Whistle swap between Polar Express and #234 tenders

The solenoid form the 234W tender reacts to a DC offset on the rails to trigger the whistle. This makes it inappropriate for use on 12VDC. I would caution against 12VDC operation for generic 3 rail O gauge operations and encourage to stick with standard low voltage AC operation to give your setup the best compatability and nuance free operation and maintenance.

Additionally, what makes you think your PE Tender is damaged? If the whistle is constantly blowing, it is because you are operating it on 12VDC instead of low voltage AC.

You will be disappointed with the results. The AC motor in a postwar tender only starts about 10-12 volts. As Bmoran4 stated the relay reacts to DC and will try to blow constantly with DC on the rails.

To wrap this up...

The tender whistle on the PE 2-8-4 does NOT operate on 20v AC, but operates continuously on 12v DC. It also appeared to prevent the loco running at all, on one of the layouts at NAROGG (equipped with an analog, 12v DC power supply) because the loco operated fine without a tender. 

This loco has a history of being used on 12v DC by a previous owner. I therefore think that the control board may be damaged. I’d like to use this loco on 12v DC at NAROGG again, so I’m looking into disconnecting the whistle. 

I have a #233 tender which I have used with it, on my test track, using a KW transformer/controller. The whistle on THAT is a bit tired, so I was wondering if I could swap the whistle unit, BUT NOT the PCB or solenoid respectively, to perk up the #233 tender and leave the older whistle in the PE tender as ballast/storage. 

THEN, I would have a loco with two tenders, for use with either voltage as required. Is this feasible? 

To me, it sounds like the PE Tender is just fine, especially since it whistles constantly on 12VDC. 20VAC is a little much for it - probably should only top it out at 18VAC. I'm  guessing your whistle activator control is the issue here. The PE Tender will also be polarity sensitive to the offset activation signal.

The 233W/234W also seems just fine, but it is not polarity sensitive to the offset signal like the PE tender.

You likely cannot swap the whistle component independent of the sensing circuity because the 233W/234W is an high amperage open frame motor that will burn out the PCB designed for a lower amperage can motor.

Regardless, neither tender is suited for 12VDC operation.

Best advice I can give is OPERATE THEM ON AC as designed. If you insist on going against the grain with 12VDC operation, then get yourself an empty tender for $5 at your next train show. Candidates would include a 1060T, 1130T, 250T, 2466T, 6026T, 6066T.

“..I’m guessing the whistle activator control is the issue here..... You likely cannot swap the whistle component independent of the sensing circuity because the 233W/234W is an high amperage open frame motor that will burn out the PCB designed for a lower amperage can motor...”

ok, that sounds like the key points I was looking for. Would the lower amperage can motor from the pE, work with the 233/244 Postwar type solenoid? 

Being a U.K. resident, “empty tenders for $5 at a local train show” aren’t really an option. I’ve overhauled the tinplate tender on my Scout 2-4-2 for that reason, though. 

Since my best guess is also that the whistle activator control PCB is damaged, probably by 12v DC operation by the previous owner, I have now detached the power wires from the roller and axle pickups, which I hope will create a “dumb” tender for the PE Berkshire. Operating on 12v DC at shows like NAROGG seems to be something I need to accommodate. 

Rockershovel posted:

Would the lower amperage can motor from the pE, work with the 233/244 Postwar type solenoid? 

Not really... the 233W/234W tender whistle relay (what you call a solenoid) passes direct track power to the motor whereas the PCB of the PE tender conditions the power as applicable and appropriate for the can motor.

Rockershovel posted:

 Since my best guess is also that the whistle activator control PCB is damaged, probably by 12v DC operation by the previous owner

I'm not so sure that is the the definitive deduction at all. Your symptoms indicate it is working perfectly. It is just that on DC operation, the whistle will constantly be sounding in at least one direction.

When I previously mentioned whistle activator control, I meant the control the operator used such as the whistle button, either in a control unit or on the transformer:

But again, those are for AC operation...

If you are to acquire anything more Lionel to operate on the bizzare (at least for us North Americans) 12VDC setup of the NAROOG, I would recommend you stick with LionChief, LionChief+, or LionChief+ 2.0 as they will be fully functional on 18VDC (probably speed limited on 12VDC) and come with their own remote control with whistle, bell, announcements etc and don't have a requirement to run on AC. I would also recommend that you work with the NAROOG and help them become more welcoming to all 3 rail operations by pioneering a proper AC loop to compliment their existing operations, but I also understand that AC O gauge in the UK is somewhat of a very small niche.

.... the whistle on the PE loco doesn’t respond to the whistle lever on the Lionel KW transformer. That’s the original point, really. 

There’s nothing “bizarre” about the NAROGG set-up. They are an established group with a majority of 3-rail users, mostly modern stock like ETS. There are a number of 2-rail Scale members, and some 3-Rail Scale as well. They had 7 or 8 loops in full use, on two tables, through the day. I got four x 20 minute running sessions, and there was a fair amount of swapping and generally “making best use of the time”.

That’s their system and it works for them. They have a small number of Lionel users (I saw a post-war O27 2-6-2 and two Castles), some vintage Hornby and Marklin, but the that’s how they do it. 

I’m going to try the Lionel Collectors Club day in May, but NAROGG run monthly, 45 mins from my house. 

Rockershovel posted:

.... the whistle on the PE loco doesn’t respond to the whistle lever on the Lionel KW transformer. That’s the original point, really. 

 

This may be due to a polarity issue - make sure that with your KW that you have the U terminal connected to the OUTSIDE rail and either A or B connected to the Center rail. Some of the whistle circuits also like to have a load on the track in addition to the tender. This could be a lighted caboose or illuminated rolling stock, a lighted lock on, the locomotive itself or so on.

Rockershovel posted:

There’s nothing “bizarre” about the NAROGG set-up.

3 Rail O Gauge has been low voltage AC for a century in North America. It is "bizarre" to us for a group or most individuals here to use anything but.

No, I tried the polarity issue already. It’s not that. 

Ah, but I don’t live in North America, you see. That’s the whole point, really. Lionel in U.K. is a minority of a minority. 3-rail vanished from the OO scene, many years ago. 12v DC is universal, including the niche sector which is modern O Gauge. There is a small, but enthusiastic 2 Rail Scale O Gauge following, plus a couple of niche clubs catering for a predominantly 3-rail, coarse-scale users. 

I’m going to NAROGG’s monthly evening session in Nov and I’ll report back on that..