/2 for steam kits cost 200.00.  Labor, Marty F, gunrunner, and GGG will have to chime in.

I got it done local. Shipping both ways was nuts.

The bottom line:  About $250 to $300 to do it.  If your engine cost $500 or less NO WAY unless near and dear to your heart.  $500 to $900 questionable, $1000+ most likely...

Me?  I strip to "dummy" engine for use or display or buy new.

Everyone will have a different opinion.

dont forget to add $100 round trip for shipping

also don't forget the price is also determined by which engine you need converted to ps3 for instance is cost more to do a mth  cab forward then a big boy they are much more involved so you have to tell or ask who ever is doing the upgrade what engine or engines you need done and then they can give you  price!

Alan

If you can install ERR then you can install PS3. The only difference is you need a Windows PC to install the sound sets (assuming you already have TIU). Way more bang for the buck with PS3. The only thing you need to add is a smoke unit. With TMCC everything is a la carte.

Pete

Norton posted:

If you can install ERR then you can install PS3. The only difference is you need a Windows PC to install the sound sets (assuming you already have TIU). Way more bang for the buck with PS3. The only thing you need to add is a smoke unit. With TMCC everything is a la carte.

Pete

My understanding it is more complicated? Is a installation guide/instruction included and how easy are the directions? Have you done one? In all my time here, I've read numerous people installing ERR sets, but never a first timer on PS3.

Wow, over $250 for a ProtoSound 3 upgrade? I buy LokSound L decoders @ $145 a pop plus $11 for a speaker and I have an engine that has better sounds and features than PS3 or Legacy.

For those of you who aren't too invested in 3 rail, I would give some serious consideration to 2 rail DCC.

If you can do an ERR TMCC upgrade, a PS3 kit isn't much harder. I bought my last kit for $175 from MTH with MTHRRC discount.

josef posted:

Norton posted:

If you can install ERR then you can install PS3. The only difference is you need a Windows PC to install the sound sets (assuming you already have TIU). Way more bang for the buck with PS3. The only thing you need to add is a smoke unit. With TMCC everything is a la carte.

Pete

My understanding it is more complicated? Is a installation guide/instruction included and how easy are the directions? Have you done one? In all my time here, I've read numerous people installing ERR sets, but never a first timer on PS3.

It always takes more time the first time you do anything. My first took me 5-6 hours. Second was about 4. Steam will take longer than diesel dealing with a tether. Also the kit includes all of the lights, markers, headlights and couplers. There is just more included. The instructions are good. Just make sure you read all of them.

You do have to be more careful with DCS though. A pinched wire can fry a board and if you are not an MTH tech (I am NOT)  its your dime.

Try one. If you find you can do it then join the MTH club and get the kits at a discount.

Pete

Josef, I would agree with the above comments that say the upgrade is really not difficult.  I have upgraded all my non-DCS locos to either PS2 (starting in 2004) or PS3.  I have not done a PS3 diesel upgrade, which differs somewhat from the others.

Lionel Steam engines with harness are potential conversions.  Engines with IR tether will require mechanical modifications to use a harness.  Diesel would be simpler.  The big lose in my opinion is the Cruise M to fix odyssey engines and non cruise TMCC engines.  G

RJR posted:

Josef, I would agree with the above comments that say the upgrade is really not difficult.  I have upgraded all my non-DCS locos to either PS2 (starting in 2004) or PS3.  I have not done a PS3 diesel upgrade, which differs somewhat from the others.

Thanks for this encouragement. I'm going to give it a try. What is involved in downloading the sound file? What connector is needed from PC? I guess this maybe my other concern.

I appreciate the time taken here to answer my questions, and the encouragement given. I will say and add, I have only 3 MTH engines but have been impressed by them as well as when a problem occurred how easy it was to get answers from MTH. I think any future purchases will go to MTH.

Josef,

What is involved in downloading the sound file? What connector is needed from PC?

Everything that you need to know about loading PS2 and PS3 sound and chain files is right here.

