Where to Get Lionel Vision Engines (Out of Warranty) Repaired

Check with @Alex M, he does excellent work and has worked on a number of VL locomotives.

Thanks John. Will contact him.

Second for Alex on VL repairs,…..he knows them inside & out!…..great guy!..

Pat

Unfortunately there's frequently no other option but to send engines long distances (with major shipping costs) to find a source for repairs with the expertise to handle the sophisticated electronics or other systems in Vision or Legacy (or even TMCC) engines. There are lots of "repair deserts" these days.

Just look up Big Boy repair and you'll find Alex's post from years ago on how he fixed an utter mess.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Just look up Big Boy repair and you'll find Alex's post from years ago on how he fixed an utter mess.

Ain’t that the truth! ……I’ve seen VL Big Boys splattered across his bench with half the wiring harnesses charred beyond recognition, …..and he soldiers through it!!…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Ain’t that the truth! ……I’ve seen VL Big Boys splattered across his bench with half the wiring harnesses charred beyond recognition, …..and he soldiers through it!!…

Pat

That repair was a workload no one should have had to do. The amount of broken things let alone the wires all over, it's a miracle. That gives guys like me hope that if I blow up an engine, someone will be able to get it back together.

Thanks all who have replied!

Curious - Does anyone use a reputable hobby store that not only sells Lionel but also is certified for Lionel repairs - ideally including Vision technology?

The problem with repairs is there aren't enough repair guys and too many broken trains.  I've been turning away work for some time now, I just can't keep up with what comes through the shop now.  Yes, I've fixed lots of Vision Line locomotives, but as others have said, they're clearly a cut above most stuff in complexity.

Hi GRJ,

Thanks for the reality insight about repair work options.

Ken

@Ken Gillig posted:

Thanks all who have replied!

Curious - Does anyone use a reputable hobby store that not only sells Lionel but also is certified for Lionel repairs - ideally including Vision technology?

Your profile shows that you live in NE Illinois.  There are two relatively large Lionel clubs near you - Chicago and Milwaukee.  Have you visited them and asked for recommendations?  The midwest division of TCA is also fairly active - it might be a source for local information.  And TM is located in Michigan City - I think they have a contact for repairs.

As far as parts availability for Vision Line engines, what would be a good top-level summary? If the engine was manufactured more than ten years ago, one should not depend on Lionel carrying parts for it in stock?

@Norman R posted:

As far as parts availability for Vision Line engines, what would be a good top-level summary? If the engine was manufactured more than ten years ago, one should not depend on Lionel carrying parts for it in stock?

You can’t summarize squat, ….Lionel parts is so hit or miss, it’s a pig in a poke ……the majority of the new stuff has no listings, no part numbers, and if it’s older, they dump the parts …..

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The problem with repairs is there aren't enough repair guys and too many broken trains.  I've been turning away work for some time now, I just can't keep up with what comes through the shop now.  Yes, I've fixed lots of Vision Line locomotives, but as others have said, they're clearly a cut above most stuff in complexity.

I can't think of a time I haven't been busy in the last couple of years.  Also seems to be more and more trains not fixable due to parts.  I was asked for some trucks for a K-Line Crusader today...

Other situations you may be able to engineer a way to bring the engine back to life, but it isn't economically feasible.

Jim

@Jim Sandman posted:

I can't think of a time I haven't been busy in the last couple of years.  Also seems to be more and more trains not fixable due to parts.  I was asked for some trucks for a K-Line Crusader today...

Other situations you may be able to engineer a way to bring the engine back to life, but it isn't economically feasible.

Jim

And the economics is the MAIN factor, …..I get asked 20 times a day to make this part, or make that part, ……we never get past the estimate phase!….

Pat

@Mallard4468 posted:

Your profile shows that you live in NE Illinois.  There are two relatively large Lionel clubs near you - Chicago and Milwaukee.  Have you visited them and asked for recommendations?  The midwest division of TCA is also fairly active - it might be a source for local information.  And TM is located in Michigan City - I think they have a contact for repairs.

