I have a lionel hudson steam locomotive it pulls pretty good.I have had pull a 27 car train.But even with smoke fluild and running at high speed.I only see a few small puffs and I have to look to see that.I just don,t get it.
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Was this Lionchief Plus? I really think they need to figure out there smoke units
we have visited this subject before and smoke continues to be an issue
Bob C.
tim,,,homework!
Its a command ready hudson .I operate convental using mth z4000 transformer.It has signal sounds it can be upgraded to rail sounds.I hope that makes things little more clear.And as always I will be very greatful for any help.
We have some Lionel engines with really anemic smoke output, just stopped using the smoke feature. How many volts is it at when running?
The smoke unit in that engine probably needs standard servicing and the treatment that Mike Reagan illustrates in his smoke unit video on Lionel's website; I think that these came with the 27 Ohm resistor/heating element wrapped in some kind of woven tube that it's best to remove. (I am assuming its a fan driven unit and not a puffer.)
The only other thing from your description that strikes me is the use of a Z4000 MTH transformer. I had one and after being told by both Lionel and 3rd Rail that because of the sine wave output these are not best suited to their smoke units I stopped using it in favor of a ZW-L. There has been a marked improvement in smoke output since I changed and it had no adverse effect on my MTH engines.
It would help if you provided a product number. Assuming this is an early 2000's unit, it likely does have the 27 ohm 3057-200 smoke unit, as was said above. In addition to the Mike Reagan mods mentioned, you might also want to swap the resistor out for an 18 ohm (available through Lionel), or a 16 ohm MTH. The problem with the 27 ohm is that it just doesn't get hot enough at normal track voltages to produce any wattage. The 18 ohm OTOH will make lots of smoke.
Rod
not a single answer has asked for the 6 dash number or if this engine is run conventional.
bigdodgetrain posted:not a single answer has asked for the 6 dash number or if this engine is run conventional.
Actually my earlier post indirectly suggested that it would be nice if this info was provided. The OP also said the engine is command ready, and that he runs conventional, so I think that is pretty clear IMO. 
Rod
bigdodgetrain posted:not a single answer has asked for the 6 dash number or if this engine is run conventional.
Duh, look at the post directly above your post. 
It would help if you provided a product number.
Livesteam1987 posted:Lionel is terrible with their smoke units. Cheap stuff from China = a terrible product. Lionel for some reason does not see this or attempt to make it right.
This is not true Lionel did a great job recently like my sd40 bnsf es44 and my empire state express
There older stuff needs a little tuning like my legacy j1a
Livesteam1987 posted:Lionel is terrible with their smoke units. Cheap stuff from China = a terrible product. Lionel for some reason does not see this or attempt to make it right.
Lionel and MTH both get their stuff from China, including smoke units, so that's a somewhat bogus characterization.
I have no issue getting decent smoke from Lionel units. I hasten to add that you probably won't get MTH level smoke from most Lionel units, as the dual-resistor design really does work very well for MTH. Smoke units in any maker's locomotives are one of the highest maintenance items, that's just the nature of the beast.
We still have yet to see the actual model being discussed from the OP, not to mention if it's conventional or command operation. That would tell us a lot and make it easier to diagnose what his specific issue is.
The command ready units with can motors do not pull enough voltage for the smoke unit to function properly. When upgraded to full command the unit sees the higher voltage and works perfectly. GRJ should be able to suggest a smaller resister that will work at the lower voltages.
romiller
gunrunnerjohn posted:bigdodgetrain posted:not a single answer has asked for the 6 dash number or if this engine is run conventional.
Duh, look at the post directly above your post.
It would help if you provided a product number.
must have posted at the same time DUH!!!
Rod Stewart posted:bigdodgetrain posted:not a single answer has asked for the 6 dash number or if this engine is run conventional.
Actually my earlier post indirectly suggested that it would be nice if this info was provided. The OP also said the engine is command ready, and that he runs conventional, so I think that is pretty clear IMO.
