York tax

Kenn,

Dealers in the orange, purple, and brown halls are responsible for collecting and reporting sales tax. Tableholders in the member halls (white, red, blue, and silver) are not, nor do they have to be registered with the tax people.

Jim

There is a special foium for TCA YORK MEET topics, like this one, found near the bottom of the FORUMS llist under "Miscellaneous Forums"

I have moved it to the proper forum.

Thanks for the headsup Pennsykd. I'll moving it there in case other forumites want to add to Jim's reply and also for the benefit of fellow York newbies for whom the info might be helpful.

I have made more then a few purchases from several vendors in the Orange Hall that if you pay with a credit card they charge the tax, cash they don't. I pay what they say the total is, they have to deal with the taxman.

At the risk of opening a can of very old and ornery worms:

The "deal" that Eastern TCA negotiated many years ago with the PA tax people was that the member halls (white, red, blue and silver) would be exempt from collecting sales tax. One of the key negotiating points for Eastern TCA was that it is a closed meet (members only), not open to the public.

Despite all logic and despite the enormous benefit to the local economy that the meet brings, this was not an easy negotiation as I recall. For at least a few years before this settlement (late 1980s?), everyone was supposed to register and collect sales tax. It was a nightmare for many of the out-of-state TCAers traveling to the meet to just sell a few things, and threatened the continued success of the meet.

I'm sure any change in the York meet that involved opening any part of it to the public (as is often suggested) would give the tax people the opportunity to reopen this tax issue for member hall tableholders. That is, I believe, the most important reason why ED TCA has opposed opening to the public - and rightly so IMO.

The orange, purple and brown hall vendors are supposed to be dealers who earn a significant portion of their income from train sales. As dealers, they are required to register with the PA tax people and collect sales tax. Whether they calculate tax separately or include tax in the selling price is up to them, so long as they keep records and pay the required tax on sales to PA. But, as Jeff points out, I'm sure the tax people are watching.

Just call me Pandora.

Jim

Jim that is a very interesting post. I agree that now is not a time to revisit the sales tax issue. Most states are so tax hungry right now I'm sure they would want tax on everything. Shhhhhhhh...mums the word Pandora. 

Jim Policastro has provided an accurate summation of things, as I recall it being presented to me back in my early days with Greenberg Publishing Company.  If the meet was to be opened to the general public, you can be quite sure things would change in short order.

And, yes, Pennsylvania tax people do monitor the situation closely.

Jim, I hope your exellent sales tax history/overview will put the "open York to the public" nonsense to bed.

Somehow I doubt it.  I suspect that many of the proponents of opening York to the public are interested in doing so for selfish reasons (like not having to support the TCA through membership dues).

Andy

Yes, you're certainly right about that, but don't overlook the dealers and manufacturers (some of them, at least), who have been pursuing the same objective with equally selfish motives.

If/when the day comes when all sellers have to charge, keep track of, and pay taxes on every purchase, the York Meet, outside the dealer halls, will wither so fast it'll make your head spin.

quote:

Yes, you're certainly right about that, but don't overlook the dealers and manufacturers (some of them, at least), who have been pursuing the same objective with equally selfish motives.

IMHO, most of the dealers, manufacturers, and publishing houses that have been calling for the show to open to the public having been doing so for purely selfish reasons.

Some TCA members  seem to think that opening the show will "grow the hobby".
IMHO, the show is structured to be interesting to people who are already into trains, and would not present the hobby in the best light to the general public. I think the halls are too busy, the isles are too crowded, the prices are too high, and there aren't enough displays (operating layouts) for the public. The emphasis certainly isn't on the beginner on a budget.

I don't see how opening the show to the public would affect TCA dues. It's an Eastern Division show, I believe the money stays within the Eastern Divison unless Eastern makes a donation to national.
IMHO, making the show public would cause membership to drop, not grow, as those who only belong to attend the show drop out.

Right on..BURF. Too bad we can't meet..

It wouldn't affect the dues, but it would affect the revenue collected from dues (and all programs and services that rely on the dues), as you point out later:

IMHO, making the show public would cause membership to drop, not grow, as those who only belong to attend the show drop out.

Opening the meet might have a short term benefit to dealers and manufacturers, but I think it would end up killing the meet altogether, and who would benefit then?  I know that if the member halls went away, and only the dealer halls were left, I would stop going to York, and I wonder how many others would still bother to attend?  I would imagine the same number that attend the Greenberg shows, and how do those compare to York again, space-wise?  Do they occupy the Orange, Purple and Brown Hall buildings the way York does?  Do these same dealers and manufacturers attend the Greenberg shows at the Expo Center?

Andy

quote:

I know that if the member halls went away, and only the dealer halls were left, I would stop going to York, and I wonder how many others would still bother to attend?

While I do visit the dealer halls, and make some purchases there, I certainly would not make the trip if there were only dealer halls. Some of my friends don't even bother to check those halls out.

