We discussed that very thing. It wasn't done because it would have been very expensive (I already spent enough on train room prep), and there were already multiple power wall outlets in the room, and because there was no nearby true earth ground, and because of not wanting to drill holes in the brick outside wall or put in any more roof vents or ingress points thru the roof, and frankly because at the time I didn't realize just how important a true earth ground apparently is, and because the electrician said after I explained the intended use that the wall plug as is should be sufficient, and did I mention, it would have been expensive.
It just wouldn't have been that simple. We tried.
I certainly agree. I had one of those adapters on another outlet in the train room for tmcc at one time with the eyelet on it attached to the wall plate screw, and in my experience it did absolutely nothing to better any train operations. Its only function I know of is to get a plug and outlet together.quote:Using a cheater does not insure a ground. A cheater is to make a 3 prong plug work in a 2 prong outlet. Many 2 prong outlets are NOT grounded.
Bob, thanks. I hope yours gets straightened out too.
You don't necessarily need "earth ground" for the system to work but it was designed to use this since it SHOULD be easily available. If you have a situation where you don't have earth ground on the third prong you have three choices. a) Establish connectivity to earth ground by running a wire to a COLD water pipe or some other known earth grounded object in the house. b) drive a grounding rod into the ground and run a wire to it. c) forget about "earth ground" and establish a local "ground plane", aka reference wire(s)/grid that is tied back to the third prong on the command base wall wart.
The link below is a diagram of a test set up I used to try and determine how the TMCC signal is propagated. The sketch was hand drawn on an 11'x17" piece of paper and is quite large.
diagram of experimental set up
I used computer back up power supplies as a power source (no tie in to to the house/commercial power grid) and the experiments were run as far away from the house as possible to eliminate issues with the "house". An SC-2 was set up with a pair of LED's wired to the "switch" terminal points and a pair of AA batteries powered the LED's. I used an SC-2 because it was the device that consumed the least amount of power (.3 watts) yet could receive a TMC signal. Two independent UPS units were used to eliminate the possibility that information was being passed on the back side of the circuits (aka through the UPS). UPS units were not connected to any outside power source and were running in "battery" mode. I stood back about ten feet from the test site (aka the plexiglass sheet and brick table) to minimize my becoming a part of the experiment (this is why I needed the LED's to let me know if the SC-2 was receiving signals).
I used a two foot long piece of brass tubing as my "antenna" and am 18" aluminum pizza dish for my "ground plane". If I did not connect the brass tube to the U, no communication. If I did not attach the wire from the ground lug on the cheater to the pizza dish, no communication. When the command base U was attached to the brass road AND the lug on the wall wart to the pizza dish the system worked the way it is supposed to. The SC-2 responded to the commands issued from the CAB-2. I did send commands to SW 2-6 which did not fire off the LED's. They only responded to SW-1 and I could see the LED's flash for the throw/straight through paths.
The UPS units were not tied to the commercial grid and did not have access to earth ground (other than sitting on the concrete driveway). I wasn't concerned about "earth ground" for this experiment, just determining the minimum configuration for signal propagation. Driving a pair of ground rods into the front lawn (and then having to remove them) for this experiment didn't appeal to me.
BOT. In Bob's case the locomotive in question works fine in one room on one command base and not the other one. Is the issue with the loco, the room, or the command base? The problem doesn't seem to be the loco because it probably wouldn't work in either room if it was the issue. We can't easily move the room but we can swap the command bases. If the engine works fine in the problem room with the bases switched and works poorly in the room that used to be OK the problem is probably with the CB. The one causing problems may need to have it's tuning adjusted. If the problems persist based on geography (aka the problem loco still has issues in the problem room) we need to figure out what about the room is different. It is still possible that the problem loco has a poor antenna and that the problem room has just enough signal degradation to cause this one loco to misbehave. This then becomes an issue of which is cheaper/easier to deal with. Trying to fix the loco or the room.
The link below is a diagram of a test set up I used to try and determine how the TMCC signal is propagated. The sketch was hand drawn on an 11'x17" piece of paper and is quite large.
diagram of experimental set up
I used computer back up power supplies as a power source (no tie in to to the house/commercial power grid) and the experiments were run as far away from the house as possible to eliminate issues with the "house". An SC-2 was set up with a pair of LED's wired to the "switch" terminal points and a pair of AA batteries powered the LED's. I used an SC-2 because it was the device that consumed the least amount of power (.3 watts) yet could receive a TMC signal. Two independent UPS units were used to eliminate the possibility that information was being passed on the back side of the circuits (aka through the UPS). UPS units were not connected to any outside power source and were running in "battery" mode. I stood back about ten feet from the test site (aka the plexiglass sheet and brick table) to minimize my becoming a part of the experiment (this is why I needed the LED's to let me know if the SC-2 was receiving signals).
I used a two foot long piece of brass tubing as my "antenna" and am 18" aluminum pizza dish for my "ground plane". If I did not connect the brass tube to the U, no communication. If I did not attach the wire from the ground lug on the cheater to the pizza dish, no communication. When the command base U was attached to the brass road AND the lug on the wall wart to the pizza dish the system worked the way it is supposed to. The SC-2 responded to the commands issued from the CAB-2. I did send commands to SW 2-6 which did not fire off the LED's. They only responded to SW-1 and I could see the LED's flash for the throw/straight through paths.