I'm in the Chicago area and familiar with both clubs. My first choice for service has always been GRJ and Alex M.

@Ken Gillig

Hey Ken, whomever you reach out to, remember that you may be on a list first and foremost. The second thing is that this is the very busy train season as we all should know. This could be difficult to get it done within the end of the year time frame depending on how busy the person is to begin with. Regardless of that, anyone on here will give you great service, communication, and advice if need be on anything going on with the engine in general. I know when I had Alex do my first upgrade to ERR, he was very thorough on what I wanted, and advice on things to consider.

I have not had the pleasure of burdening John(GRJ) with any of my engines, but I do seek his advice on things as well as quite a few other folks here on the forum. I still have a Ten Wheeler I have to get the smoke unit fixed, LED's popped in, and I don't remember what one of the other things was.

Sometimes threads like these get me down, and despite the fact that I love Lionel and how modern engines look and perform, I don't want to buy anymore. 

Breezinup makes a great point, I remember in the 80s and 90s when service stations were all over the place and you could easily, and with confidence, take your train to a shop and get good service and not have to send it anywhere. 

My big wish for Lionel is that they would, somehow, find a way to have service stations like they once had that could repair the simplest engine all the way up to Visionline.  If not that, then (again somehow) staff the facility in NC with technicians who would accept any Lionel engine for repair, warranty or not.  Charge for the services, no problem. But for goodness sakes make sure you have parts and technicians available so that customers will be confident that if they have a problem, it will be fixed, even if they bought the train years ago.  This is how it used to be!  I realize these wishes are probably not compatible with economic reality and the manufacturing of trains overseas.

I thank AlexM, Pat, GRJ and others who can and do help us.  I particularly thank AlexM, he has helped me many times and is a great, great guy!  I don't think you guys realize sometimes the positive impact you've had on the hobby.   

@Jim Sandman posted:

Also seems to be more and more trains not fixable due to parts.

This seems to be the way of all consumer electronics these days. A lot of things aren't economical to repair or parts are not available. Not a good situation when you spend up to two grand on a loco and can't get parts.

@Rob N posted:

Sometimes threads like these get me down, and despite the fact that I love Lionel and how modern engines look and perform, I don't want to buy anymore.

Breezinup makes a great point, I remember in the 80s and 90s when service stations were all over the place and you could easily, and with confidence, take your train to a shop and get good service and not have to send it anywhere.

My big wish for Lionel is that they would, somehow, find a way to have service stations like they once had that could repair the simplest engine all the way up to Visionline.  If not that, then (again somehow) staff the facility in NC with technicians who would accept any Lionel engine for repair, warranty or not.  Charge for the services, no problem. But for goodness sakes make sure you have parts and technicians available so that customers will be confident that if they have a problem, it will be fixed, even if they bought the train years ago.  This is how it used to be!  I realize these wishes are probably not compatible with economic reality and the manufacturing of trains overseas.

I thank AlexM, Pat, GRJ and others who can and do help us.  I particularly thank AlexM, he has helped me many times and is a great, great guy!  I don't think you guys realize sometimes the positive impact you've had on the hobby.   

I couldn't agree more with Rob N on this. I live 45 min from what used to be the Lionel service dept and parts in Canfield/Boardman Ohio. This was Lionels service location before moving to N Carolina. I took locos there for repairs. I could drop them off in the morning, have lunch nearby, then pick up the repaired loco a few hrs later. I had stopped buying Lionel years earlier because of repair issues, but when I could get this kind of service, I started buying again. I had a nightmere with a out of warranty repair back in 2017. Lionel bought the loco back but I never recouped my 600 dollars in faulty repairs. I have not bought any Lionel since 2017. All this new stuff is gorgeous but when day 366 hits you are on your own. I wont put myself through that again.