Rod
posted at the same time!!
romiller49 posted:The command ready units with can motors do not pull enough voltage for the smoke unit to function properly. When upgraded to full command the unit sees the higher voltage and works perfectly. GRJ should be able to suggest a smaller resister that will work at the lower voltages.
romiller
Correct, that's one reason newer stuff has a voltage regulator, it manages the smoke unit power over a wide track voltage range. I've done several "upgrades" by supplying a simple DC-DC buck power module with a bridge rectifier to power the smoke unit with constant voltage, works great. The regulator board and bridge (maybe a cap if necessary) are only a couple of bucks, so it's a cheap enough upgrade to cobble together. You do have to change the resistor to a lower value, I use an 8 ohm resistor in those conversions.
and now that we have wasted so many posts criticizing me, how about we wait until the op returns and tells us what the number is?
maybe I should put my time posted incase someone posts at the same time.
12:22 pm pacific time
15:33 EDT, no word yet! 
15:39 CDT, still no word (unless OP is posting at same time) so some totally uncontroversial remarks follow:
1. Having got what appears to be the definitive answer about why his command-ready Hudson don't smoke like a chimney, perhaps the OP will not be returning to this thread at all.
2. Noting GRJ's comment above about AC Regulators and his upgrades, I wonder if there is an optimum constant voltage for fan-driven Lionel smoke units? I seem to remember Mike Reagan saying that it was actually something like 12-14 volts. (I thought he was referring to AC track voltage but I could be wrong about that.)
Some later TMCC and pretty much all Legacy locomotives have a voltage regulator for the smoke units and they work at most any track voltage. The voltage to the actual smoke unit will be a lot less than 12 volts as that would burn them up in short order. The VR equipped engines have either a 6 ohm or 8 ohm smoke resistor. A six ohm smoke resistor at 12 volts would draw two amps and dissipate 24 watts! That's about 4-5 times what you want happening in a smoke unit! You'll get lots of smoke for a very short time!
gunrunnerjohn posted:Some later TMCC and pretty much all Legacy locomotives have a voltage regulator for the smoke units and they work at most any track voltage. The voltage to the actual smoke unit will be a lot less than 12 volts as that would burn them up in short order. The VR equipped engines have either a 6 ohm or 8 ohm smoke resistor. A six ohm smoke resistor at 12 volts would draw two amps and dissipate 24 watts! That's about 4-5 times what you want happening in a smoke unit! You'll get lots of smoke for a very short time!
Not to hijack this thread but:
1. I get what you are saying and I have unfortunately seen the result when an AC regulator fails, which indeed leads to Lots a smoke for a very short time.
2. I was actually thinking of those older smoke units with 27 Ohm resistors that ran off of track or accessory voltage. I don't think that those have regulators. At 12-14VAC input I reckon they draw roughly 0.5 Amp and dissipate 5/6 Watts. or am I wrong?
The 27 ohm fan driven smoke units work well at 12-14 volts, that is true. That's in the 5-7 watt range, pretty much the design area I would imagine.
My point about the regulators for conventional operation is they supply the same voltage to the smoke unit over a wide range of track voltages. This avoids the anemic smoke at low speed and the cooking of the smoke wick at high speeds.
Sorry it took so long to reply.But I was in a car crash a few days ago.Jeep in the body shop I am still sore.And shook up and well its not been easy trying to get back to normal.But I greatful for the information posted here.
Sorry to hear about your accident. Can you share the exact Lionel model number for your problem locomotive?
Its lionel 71-8082-250
seaboardm2 posted:Its lionel 71-8082-250
That is the number of the owner's manual but it appears to identify the engine itself as a 6-18083 Hudson. This has a mechanical (piston) smoke unit, not a fan-driven one. I'm no expert on those although there are numerous threads about them here and Hennings sells a set of replacement parts for certain of this kind of smoke unit if you need them. Go here for the Lionel parts diagram: https://www.lionelsupport.com/...27-bbcb-dfdcbd8dec03
I note that the original resistor/heating element is no longer available from Lionel and it's of a kind and spec that I have not had to deal with. However the diagnosis of the underlying problem about these command-ready engines given above by ROMILLER49 may mean that something more than just routine maintenance/repair is called for.
The old puffers never offered great smoke as a rule, so it's not surprising you're disappointed with the smoke. That's why I usually replace them with a fan driven unit. 
Thank you very much for the information.This is very helpful.