The UPS units were not tied to the commercial grid and did not have access to earth ground (other than sitting on the concrete driveway). I wasn't concerned about "earth ground" for this experiment, just determining the minimum configuration for signal propagation. Driving a pair of ground rods into the front lawn (and then having to remove them) for this experiment didn't appeal to me.
BOT. In Bob's case the locomotive in question works fine in one room on one command base and not the other one. Is the issue with the loco, the room, or the command base? The problem doesn't seem to be the loco because it probably wouldn't work in either room if it was the issue. We can't easily move the room but we can swap the command bases. If the engine works fine in the problem room with the bases switched and works poorly in the room that used to be OK the problem is probably with the CB. The one causing problems may need to have it's tuning adjusted. If the problems persist based on geography (aka the problem loco still has issues in the problem room) we need to figure out what about the room is different. It is still possible that the problem loco has a poor antenna and that the problem room has just enough signal degradation to cause this one loco to misbehave. This then becomes an issue of which is cheaper/easier to deal with. Trying to fix the loco or the room.
Very good Chuck. This is a keeper! 
If you have two engines of identical electronic and physical configuration, and one is fine and the other does all the stuff mentioned here, what does that say?
Which is another way of asking, what's the likelihood of bad engine radio boards being the real culprit?
Which is another way of asking, what's the likelihood of bad engine radio boards being the real culprit?
quote:If you have two engines of identical electronic and physical configuration, and one is fine and the other does all the stuff mentioned here, what does that say?
Nothing. Until you eliminate everything else step by step you have no idea what's going on.
quote:Which is another way of asking, what's the likelihood of bad engine radio boards being the real culprit?
If you suspect the boards, swap them.
There is nothing to adjust on the boards. They work, or they don't. If the work erratically it's something else. It could be the loco's antenna, it could be the command base, it could environmental aspects (e.g secondary induced antenna's, poor ground plane, etc), it could be the backplane in the loco, it could be a lot of things. You eliminate them one by one.
Ginsaw,
I can't imagine how frustrated you must be. It would seem that you're in uncharted territory, and I'm really sorry to hear that you're having to pay the price.
I wish you all the best, and hope some resolution is around the corner.
I can't imagine how frustrated you must be. It would seem that you're in uncharted territory, and I'm really sorry to hear that you're having to pay the price.
I wish you all the best, and hope some resolution is around the corner.
All the talk about ground rods is nonsense unless the Command Base is also connected to earth ground.
Your best bet is to tie your network of ground plane conductors to Pin 5 on the 9-pin Command Base connector. This is a direct connection to the ground side of the circuit that drives the TRACK signal. This will generate a strong ground plane signal that can interact with the TRACK signal for best operation.
A hand over a locomotive is effective only if there is a strong airborne TMCC signal from a ground plane. Since you don't yet have a good ground plane tied to the equivalent of Pin 5, there isn't much for the body to enhance.
Do not use a diode in series with any ground plane conductors. First, it will provide absolutely no protection or isolation, and second, it would probably weaken or block the intended TMCC signal.
DPC, due to the very long wavelengths involved compared to the layout distances, we are operating in the EM nearfield. Lengths of "radials" are not anywhere near a fraction of a wavelength. Wires of any length or even closed loops of wires are OK.
Please visit my trainfacts.com website for a detailed explanation of TMCC signal transmission.
Your best bet is to tie your network of ground plane conductors to Pin 5 on the 9-pin Command Base connector. This is a direct connection to the ground side of the circuit that drives the TRACK signal. This will generate a strong ground plane signal that can interact with the TRACK signal for best operation.
A hand over a locomotive is effective only if there is a strong airborne TMCC signal from a ground plane. Since you don't yet have a good ground plane tied to the equivalent of Pin 5, there isn't much for the body to enhance.
Do not use a diode in series with any ground plane conductors. First, it will provide absolutely no protection or isolation, and second, it would probably weaken or block the intended TMCC signal.
DPC, due to the very long wavelengths involved compared to the layout distances, we are operating in the EM nearfield. Lengths of "radials" are not anywhere near a fraction of a wavelength. Wires of any length or even closed loops of wires are OK.
Please visit my trainfacts.com website for a detailed explanation of TMCC signal transmission.
DPC, due to the very long wavelengths involved compared to the layout distances, we are operating in the EM nearfield. Lengths of "radials" are not anywhere near a fraction of a wavelength. Wires of any length or even closed loops of wires are OK.
Please visit my trainfacts.com website for a detailed explanation of TMCC signal transmission.[/QUOTE]
And by your own admission that why all this stuff thats being talked about won't work.
1.You never ground thru the Transformer and by grounding thru the base thats exactly what you are doing
2.Antennas for what ever purpose NEED a earth ground but if this ground is to be run under the track for this intended purpose, it needs to be grounded to a driven ground.
3.Radials are like a tuning fork.A tuning fork resonates or vibrates at a given sound or frequency and just like the tuning fork radials need to be a wavelength of that frequency to operate the way you want them to.If not then you invite radio transmission from unwanted sources, and therefor they'll do more harm than good.
Just running wire under the table for the sake of running wire is a waste of time.
David
Please visit my trainfacts.com website for a detailed explanation of TMCC signal transmission.[/QUOTE]
And by your own admission that why all this stuff thats being talked about won't work.
1.You never ground thru the Transformer and by grounding thru the base thats exactly what you are doing
2.Antennas for what ever purpose NEED a earth ground but if this ground is to be run under the track for this intended purpose, it needs to be grounded to a driven ground.