Good Morning OGR,

Wow! After a 30-year absence in the hobby I honestly was not aware that the state of Lionel servicing had become so scarce. Thankfully the talents of well-seasoned expert hobbyists - like those named here in OGR - are keeping things afloat as best as can be. I really do thank everyone who spoke out on this!

I do have one great local service location I have used a lot for Post War - Berwyn Toys and Hobby's - no intent here to plug them, just acknowledging them and their several talented people to draw on that have done great work. I realize that the new-age Lionel products have more complexity and thus likely more need for repairs, mods, etc. - therein lies my original OGR post to get to know if possible sources of whom to call when I need a "trainbuster".

Back in the '80s to early '90s here in the Chicago area there were several great options of hobby retail and service locations with experts in everything Lionel. After re-engaging after 30 years and rushing out to build a major layout and acquire the attractive new products and capabilities (Legacy Control, LCS Control, ZW(L), Vision, Fastrack, Legacy & VisionLine, .....) I have to admit I have not worried about "what happens when it does not work", and now I have a few of those challenges to overcome. I know they will be solved ... my only angst has been and will remain is that I am doing this mainly for my three grandchildren to capture their attention and imagination while they are still young and while I am able .... BECAUSE I missed the opportunity to do that for my son when he was their age.

So I can understand frustration about the state of Lionel service-ability that was echoed in the many responses - you all just have a few years on me adjusting to this situation and fingin out who can do good work, but I am and will learn quickly - and I still love this hobby and Lionel products.

Thanks again OGR for being the helpful forum I joined.

- Ken

@Ken Gillig posted:

Wow! After a 30-year absence in the hobby I honestly was not aware that the state of Lionel servicing had become so scarce. Thankfully the talents of well-seasoned expert hobbyists - like those named here in OGR - are keeping things afloat as best as can be. I really do thank everyone who spoke out on this!

Thirty years ago, the level of knowledge to repair most of the trains was learned over the course of decades as it was mostly mechanical.  That's not to mention they were much simpler and typically would run much longer without service.  Guys that had learned train repair in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, could still repair the stuff being made in the 90's.

Fast forward to today, and even the low-end products bristle with electronics and various gee-wiz gadgets.  There have been no new Lionel training classes for many years, so the number of repair techs is continually dwindling, and many of the old hands don't have the expertise in electronics to deal with the new products.  There needs to be a different skill set to repair many of the issues of modern trains, and I don't know that Lionel is really equipped to train people on the new products, even if they were so inclined.   Add to that that the QC is not what it used to be, so more out of the box failures are more common.  Finally, I can find most of the parts I need to service a 100 year old pre-war locomotive today, but many times I can't obtain the parts needed to service a ten year old modern locomotive!

All of those things combine and we find yourself in the situation we are in today.

Great points GRJ that I fully understand and fully agree with!

Your picture depicts what in many other industries would call a company's inflection point that will likely determine whether a continued existence and success is found, or the door closes.

Could not our Forum advocate to Lionel the emerging need to put on more training? ... If not with and to Lionel employees, then with and to 'volunteers' or 'interested customers' who love the hobby and who want to help create and transfer the knowledge from our elder learned masters (like you and several others in OGR) to a next generation set of emerging masters who can caretake future hobbyists as they enter or mature their wishes and abilities (like me).

I would think that such an accomplishment would feed into helping to achieve higher QC on new products BEFORE released, that in turn would help keep prices down rather than jump up the hundreds of dollars on each new year's catalog of featured new items to among other things help pay for bad or late service.

Without trying to be critical of any company, parts may be a separate issue from repair experience and training, but the parts lack right now seems to be a point deserving far more attention than it seems to be getting. In other industries such a condition if lasting too long often has led to customers escaping their loyalty to other product companies (if such exist or look like they will remain existing), OR, join hands to protest in efforts to get the right attention on the problem and keep the customers favorite products coming out and serviceable in the future.

I am aware these latter posted points may be now drifting from my immediate posted need into a different OGR conversation and might be better continued elsewhere ... anyone experienced more than I in OGR please advise. Thanks!