This and a whole lot more about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

This and a whole lot more about DCS WiFi is all in MTH’s “The DCS WiFi Companion 2nd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

You can not get a price without telling what engine is.   ERR is an easy thing to do.  Most people can do it.  DCS  PS3 upgrades require a bit more work and knowledge.   If you are going to have one done, I strongly suggest you go to an MTH certified tech.  I have seen some very nasty work done by self proclaimed experts.  Stay clear from those people.

One thing that I am a bug on.  If you buy an upgrade kit and plan on having someone do the job,  DO NOT OPEN THE KIT AND PLAY WITH THE BOARD.  Give the kit to the tech with the box sealed.   I had a man from another state travel to me with two PS1 Big Boys.  I told him when he purchased the kits at York to not open them.  He opened everything after being told not to do so.   I sent him home with his engines and kits.  Being a person who does these upgrades it  is tough as you need to stand your ground.  

From the start of the ERR posts I have had several calls to do upgrades.  I have 191 DCS upgrades under my belt.  I did the first PS3 Diesel for MTH about a year before the kits came out.  Early on, the diesel was going to use the PS32 board and they changed it last minute to a PS3 Diesel board.   I see many non tech guys get in trouble as they do not know about flashing the chain files.  

Bottom line on labor, depends on the engine.  I have been to many schools (Trains) and if I pick a job I am always fair but it gets done right.  I do not do these to pay bills.  I have other work I do and usually tell people to call George.

Years ago when Mike changed his mind on doing upgrades due to popular demand,  nobody could see the future and realize many other brands would be upgraded by the kit.  I have done Lionel, Weaver, K-Line, 3rd Rail, and Williams.  The kit can go a long way only limited to your fabricating skills.  Doing upgrades has let me build up a big stock pile of PS1 and other boards.   For a good length of time I had a guy who would buy several PS-1 board sets to upgrade his Williams engines.   I have another guy in Mid America who does lots of upgrade work but does not know the computer.  He sends me boards and I install the files he needs.  A win win for both sides.

Pay whatever a tech wants and you should be alright.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

You can not get a price without telling what engine is.   ERR is an easy thing to do.  Most people can do it.  DCS  PS3 upgrades require a bit more work and knowledge.   If you are going to have one done, I strongly suggest you go to an MTH certified tech.  I have seen some very nasty work done by self proclaimed experts.  Stay clear from those people.

One thing that I am a bug on.  If you buy an upgrade kit and plan on having someone do the job,  DO NOT OPEN THE KIT AND PLAY WITH THE BOARD.  Give the kit to the tech with the box sealed.   I had a man from another state travel to me with two PS1 Big Boys.  I told him when he purchased the kits at York to not open them.  He opened everything after being told not to do so.   I sent him home with his engines and kits.  Being a person who does these upgrades it  is tough as you need to stand your ground.  

From the start of the ERR posts I have had several calls to do upgrades.  I have 191 DCS upgrades under my belt.  I did the first PS3 Diesel for MTH about a year before the kits came out.  Early on, the diesel was going to use the PS32 board and they changed it last minute to a PS3 Diesel board.   I see many non tech guys get in trouble as they do not know about flashing the chain files.  

Bottom line on labor, depends on the engine.  I have been to many schools (Trains) and if I pick a job I am always fair but it gets done right.  I do not do these to pay bills.  I have other work I do and usually tell people to call George.

Years ago when Mike changed his mind on doing upgrades due to popular demand,  nobody could see the future and realize many other brands would be upgraded by the kit.  I have done Lionel, Weaver, K-Line, 3rd Rail, and Williams.  The kit can go a long way only limited to your fabricating skills.  Doing upgrades has let me build up a big stock pile of PS1 and other boards.   For a good length of time I had a guy who would buy several PS-1 board sets to upgrade his Williams engines.   I have another guy in Mid America who does lots of upgrade work but does not know the computer.  He sends me boards and I install the files he needs.  A win win for both sides.

Pay whatever a tech wants and you should be alright.

Thanks for reply but reason I asked this question is that I have been burned now twice by known and recommended technicians. I learned to install ERR kits after getting burned by someone highly trusted and recommended that charged and said ERR kit and was priced and charged accordingly but substituted parts and maybe if so informed would have accepted, and rather then apologize, even later I might have forgiven.