3.Radials are like a tuning fork.A tuning fork resonates or vibrates at a given sound or frequency and just like the tuning fork radials need to be a wavelength of that frequency to operate the way you want them to.If not then you invite radio transmission from unwanted sources, and therefor they'll do more harm than good.
Just running wire under the table for the sake of running wire is a waste of time.
David
David, you are sorely misinformed. Did you read my article on my website?
1. Pin 5 of the Command Base is tied directly to the Command Base internal ground of the power supply. The same point also is connected through the special Lionel wallwart to the U-ground pin (and then hopefully to the safety ground wiring of the house.) This is not connected to track Common. It IS connected to the ground end of the output stage's emitter follower resistor, and the TRACK terminal is connected to the other end of that resistor where it ties to the output transistor's emitter.
2. Antennas DO NOT always need an earth ground. I have some very fine dipole and yagi antennas in my back yard that do not connect to ground. I also have a vertical antenna with ground radials that isn't connected to ground.
In the normal TMCC configuration, earth ground and the safety ground wiring of the house are half of the antenna system. It is quite possible to create that same half of the antenna system without tying anything to earth ground.
3. You apparently are not familiar with radios that operate in the nearfield. Since we are talking about distances and wires that are 1/100th of a wavelength, we can describe the system more accurately as a bunch of capacitor plates. A jumble of wires in the right places works just fine.
1. Pin 5 of the Command Base is tied directly to the Command Base internal ground of the power supply. The same point also is connected through the special Lionel wallwart to the U-ground pin (and then hopefully to the safety ground wiring of the house.) This is not connected to track Common. It IS connected to the ground end of the output stage's emitter follower resistor, and the TRACK terminal is connected to the other end of that resistor where it ties to the output transistor's emitter.
2. Antennas DO NOT always need an earth ground. I have some very fine dipole and yagi antennas in my back yard that do not connect to ground. I also have a vertical antenna with ground radials that isn't connected to ground.
In the normal TMCC configuration, earth ground and the safety ground wiring of the house are half of the antenna system. It is quite possible to create that same half of the antenna system without tying anything to earth ground.
3. You apparently are not familiar with radios that operate in the nearfield. Since we are talking about distances and wires that are 1/100th of a wavelength, we can describe the system more accurately as a bunch of capacitor plates. A jumble of wires in the right places works just fine.
what about interference from other electronic sources? The only time I had a loco stop and the headlight started blinking I had a cordless phone handset in the middle of the layout, coincidence? My train room is also adjacent to a rec room in the basement with a TV, vcr,dvd, stereo, and in one corner I have my home computer with wireless internet and a cordless phone base.
quote:Originally posted by Dale Manquen:
David, you are sorely misinformed. Did you read my article on my website?
1. Pin 5 of the Command Base is tied directly to the Command Base internal ground of the power supply. The same point also is connected through the special Lionel wallwart to the U-ground pin (and then hopefully to the safety ground wiring of the house.) This is not connected to track Common. It IS connected to the ground end of the output stage's emitter follower resistor, and the TRACK terminal is connected to the other end of that resistor where it ties to the output transistor's emitter.
2. Antennas DO NOT always need an earth ground. I have some very fine dipole and yagi antennas in my back yard that do not connect to ground. I also have a vertical antenna with ground radials that isn't connected to ground.
In the normal TMCC configuration, earth ground and the safety ground wiring of the house are half of the antenna system. It is quite possible to create that same half of the antenna system without tying anything to earth ground.
3. You apparently are not familiar with radios that operate in the nearfield. Since we are talking about distances and wires that are 1/100th of a wavelength, we can describe the system more accurately as a bunch of capacitor plates. A jumble of wires in the right places works just fine.
So your yagis and dipoles are insulated??? I find that hard to believe and you must get very little signal out.
A safety ground as YOU call it as it seems you are very misinformed as the National Electric Code calls it an equipment ground is just that, it's not intended to be used as a ground for radio propagation in any way shape or form
I had a hard time swallowing YOUR theory when I read your article
I have a book here with a thousand pages full of scientific data from as early as 1920 on the subject of antennas and all the data points towards grounding the antenna.
Another thing you didn't address is the fact that in most houses, inside the electrical panel the grounds from the outlets go to a buss bar and that buss bar is tied to the system neutral.
THATS the reason for a separate driven ground.
Since the neutral is a return path for all current carrying devices in the house, it also can have a small amount of voltage on it and not to forget it's tied into the power companys system neutral so any problems they have can contribute to a bad signal.So now you've connected your layout to a buss that has the potential to scramble the signal and you wonder why your engines act up?
It should also be pointed out that when you cup your hand around the engine your not enhancing anything. What you are doing is blocking the crap thats causing the interference and letting it receive the signal it was intended to receive.
Proper grounding serves a dual roll.It will enhance the signal but it does this by keeping unwanted interference bled off the track.
I will agree that random length radials will work but a lot of cut to wavelength radials will work better
David
I don't know much about TMCC and I don't have a yagi but my dipole and vertical antennas are insulated. I did not think that would work either but in fact it works very well!quote:So your yagis and dipoles are insulated??? I find that hard to believe and you must get very little signal out.
quote:I will agree that random length radials will work but a lot of cut to wavelength radials will work better
David, you seem to be missing the point that the wavelength is 2158 feet. How in H*** are you going to make even a 1/4 wave radial? See this near field discussion for more details and why conventional antenna theory doesn't really apply to TMCC.