In closing on a more enjoyable note - everyone - have a Happy Thanksgiving!

- Ken Gillig

@Ken Gillig posted:

Great points GRJ that I fully understand and fully agree with!

Your picture depicts what in many other industries would call a company's inflection point that will likely determine whether a continued existence and success is found, or the door closes.

Could not our Forum advocate to Lionel the emerging need to put on more training? ... If not with and to Lionel employees, then with and to 'volunteers' or 'interested customers' who love the hobby and who want to help create and transfer the knowledge from our elder learned masters (like you and several others in OGR) to a next generation set of emerging masters who can caretake future hobbyists as they enter or mature their wishes and abilities (like me).

I would think that such an accomplishment would feed into helping to achieve higher QC on new products BEFORE released, that in turn would help keep prices down rather than jump up the hundreds of dollars on each new year's catalog of featured new items to among other things help pay for bad or late service.

Without trying to be critical of any company, parts may be a separate issue from repair experience and training, but the parts lack right now seems to be a point deserving far more attention than it seems to be getting. In other industries such a condition if lasting too long often has led to customers escaping their loyalty to other product companies (if such exist or look like they will remain existing), OR, join hands to protest in efforts to get the right attention on the problem and keep the customers favorite products coming out and serviceable in the future.

I am aware these latter posted points may be now drifting from my immediate posted need into a different OGR conversation and might be better continued elsewhere ... anyone experienced more than I in OGR please advise. Thanks!

In closing on a more enjoyable note - everyone - have a Happy Thanksgiving!

- Ken Gillig

That all sounds good for a consumer, but all that training and setting up costs money. Guessing here.......but sell sell sell is what is important. Lionel will repair your purchase to day 365. After that youre on your own. Lionel has made their money so they are happy and so are their stockholders. When your VL  loco stops working after the warranty just put it on the shelf and buy a new and latest VL loco.

I suspect the generalized shortage of labor affecting all industries from health care to auto repair plays a role. I doubt Lionel could find enough people to train at whatever salaries they can afford, even if they wanted to.  Probably just keeping their head above water with warranty repairs as it is, much like your friendly, local, overwhelmed Emergency Room. We just don't have enough nurses and medical technologists to keep the whole hospital open at full capacity right now.

What's happening isn't complicated, really. Consumers (us) constantly want more and more features. We've brought this on ourselves, to some degree. So the manufacturers put more and more of these features in engines, until, as GRJ said, they "bristle with electronics and various gee-wiz gadgets." That makes layer upon layer of all kinds of complex components that can break, and the end result is that it takes a highly skilled and well-trained (and well-paid) technician to do repairs. Combine that with the nationwide disappearance of local hobby ships with O gauge trains as a specialty, and no organized training programs, and the inevitable extinction of availabile local repair options has been the obvious result.

The economics of O gauge trains is the opposite of automobile sales. Auto dealerships make the vast majority of their money on repairs, and a small percentage on new car sales. For O gauge train manufacturers, it's the opposite. To stay in business, they have to sell new trains. They can't change their business model, because their customers aren't going to pay what it would cost to pay highly trained technicians to keep their engines repaired for years, not to mention added shipping costs and the administration overhead expenses to run large repair departments.

Lionel has made an economics-based decision to do free repairs for a year, and that's it. Automobile manufacturers, for example, and everyone else, also have a time limit on warranties. So I guess operators just need to run their engines regularly during that first year and get the bugs out of them as best they can while they're still under warranty. If they break after that, that's the tradeoff for lots of "gee-wiz gadgets."

Repairs, even maintenance, or simple troubleshooting, not just engines, but command systems, things some have called "gremlins" takes considerable time. Packing items up, not easily done, and finding suitable double-boxes, materials, and time to take items to shipper eats up yet more time.