Then just recently a beloved MTH engine I sent off and repair center was recommended by MTH charged me 300.00 for the PS3 kit and 275.00 for the upgrade, also shipping back to me cost (which was 22.00 more then the postage/insurance cost).

Lionel isn't accepting out of warranty work, MTH recommendations turned out a costly recommendation. A highly touted, recommended  technician turned out to substitute and not install parts I was charged for. So asking the question was knowing already the cost of the PS3 kit, ( Probable they pay a lower price for the kit then I would, but no problem with that part), Its the labor cost that I was more into finding out. I know it would be higher for a more complex engine, and difference between a Diesel and steam engine.

 The point is if it cost over 500.00 for an upgrade to be installed, then truly, these engines produced are throwaways after their electronics are fried, or queen shelf display models. If ERR kits will no longer be offered to consumers like myself to keep engines running at a reasonable cost outlay, and as you tout PS3 are so complicated that an engineering degree is needed to install, then truly, O scale will slowly fade and die away except for those with unlimited funds to keep them running.

Geez, Marty - You make it sound like one needs a degreee in nuclear physics to install these boards.  Hey, If they have the aptitude to get the shell off they are half way there - 

Everyday, is a learning curve.  The real issue is that "most" people are not willing to experience disaster before success. The disaster situation is where real learning takes place. Lol, I've thrown some Ching at things over the years rectifying repair mistakes. Autos, home, work....But, it didn't bother me! I chalked it up to experience....."most" will freak...

So, If the instructions are very clear. Mixed with a little aptitude...none of this is rocket science...Now, hopefully - they didn't skip science class.

George (GGG) has done a number of Ps2/3 pgrades for me.  None of this is cheap, but the work was professionally done and the price was fair given the time involved.  I would highly recommend him.

unless its a premier steam engine its cheaper to sell the old one on ebay for parts and buy a new one at a big discount mail order train store

Josef, what were your engines you feel you over paid for?  Not every engine is easy to do.  I am curious what parts were substituted?   I am not clear on what you were talking about.  Many times the speaker that comes with the kit needs to be smaller for the engine used.  Was this tech a certified guy?  I have done many Williams NW-2 switchers with the die cast frame.  That needs a very small speaker and MTH makes one for it.  A certified MTH tech pays 50% less for his parts than a self proclaimed tech.  I will not ask you but would love to know who did your work as I am always sending guys work.  My email is in my profile. 

Shawn, get the shell off and be half way there.  That is not the case.  I know people who have weeks invested trying to figure things out.  The book is great and will take you from A-Z.  The problem is many do not read the book and feel they do not need it.  BTW for all reading this post, I am not looking for any work off the forum.  I am buried in work at the moment and fighting health issues.

Shawn, the PS2 upgrade was not bad as the sound file was all you needed to load.  PS3 is a different animal as the chain files need to be flashed then the sound file.  This will add time onto the job.  Time is money.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Josef, what were your engines you feel you over paid for?  Not every engine is easy to do.

First, does it cost 300.00 for a PS3 kit? When they are listed to even me at slightly under 200.00.

As to engine, it was a 2-8-0 PS2 MTH

Besides, if it cost nearly 600.00 (which includes shipping both ways). I could have bought 3 PS3 kits and even if I messed 2 up, would still be ahead installing or trying myself.

If this is normal cost, then staying into the Hobby is a done thing.

Appreciate your comments though.

PS3 kit way under that price.   Your engine is an easy one to do.   You did not need a PS3 kit if your engine has a 5V board.  You could have used a PS-32 board and all your plugs in your existing engine plug into that board.  You will need a new speaker.  If someone charged you $300.00, I would love to know in my email.  It will stay with me.  I can say that I know prices for parts and labor and it sounds like you got screwed big time.  Please remember my email.