Dipoles and other balanced antennas do not require any ground. In fact, they are driven by a balun, which deliberately takes the unbalanced coaxial feed line and transforms it into a balanced source to equally feed the two halves of a balanced antenna. Dipoles and yagis (which are just dipoles with added reflector and director elements) are certainly balanced.
The old books on wire antennas were very appropriate for the lower frequencies that were utilized in the early days of radio. Wire antennas can be operated as a single wire with a ground counterpoise, or if there is enough room, as a balanced dipole. The desired radiation pattern will determine the appropriate antenna configuration. Buy yourself an ARRL (American Radio Relay League) book on antennas to find out about balanced antennas.
The third wire is indeed a safety ground. The purpose is to provide a grounded shell around appliances and hand-held equipment that will shunt any fault currents due to failed insulation within the device to a safe ground, rather than flowing through the operator's body to ground. The more sophisticated extension of the simple safety ground is the newer ground fault interrupter, which not only provides the safety path, but also disconnects the device whenever an excessive current to ground is detected.
The only alternative to the safety ground is providing two separate levels of insulation ("double insulated") so that the user cannot contact any conductive surface that may come in contact with frayed insulation. Plastic-cased devices provide this protection, and they typically have 2-prong plugs.
Neutrals were tied to ground at the entry box long before the third wire was added for safety purposes. The 220 volt 3-wire distribution system is tied to ground at the distribution transformers as a basic part of the distribution network. Using the same point for the safety ground is logical since any fault currents in the safety ground wire will be coming from the hot or neutral feeds. (Don't forget that the neutral can have a small voltage due to IR drop, or a big voltage if the neutral path is broken.)
The hand-over-the-engine test does indeed enhance the signal. It doesn't block any noise. In fact, there is plenty of 60 Hz noise on our bodies all the time.
quote:Proper grounding serves a dual roll. It will enhance the signal but it does this by keeping unwanted interference bled off the track.
We don't ground the track. Doing this would short out the TMCC signal!!
quote:I had a hard time swallowing YOUR theory when I read your article
You can lead a horse to water....
Hi Bill, again I don't think we are talking about grounding the signal but providing a plane that the signal can be referenced to. With coax cable for instance, we would not wont the center conductor to touch ground but we do wont the shelding to be grounded in order to keep interference away from the desired signal, the signal being a diference between the center conductor and the sheld.
Even with the old flat 300 ohm TV antenna cable one conductor was to ground for the same reason. Not as good as coax but ok for the lower TV bans.
I think Dale and DPC are talking about the same thing but looking at it from different perspectives.
It's all good from where I sit though, because I have some AM reception issues on a car radio I have rigged in my train room and I think I'm starting to see why.
DPC said something that got me thinking about my own house. I have two earth rods in my electrical system, one is in the front of my house and is attached to a base of a lamp post that is also electrically grounded and the other one is in the rear of my house below the electrical panel. This rod is not only connected to my plumbing but it is also connected to my return buss in the panel.
I have never had any problems with this set-up and the system has also passed inspection a couple of times due to refinanceing issues over he years. I believe DPS statement confirms this but I wonted to ask and make sure.
5:55, I wonted to add one more bit of information. In my panel the returns/neutrals common buss is the same terminal that all my ground wires, bare copper go to. This is how every panel I ever saw is done. The grounds and the returns/neutrals may be terminated on separate buss bars but they are electricaly the same, or tied together.
Even with the old flat 300 ohm TV antenna cable one conductor was to ground for the same reason. Not as good as coax but ok for the lower TV bans.
I think Dale and DPC are talking about the same thing but looking at it from different perspectives.
It's all good from where I sit though, because I have some AM reception issues on a car radio I have rigged in my train room and I think I'm starting to see why.
DPC said something that got me thinking about my own house. I have two earth rods in my electrical system, one is in the front of my house and is attached to a base of a lamp post that is also electrically grounded and the other one is in the rear of my house below the electrical panel. This rod is not only connected to my plumbing but it is also connected to my return buss in the panel.
I have never had any problems with this set-up and the system has also passed inspection a couple of times due to refinanceing issues over he years. I believe DPS statement confirms this but I wonted to ask and make sure.
5:55, I wonted to add one more bit of information. In my panel the returns/neutrals common buss is the same terminal that all my ground wires, bare copper go to. This is how every panel I ever saw is done. The grounds and the returns/neutrals may be terminated on separate buss bars but they are electricaly the same, or tied together.
OK I was thinking again guys , now hold back the rolling eye balls and answer this.
Radiative Near field is also known as a Fresnel region. In micro wave communications the carrier is picked off of the first Fresnel, hopefully! The carrier can be found on other Fresnels or Harmonics but this is a bad thing for those of us who hate cross talk and data noise from only God knows where.
This Fresnel or Radiative near field is in relationship to Earth ground. If ground is so necessary how dose the micro wave signals work between mission control and a deep space probe,at around the power level of a fifteen watt light bulb?
Not being the brightest bulb on the family Christmas tree I would guess this to be due to magic. But, logic and people alot smarter then I tells me that NASA has done something special to their Trans/cervers that allows their radios to work accross the solar system.
Radiative Near field is also known as a Fresnel region. In micro wave communications the carrier is picked off of the first Fresnel, hopefully! The carrier can be found on other Fresnels or Harmonics but this is a bad thing for those of us who hate cross talk and data noise from only God knows where.