One thing has become obvious to me, kind of a no-brainer I suppose, though it's hard to imagine given how high the cost of living has become in the world: the cost of overseas = Asian manufacturing must be very low; otherwise QC would be much better to begin with. I cannot comprehend how busy train companies, now it's mostly Lionel, must be with repairs, and that's just warranty repairs. As busy as Lionel must be with warranty repairs, and as costly as paying shipping both ways are, it is still must be much cheaper than making trains domestically or even implementing affective QC. I am almost ashamed to ask what the average worker in China makes...and Vietnam for that matter. And then there's the regulations and health and welfare gap.

Those are good points. If Lionel could find enough techs to do the job, they'd offer post-warranty repairs and charge accordingly.  Sure, some folks would be unable or unwilling to pay the charges.  But the option would be there.  The lack of the option tells us that they just cannot mount that effort in the current circumstances, whether it is due to availability of staff, economics, logistics or some combination of such factors.

@Landsteiner posted:

Those are good points. If Lionel could find enough techs to do the job, they'd offer post-warranty repairs and charge accordingly.  Sure, some folks would be unable or unwilling to pay the charges.  But the option would be there.  The lack of the option tells us that they just cannot mount that effort in the current circumstances, whether it is due to availability of staff, economics, logistics or some combination of such factors.

The cynic in me thinks maybe they don't really want to see readily available repairs for these products.  Today's products all seem to be designed not for maintenance, but rather planned obsolescence.  If you can't repair your older locomotives, and you're a die-hard train junkie, you'll buy new stuff.

If you want an opinion as to who is the best electric train tech in the midwest it's Matt at Sommerfeld's trains in Butler WI. Whether it's Lionel or MTH there is no one better. He has the parts and the know how to get your engine or accessory fixed. 

Hi triplex,

Thanks for the tip on Matt at Sommerfeld’s trains in Butler,Wisconsin. It’s only about one hour away from me in Lake Forest, IL. I will investigate.

-Ken

The E unit was invented in 1924 by Ives.  There are probably a couple of those locos still working somewhere.  Lionel E units of course are still making miles in 80+ year old locos too.  There are some very talented technicians out there, and on this site, that can handle the repair of the latest locos, but at some point, the parts will just not be there.  That is when the entrepreneur savvy in software and circuit design will have to come along, adapting new chips to make retrofit devices you can put in your loco if you have hopes to keep it running and not rush out to plunk down another $3K for a new one.  And, the primary issue to those in the model train industry in sales, repair and longevity is that the world market is teeny tiny and unique to certain societies only, as just about all hobbies are.

So, let's get this list together so we all have it handy.  We may all need it at some time or another.  Is there a TRUE expert in the Houston area?   I would have used him more than once the last few years.   I have not heard of one.

I would second the Matt choice.

@42trainman posted:

So, let's get this list together so we all have it handy.  We may all need it at some time or another.  Is there a TRUE expert in the Houston area?   I would have used him more than once the last few years.   I have not heard of one.

I posted a question on the Forum a couple months ago asking about a qualified repair person anywhere in Texas or anywhere in surrounding states. I didn't get a single response.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The cynic in me thinks maybe they don't really want to see readily available repairs for these products. 

Add to that, when they did have "Authorized repair centers " .

There were plenty of shops saying they were poorly compensated for their time.

@RickO posted:

Add to that, when they did have "Authorized repair centers " .

There were plenty of shops saying they were poorly compensated for their time.

Poorly?  I'll say!  The warranty work was done for free, you just got the parts to fix it!  That was both Lionel and MTH.  The rational was that the Authorized repair centers were the ones selling the product, but if you aren't selling anything, it's a pretty bum deal!

I thought we were discussing out of warranty work, for which the shop could charge whatever they consider reasonable?

Landsteiner,

You are correct. As the starter of this comment chain I have acquired several locomotives from others that were sealed BRAND NEW and kept by their owners / collectors unused but three or more years since being produced. No enhancements, upgrades needed. Just get it working right.

Hope we can help hobby enthusiasts with a list of firms who can and will take on servicing these needs.

Ken