Some one certainly marked up the Upgrade kit.  It retails for $200.  But I will tell you this, there is no real discount on these even for Tech or Stores.  By the time shipping is added on they run me about $175.  So I make $25 profit in parts.   I do not like to discuss labor as it does vary, but I must way under charge if some one got $275.   MTH charges $45hr labor rate, does not do upgrades, but a PS-2 5V repair to a new PS-32 runs about $290-300 depending.

Upgrades run about that, and little more for Brass, adding smoke is another big jump, Diesel ABA also.  Going for exotic like Coal Turbines and such, there is a lot of time.  I flat rate it though.  If I ever charged actual hours, I guess I would charge $300 in labor for a single engine.  Some times brass engines take 2-3 day to finish.  

BUT here is the big thing:  You get a QUOTE before you send the engine.  If it is a repair you get an ball park estimate and I tell you actual cost and get your approval before I do it.  G

Josef, as I indicated before, you can download from the MTH site the detailed instructions on how to install these kits.

I've done about 15 upgrades, only on my own locos, and I do not do them for others.  No one would accuse me of doing neat work, but I've had no problems and 14 years after my first batch,  everything still works.

Having said that, there are only 2 people to whom I would trust my trains if it were something I couldn't do (like on on-electronics-board repair).  Marty is one and GGG is the other.  Their prices are reasonable and their work perfect.

George is the man to fix boards

catnap posted:

Wow, over $250 for a ProtoSound 3 upgrade? I buy LokSound L decoders @ $145 a pop plus $11 for a speaker and I have an engine that has better sounds and features than PS3 or Legacy.

For those of you who aren't too invested in 3 rail, I would give some serious consideration to 2 rail DCC.

Yep, I second that. If you are looking at converting, get away from the proprietary protocols entirely and go DCC.

Like catnap, I use ESU Loksound L decoders ($120 or $140 depending on the exact version). They have sounds and motor control that really do put Lionel and MTH to shame, not to mention a bunch of other features. Their programmer is great, and comes with a really slick PC app. And there are a ton of sound files available for download.

DCC doesn't have to mean 2 rail, btw. I run all my stuff on 3 rail.

I made this move a while back when I was looking at going digital with a roster that included Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and Williams of various vintages. No way to run all of those on proprietary protocols. Went DCC and have been loving it ever since.

It's a shame the O scale market is so fragmented in this way.

Thor

Would you be able to post a video of a 3 rail engine running via DCC?

Or point to one to watch.

I'm interested in this approach but am not familiar with this option or how to begin.

Thanks

Dave

Soo Line posted:

Thor

Would you be able to post a video of a 3 rail engine running via DCC?

Or point to one to watch.

I'm interested in this approach but am not familiar with this option or how to begin.

Thanks

Dave

I have a Shay that I just installed a decoder in recently and have been meaning to do a write up for in the DCC forum. Looks like now might be a good time for that!

Wholeheartedly agree Thor and look forward to learning about this option.

Thanks

Dave

No video yet, but here is the write up of the decoder install, for those interested:

https://ogrforum.com/...stallataion-mth-shay

Thor73 posted above

" If you are looking at converting, get away from the proprietary protocols entirely and go DCC.

Like catnap, I use ESU Loksound L decoders ($120 or $140 depending on the exact version). They have sounds and motor control that really do put Lionel and MTH to shame, not to mention a bunch of other features. Their programmer is great, and comes with a really slick PC app. And there are a ton of sound files available for download.

DCC doesn't have to mean 2 rail, btw. I run all my stuff on 3 rail.

I made this move a while back when I was looking at going digital with a roster that included Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and Williams of various vintages. No way to run all of those on proprietary protocols. Went DCC and have been loving it ever since.

It's a shame the O scale market is so fragmented in this way."

Yes indeed - it IS a shame the 3 rail O gauge lineup is as it is.  I have a few recent HO engines/locomotives and the sound in them is as good as my Lionel/MTH, just not quite as loud.  ...but wait! I ran a BLI 2-10-4 at the club layout with the "Rolling Thunder" subwoofer and I dare say the sound was better than what I'm used to.

Seems we may have been hoodwinked all these years fellas...