This Fresnel or Radiative near field is in relationship to Earth ground. If ground is so necessary how dose the micro wave signals work between mission control and a deep space probe,at around the power level of a fifteen watt light bulb?
Not being the brightest bulb on the family Christmas tree I would guess this to be due to magic. But, logic and people alot smarter then I tells me that NASA has done something special to their Trans/cervers that allows their radios to work accross the solar system.
quote:This is how every panel I ever saw is done.
It's part of the code. Service entrance load center has a single tie point between neutral bus and earth ground. Sub panels do not.
AC Load centers
Thank You Chuck, sub Panels, that's right but they are common to the main.
As for my above question about deep space communications I think all our probs have a "CHUCK" pie plate in them. What do you think?
As for my above question about deep space communications I think all our probs have a "CHUCK" pie plate in them. What do you think?
quote:I think all our probs have a "CHUCK" pie plate in them.
They do. As do our cell phones and almost every other portable device (it doesn't have to be 18" in diameter).
You don't need EARTH ground for a reference plane. TMCC uses EARTH ground because it's usually convenient and on most homes it allows the system to tie into the ground wires throughout the house. As Dale has pointed out this is a system using the near field which has quirks we normally don't see or have to deal with. Most of our experiences with RF are in the far field where the electric field is predominant. Near field has a strong magnetic component and it has it's own peculiarities.
Sorry if I missed this....
Do you have any wireless computer networks or older generation cordless phones in the house?
Yes the wireless is on a different frequency...but to rule it out.
Older wireless land line phones worked in the same frequency range.
Older remote controls?
Just tossing ideas out there...
Perhaps the locos are picking up some cross signal chatter for the results you describe?
Do you have any wireless computer networks or older generation cordless phones in the house?
Yes the wireless is on a different frequency...but to rule it out.
Older wireless land line phones worked in the same frequency range.
Older remote controls?
Just tossing ideas out there...
Perhaps the locos are picking up some cross signal chatter for the results you describe?
As you might imagine a great many of us out here in trainland haven't understood a word of this part of the discussion.
Would it be a step in the right direction if I suggested that I'm starting to get the feeling that the hand over engine thing has nothing to do with your feet being on the floor...
Would it be a step in the right direction if I suggested that I'm starting to get the feeling that the hand over engine thing has nothing to do with your feet being on the floor...
"As you might imagine a great many of us out here in trainland haven't understood a word of this part of the discussion."
Low tech suggestion -- I normally run TMCC through DCS which eliminates any signal strength problems. When my DCS remote was being repaired and I was using the cab 1, there was an area where the TMCC signal would not reach. On a whim, I tried touching the cab 1 antenna to the outside rail. Worked like a charm every time. My layout is wired for DCS with Gargraves track and commons tied at all track connections and transformers.
Low tech suggestion -- I normally run TMCC through DCS which eliminates any signal strength problems. When my DCS remote was being repaired and I was using the cab 1, there was an area where the TMCC signal would not reach. On a whim, I tried touching the cab 1 antenna to the outside rail. Worked like a charm every time. My layout is wired for DCS with Gargraves track and commons tied at all track connections and transformers.
First I want say to Dale I apologize for my wording about keeping the signal bled off the track.I didn't mean to connect the base to a ground.
The distribution ground at the transformer does very little good if any thing at all because of distance . Once you cross the 150 foot length a ground starts to exhibit capacitance and thats why you have a driven ground or water pipe ground at the house.
To answer Marios question .In most main panels the neutrals and grounds are tied together but once you bring a sub panel onto play you have to run a fourth wire from the main to the sub and it has to be isolated from the neutral bar in the sub panel.
I want say that I bring an unusual set of skills to this discussion.I'm a Ham operator as many of you know which means I have a fairly good understanding of electronics, but I'm also a Virginia state licensed Master Electrician and I retired from Appalachian Power as a Trouble Shooter after 26 years.All 3 of these worlds are VERY different from one another
My duties as a trouble shooter were not only to get the power back on, but I also had to investigate radio interference complaints. A lot of it was caused by faulty equipment on our side and DO remember most of the lines in the U.S. are over 70 years old and although some have been rebuilt a lot of those rebuilds were years ago.
You can have a cracked insulator, a loose staple on the down ground at the transformer Dale was referring to or a tree rubbing the line somewhere.All of these WILL cause radio interference and it can come right up that system neutral and just like an antenna cause interference .I have seen on several occasions a faulty device causing interference that was over a mile away from the complaint.
Now couple that with all the radio interference caused by all the handheld devices and radio transmissions in the world today and you have one heck of a lot of interference.
IMO you have 3 choices to make TMCC operate better.
You could increase the output but thats not practical for most of us.
You could make a larger antenna which may or may not work.
Or you can run grounded wire under the train table and that also means grounding any metal accessories you have like the hellgate bridge and all those great metal Lionel things from the 50's and using a driven ground JUST for the trains
Something else I noticed and this bothers me as well was the fact that everyone is running their ground wire parallel to the track.Antenna radials should be at right angles to the track and not parallel . By running them parallel and using the house ground you may be doing more harm than good.
I have a earth ground that goes to the train table. I didn't need any radials but I do have the Hellgate and my 116 station bonded to it.
There is just so much electrical stuff out there these days and all of it can cause noise.The power company stuff which arcs but you can't hear it, is causing noise.The motor going bad in your A/C unit,The bad Ballast in your florescent fixture and all the handheld stuff in Christendom. The list goes on and on .
A driven ground just for the trains with radials at right angles to the track under the table and bonding the metal objects on the table is probably the best fix for the problem.I apologize for this being so long winded
David
The distribution ground at the transformer does very little good if any thing at all because of distance . Once you cross the 150 foot length a ground starts to exhibit capacitance and thats why you have a driven ground or water pipe ground at the house.
To answer Marios question .In most main panels the neutrals and grounds are tied together but once you bring a sub panel onto play you have to run a fourth wire from the main to the sub and it has to be isolated from the neutral bar in the sub panel.
I want say that I bring an unusual set of skills to this discussion.I'm a Ham operator as many of you know which means I have a fairly good understanding of electronics, but I'm also a Virginia state licensed Master Electrician and I retired from Appalachian Power as a Trouble Shooter after 26 years.All 3 of these worlds are VERY different from one another
My duties as a trouble shooter were not only to get the power back on, but I also had to investigate radio interference complaints. A lot of it was caused by faulty equipment on our side and DO remember most of the lines in the U.S. are over 70 years old and although some have been rebuilt a lot of those rebuilds were years ago.
You can have a cracked insulator, a loose staple on the down ground at the transformer Dale was referring to or a tree rubbing the line somewhere.All of these WILL cause radio interference and it can come right up that system neutral and just like an antenna cause interference .I have seen on several occasions a faulty device causing interference that was over a mile away from the complaint.
Now couple that with all the radio interference caused by all the handheld devices and radio transmissions in the world today and you have one heck of a lot of interference.
IMO you have 3 choices to make TMCC operate better.
You could increase the output but thats not practical for most of us.
You could make a larger antenna which may or may not work.
Or you can run grounded wire under the train table and that also means grounding any metal accessories you have like the hellgate bridge and all those great metal Lionel things from the 50's and using a driven ground JUST for the trains
Something else I noticed and this bothers me as well was the fact that everyone is running their ground wire parallel to the track.Antenna radials should be at right angles to the track and not parallel . By running them parallel and using the house ground you may be doing more harm than good.
I have a earth ground that goes to the train table. I didn't need any radials but I do have the Hellgate and my 116 station bonded to it.
There is just so much electrical stuff out there these days and all of it can cause noise.The power company stuff which arcs but you can't hear it, is causing noise.The motor going bad in your A/C unit,The bad Ballast in your florescent fixture and all the handheld stuff in Christendom. The list goes on and on .
A driven ground just for the trains with radials at right angles to the track under the table and bonding the metal objects on the table is probably the best fix for the problem.I apologize for this being so long winded
David
It sounds like there's way too much going on technically with this for the average hobbyist to control. But, there IS one part that can be controlled. That's the receiver end, the locos themselves.
I'll say it once again, some locos are fine, others aren't.
If we can make the ones that aren't like the brand or brands that are, or like the ones of the same brand that are, then the problem is solved. I mean, as a practical matter, and not on the theoretical level that is WAY beyond most of us here including me.
The question then is how to do that.
Which ties back into what I suspected all along. Which is, circuit board rather than ground plane problems.
Btw, I'm going to try that idea of touching the Cab-1 antenna to the tracks. I have my doubts, but why not...
I'll say it once again, some locos are fine, others aren't.
If we can make the ones that aren't like the brand or brands that are, or like the ones of the same brand that are, then the problem is solved. I mean, as a practical matter, and not on the theoretical level that is WAY beyond most of us here including me.
The question then is how to do that.
Which ties back into what I suspected all along. Which is, circuit board rather than ground plane problems.
Btw, I'm going to try that idea of touching the Cab-1 antenna to the tracks. I have my doubts, but why not...
Mario, in the far field the radiated energy is transmitted by a combination of electric and magnetic waves that swap the energy back and forth between the two wave components. These paired waves can propagate through a vacuum. Some of the static that we receive on Earth has been traveling across free space this way for over 10 billion years.
We are operating in the reactive near field, which is closer than the Fresnel region. To give you an idea of what we are talking about, consider your living room stereo. When you sit across the room from the loudspeakers, you are in the far field for the very high frequencies. For the low frequencies, however, you are in the near field. At 50 Hz (audio) the acoustic wavelength is about 20 feet, which puts you roughly one wavelength from the speaker. Using that analogy, for our TMCC operation on a typical layout you would need to stick you ear within 2 inches of the loudspeaker cone. When you are that near to the source, the waves have not yet had a chance to form into the nice spherical patterns that we normally visualize. Also, as soon as you put something that close to the speaker cone, you change not only the energy radiating from the cone, but you also change the motion of the cone by disturbing the radiated energy.
Any talk of radials or other such devices that are far-field considerations is quite inappropriate in this very near field. We have a jumble of conductors, some connected to the “ground” side of the signal and some connected to the track side. The fact that one side is also connected to earth ground is somewhat incidental, although it does beneficially increase the total size of that conductor.
When holding your hand over a locomotive, does it matter that your feet are touching the floor? No. My layout is up in the attic, and although I am sitting on carpeting 10 feet above the living room slab floor, my hand still enhances the signal. My body (filled with conductive salt solutions such as blood) is a big blob of conductor that serves as a secondary radiator to help the locomotive when I place my hand near it.
Using a DCS handheld may eliminate problems between the CAB1 and the Command Base, but it doesn't change the TMCC track signal at all.