Will the MTH DCS system control DCC ?

josef posted:

I've read the posts on the demise of ERR and made my comments. Some post were on considering upgrading to PS3. So, what would the cost average be to convert beloved engines to DCS, parts and labor, (just an average)? I know how to install ERR boards and have. But would not be able to do PS3. If I stay in the Hobby, I would convert 6 remaining engines to PS3 and be done with all upgrades. I presently only have 3 PS3 engines, all others with command are Legacy or TMCC ERR installed stems, (62 engines total). 

If the cost isn't to prohibitive, I might consider staying in "O".

Personally, since the official Lionel communication, I'm waiting to do upgrades.  I have an ERR kit or two but I'm holding off doing anything until the dust settles in upgrading a couple of WBB locs that I really, really want on my roster.

So.  For the time being there's no panic.  And certainly no panic "upgrades" to DCS.

feet posted:

Will the MTH DCS system control DCC ?

No.

rthomps posted:

feet posted:

Will the MTH DCS system control DCC ?

No.

I didn't think it would but did not no for sure.

thor73 posted:

catnap posted:

Wow, over $250 for a ProtoSound 3 upgrade? I buy LokSound L decoders @ $145 a pop plus $11 for a speaker and I have an engine that has better sounds and features than PS3 or Legacy.

For those of you who aren't too invested in 3 rail, I would give some serious consideration to 2 rail DCC.

Yep, I second that. If you are looking at converting, get away from the proprietary protocols entirely and go DCC.

Like catnap, I use ESU Loksound L decoders ($120 or $140 depending on the exact version). They have sounds and motor control that really do put Lionel and MTH to shame, not to mention a bunch of other features. Their programmer is great, and comes with a really slick PC app. And there are a ton of sound files available for download.

DCC doesn't have to mean 2 rail, btw. I run all my stuff on 3 rail.

I made this move a while back when I was looking at going digital with a roster that included Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and Williams of various vintages. No way to run all of those on proprietary protocols. Went DCC and have been loving it ever since.

It's a shame the O scale market is so fragmented in this way.

But those decoders won't run a MTH or Lionel smoke unit...Only a LokSound XL 4.0 decoder can run smoke and they cost $200 each plus they can only use a LokSound plastic smoke unit at $90 each. 

The programmer to change sounds cost another what?? $150 so where's the "deal"??

Casey Jones2 posted:

thor73 posted:

catnap posted:

Wow, over $250 for a ProtoSound 3 upgrade? I buy LokSound L decoders @ $145 a pop plus $11 for a speaker and I have an engine that has better sounds and features than PS3 or Legacy.

For those of you who aren't too invested in 3 rail, I would give some serious consideration to 2 rail DCC.

Yep, I second that. If you are looking at converting, get away from the proprietary protocols entirely and go DCC.

Like catnap, I use ESU Loksound L decoders ($120 or $140 depending on the exact version). They have sounds and motor control that really do put Lionel and MTH to shame, not to mention a bunch of other features. Their programmer is great, and comes with a really slick PC app. And there are a ton of sound files available for download.

DCC doesn't have to mean 2 rail, btw. I run all my stuff on 3 rail.

I made this move a while back when I was looking at going digital with a roster that included Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and Williams of various vintages. No way to run all of those on proprietary protocols. Went DCC and have been loving it ever since.

It's a shame the O scale market is so fragmented in this way.

But those decoders won't run a MTH or Lionel smoke unit...Only a LokSound XL 4.0 decoder can run smoke and they cost $200 each plus they can only use a LokSound plastic smoke unit at $90 each. 

The programmer to change sounds cost another what?? $150 so where's the "deal"??

Okay these are good points!

DCC was intriguing to me as an open standard but I really like the Super-Chuffer and MTH Smoke units. The cost savings suddenly disappear with the more expensive decoder for smoke and the proprietary smoke unit unit that is required. The programmer from MTH (DCS Consumer Loader) was free.

I asked in another thread if the DCC boards will allow me to continue to use my converted DCC engines in conventional mode with a ZW or Z4000 and retain basic Bell & Whistle features.

Just curious about of this.