I think there are big differences in reception sensitivity between various model types and even between "identical" circuit boards. Sometimes a troublesome locomotive can be improved by extending the antenna or insulating the metal shell on the tender from the track common. In other cases it is appropriate to enhance the TMCC signal at the weak spots on the layout by using grounded conductors.
I am sorry that this discussion is too technical for some of the readers. It is high time that we kill off some of the wives tales about "halo of signal along the track" and other such bulls***! Even some of our illustrious authors in our favorite magazine still spread this false information. No wonder people have problems!
We are operating in the reactive near field, which is closer than the Fresnel region. To give you an idea of what we are talking about, consider your living room stereo. When you sit across the room from the loudspeakers, you are in the far field for the very high frequencies. For the low frequencies, however, you are in the near field. At 50 Hz (audio) the acoustic wavelength is about 20 feet, which puts you roughly one wavelength from the speaker. Using that analogy, for our TMCC operation on a typical layout you would need to stick you ear within 2 inches of the loudspeaker cone. When you are that near to the source, the waves have not yet had a chance to form into the nice spherical patterns that we normally visualize. Also, as soon as you put something that close to the speaker cone, you change not only the energy radiating from the cone, but you also change the motion of the cone by disturbing the radiated energy.
Any talk of radials or other such devices that are far-field considerations is quite inappropriate in this very near field. We have a jumble of conductors, some connected to the “ground” side of the signal and some connected to the track side. The fact that one side is also connected to earth ground is somewhat incidental, although it does beneficially increase the total size of that conductor.
When holding your hand over a locomotive, does it matter that your feet are touching the floor? No. My layout is up in the attic, and although I am sitting on carpeting 10 feet above the living room slab floor, my hand still enhances the signal. My body (filled with conductive salt solutions such as blood) is a big blob of conductor that serves as a secondary radiator to help the locomotive when I place my hand near it.
quote:I normally run TMCC through DCS which eliminates any signal strength problems.
Using a DCS handheld may eliminate problems between the CAB1 and the Command Base, but it doesn't change the TMCC track signal at all.
I think there are big differences in reception sensitivity between various model types and even between "identical" circuit boards. Sometimes a troublesome locomotive can be improved by extending the antenna or insulating the metal shell on the tender from the track common. In other cases it is appropriate to enhance the TMCC signal at the weak spots on the layout by using grounded conductors.
I am sorry that this discussion is too technical for some of the readers. It is high time that we kill off some of the wives tales about "halo of signal along the track" and other such bulls***! Even some of our illustrious authors in our favorite magazine still spread this false information. No wonder people have problems!
Dale,
I hardheartedly agree with your last paragraph and I don't think theres an easy fix for the problems TMCC has.
I am surprised that Lionel didn't produce a signal strength meter?
I have one for DCC and one is included in most high end sets .It's just a simple device with 2 alligator clips that clips onto the track .If the signal is good you get a green LED if not then you get a red LED. It is polarized with a red and black lead. it means you either have to clean the track or add more feeders
I've never done it as I don't have a need but would attaching the base to track connection in more than one place have any affect?I know this is grasping at straws but folks here as you said probably see our banter as technical jargon
and just want a solution that works. I don't think they care about near field and far field or hay field for that matter.They just want a solution.
It's just my opinion that as long as TMCC has been around Lionel should have been more helpful in identifying and solving these issues
It's hard to solve an equation when X is infinity.I guess Lionel designed a system that works "Most" of the time.Your layout and it surrounding conditions are the X in the equation.
I'm glad mine works and I'm sorry some of you guys out there are having trouble
David
I hardheartedly agree with your last paragraph and I don't think theres an easy fix for the problems TMCC has.
I am surprised that Lionel didn't produce a signal strength meter?
I have one for DCC and one is included in most high end sets .It's just a simple device with 2 alligator clips that clips onto the track .If the signal is good you get a green LED if not then you get a red LED. It is polarized with a red and black lead. it means you either have to clean the track or add more feeders
I've never done it as I don't have a need but would attaching the base to track connection in more than one place have any affect?I know this is grasping at straws but folks here as you said probably see our banter as technical jargon
and just want a solution that works. I don't think they care about near field and far field or hay field for that matter.They just want a solution.
It's just my opinion that as long as TMCC has been around Lionel should have been more helpful in identifying and solving these issues
It's hard to solve an equation when X is infinity.I guess Lionel designed a system that works "Most" of the time.Your layout and it surrounding conditions are the X in the equation.
I'm glad mine works and I'm sorry some of you guys out there are having trouble
David
There is no easy way to measure the energy in this case. The interactions between the electric and magnetic fields and their surroundings is very hard to predict. In many cases issues with TMCC are not from a lack of signal but because there is too much.
My sparktricianing is now now so obsolete that I cross thread light bulbs. 
quote:Even with the old flat 300 ohm TV antenna cable one conductor was to ground for the same reason.
Mario, just for the record, the 300 ohm twin lead was actually balanced at both ends and floating from ground, not one end connected to ground. Both the rabbit ears and the rooftop antennas were balanced antennas with no ground required. (The roof mast may have been grounded for lightning protection, but the actual active element was insulated from the support beam.)
Dave, I like the way you summarized this as the practical non-theory issue it is for most of us. Now, regarding your quote, I don't think lack of contact can be the problem. Remember, most of us have drops every few track joints and multiple lines and on yard lines and such all going on at the same time and all putting the signal out at the same time. And these commons are usually all tied together and go back to the same transformer, which in the case of the New ZW, they are then tied together at the transformer (controller unit actually - the "transformer" being the brick or PH), but you know what I'm saying. There is plenty of tmcc signal being put out, the question is what some engines are doing or not doing with it.quote:would attaching the base to track connection in more than one place have any affect?
Fwiw, the reset feature on the engines is also in play here. You can "get them back" by doing a reset, until the next malfunction shows itself. I don't know, but I take it that reset dumps whatever info the engine has just received. Shutting down and restarting helps too. And I've also been told it helps to reprogram to a different ENG ID. Now, what all that says about the problem's source, I'll have to leave for others to speculate about. But it sounds to me like the radio board is getting some bogus info, or it's bad to start with, or it's become compromised, or who knows what.
quote:would attaching the base to track connection in more than one place have any affect?
I also think that the Common wiring network is adequate without additional feeds from the Base. I would be inclined to attach the Base wire as close to the track and/or track common as possible, not upstream where it must pass through TPCs and other intermediate devices.
Could one use the antenna for an AM radio, but wire it as ground?
I just tried that same one again. Ran fine in straight ahead for 15 minutes at medium speed, but the problem seems to be when at slow speed and trying to change direction. It was real sluggish in reverse, and when the front coupler button was hit, it starts lurging forward. Then it was off to the races. And when it did that, it ignored the horn signal and all function buttons. Used the handle to get it under control. It finally recognized its shutdown sequence.
But guess what? That's the last time I'll ever shut it down. It's gone. It's had its chance. And it's not going back a second time.
Carry on, Gentlemen...
But guess what? That's the last time I'll ever shut it down. It's gone. It's had its chance. And it's not going back a second time.
Carry on, Gentlemen...
quote:Originally posted by Ginsaw:
I just tried that same one again. Ran fine in straight ahead for 15 minutes at medium speed, but the problem seems to be when at slow speed and trying to change direction. It was real sluggish in reverse, and when the front coupler button was hit, it starts lurging forward. Then it was off to the races. And when it did that, it ignored the horn signal and all function buttons. Used the handle to get it under control. It finally recognized its shutdown sequence.
But guess what? That's the last time I'll ever shut it down. It's gone. It's had its chance. And it's not going back a second time.
Carry on, Gentlemen...
Ginsaw,
what you described sounds like a quirk in the board . Hittin the coupler and having it move ,being sluggish in reverse that doesent sound like a signal problem
David
quote:Originally posted by Dale Manquen:quote:Even with the old flat 300 ohm TV antenna cable one conductor was to ground for the same reason.
Mario, just for the record, the 300 ohm twin lead was actually balanced at both ends and floating from ground, not one end connected to ground. Both the rabbit ears and the rooftop antennas were balanced antennas with no ground required. (The roof mast may have been grounded for lightning protection, but the actual active element was insulated from the support beam.)
Thank's Dale, I looked it up.
TMCC is not alone, one only has to read the DCS forum here to see the issues folks have with the MTH system. No system is perfect.quote:Originally posted by DPC:
Dale,
I hardheartedly agree with your last paragraph and I don't think theres an easy fix for the problems TMCC has.
... snip ...
David
quote:Originally posted by gunrunnerjohn:TMCC is not alone, one only has to read the DCS forum here to see the issues folks have with the MTH system. No system is perfect.quote:Originally posted by DPC:
Dale,
I hardheartedly agree with your last paragraph and I don't think theres an easy fix for the problems TMCC has.
... snip ...
David
I agree John that DCS has a few issues too but it can usually be fixed by adding more feeders to the track.DCS needs star wiring to work right and coming from DCC I understand that.For most folks here DCS is their first experience and they don't get the significance of needing to wire it as the book says , till they set it up and have problems with it.
David
quote:I use AL heating and air conditioning tape next to the track and connect it with the ground wire attached to a metal water pipe using a screw. I place ballast and ground cover over the tape and it becomes hidden. This works for me.
This sounds fine but the Aluminum tape is connected to the ground wire that is attached to a metal water pipe. That wire is NOT to be connected to your ground wire that goes to your command base. The wire on your metal pipe serves as an earth ground.
Perhaps it is best to use the correct term "Common" when refering to the return conductor[connected to the Command Base binding post]in the 3-rail ogauge system wiring.
I realize the Common has been called the "ground" since back in the day but it gets confusing for newbies that are less than rookie sparktricians when the conversation intermingles the earth ground of the household system with the so-called "floating ground"[the Common]of the low voltage system.
Just a thought.
I realize the Common has been called the "ground" since back in the day but it gets confusing for newbies that are less than rookie sparktricians when the conversation intermingles the earth ground of the household system with the so-called "floating ground"[the Common]of the low voltage system.
Just a thought.
quote:Originally posted by Ted Bertiger:quote:I use AL heating and air conditioning tape next to the track and connect it with the ground wire attached to a metal water pipe using a screw. I place ballast and ground cover over the tape and it becomes hidden. This works for me.
This sounds fine but the Aluminum tape is connected to the ground wire that is attached to a metal water pipe. That wire is NOT to be connected to your ground wire that goes to your command base. The wire on your metal pipe serves as an earth ground.
I read an article where the author used metal tape mounted on the interior body and tied to the antenna on the inside of the engine to boost the reception. Dose anyone know if this really works? It sounds good, but alot of things that sound good in the TMCC world have a less then stellar effect.