As an aside, in my area, one does not have to be a dealer to get a table at the occasional Greenberg show but a NYS tax number is required. I know a fair number of hobbiests who have tax numbers just so they can try to sell their surplus at the local shows.

At one time, the clear majority of people who had tables at the local shows I've attended were hobbiests. With the possible exception of folks selling parts, it was rare for a local business to get a table. Even the parts guys were only running hobby businesses, having other primary source(s) of income.

The ONLY table at York in any of the dealer halls where I paid sales tax was Miller's Engineering.

Alluded to above, and a very thought provoking comment it was, is to wonder if dealers incorporate the sales tax into the asking price.  Personally I don't think so.  Two reasons for me to say so:

1. At my first trip to York I bought an engine from Charles Ro.  I paid cash.  When I asked for a receipt Charlie himself said that if I wanted a receipt he'd have to add tax to the bill.  No receipt.

2. Sometimes before I go to York, I check prices at the LHS, just to see.  If the price there is comparable to the price I get at York, I'll buy local just to help him out.  I have yet to "help him out", if you get my meaning.  This past York I spent about $500 to $600 and I KNOW that I saved over $150 buying at York.

- walt

Uh...not quite true, Walt.  While it may be true that some (very few) dealers at York do add sales tax on top of the sale price, most at York simply roll the sales tax into the total selling price and then pay the PA tax folks the proper percentage based on total sales.  Much easier to keep track of things that way.

So, even if you didn't know it, you did indeed pay sales tax on items you bought from any of the "regular" dealers in the dealer halls.  In effect, you got a slightly better price per item than you thought you did.

Allan, I doubt that most of the dealers pay the proper tax to the state of Pennsylvania for what they sell at York.

Might this be retained as an answer to "Frequent Provocations by Outside Agitators -- Item No. 1"?

It was the late 1970s.  I was just a kid and Mike Wolfe was manning Jerry Williams's table.  Revenooers were all over the place.  Terrible mood with everyone watching over one's shoulder and whispering -- or at least how I remember it.  And in those days there were no "dealer halls."

We give a good portion of our lives working to pay all the various taxes. We do get quite a bit in return but it does sour the picture when our taxes are ill used. It also leaves a bad feeling if they haunt the train halls in search of violaters. I can see tax on new items but I believe the dealers have to pay tax on used items they sell. Double tax on same item?  Correct me if I am wrong, I actually hope I am. 

You have to pay sales tax on a used car -- even if you buy it out of state.

I'd be careful about calling sellers at York 'selfish' for wanting to have the meet open to the public. Are we 'selfish' for wanting to buy stuff without paying sales tax? Personally I like the meet the way it is, but let's not denigrate sellers for wanting to do what sellers do....sell stuff to as many people as possible.

You can "doubt" as much as you care to, but I guess I have a little more faith in the basic honesty and trustworthiness of people than you do.  I know that we settle-up with the PA tax folks after each York Meet, and I have no reason to doubt that other dealers do as well.

Allan, Welcome to the real world....Why won't you change the meet opening on Thursday to 12 noon on your home page?

Eddie, noon is lunch time   cannot compete with that!

It's not really "sellers", it's "dealers" and where you don't like the gov'ment taking tax dollars, I don't like TCA money, sweat, and tears -- some blood, too -- going to subsidize marketing & advertising for dealers and assorted business interests.  Particularly at the expense of the quality of life for the membership at large.  It's a private meet put on by a not-for-profit organization staffed by volunteers and not JUST so a few can make a quick buck.  It's also not geared for children.

In my view, the dealers/manufacturers, etc. owe Eastern Division & the TCA a great deal, and NOT the other way around.  And I think the Founding Fathers had a point when they considered banning dealers from membership. They wanted a social organization foremost with some commercial activities.

I have attended Greenberg shows at York, which are held in Janurary. They fill approx. half of the orange hall (the rest is walled-off). You see the usual Greenberg dealers, not Miller, Arttista, Scenic Express, and other "big draw" names that you see at York.

quote:

In my view, the dealers/manufacturers, etc. owe Eastern Division & the TCA a great deal, and NOT the other way around.  And I think the Founding Fathers had a point when they considered banning dealers from membership. They wanted a social organization foremost with some commercial activities.

I agree. The number of dealers at the York show seems to have exploded when the Orange hall opened. I certainly don't have a problem with the dealers being there, so long as the quality of the show is not diminished for collectors.

Because I want everybody to be there at 9 a.m.--when I have to be there--so they can stand around in eager anticipation while awaiting the Thursday noon opening.

Seriously, though, if you see something on the OGR home page that needs to be changed, send an alert to the Webmaster (that ain't me).  I don't have access to making changes there.

BURF, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU AGAIN.

Well said. Thank you.

Jim

quote:

 I don't like TCA money, sweat, and tears -- some blood, too -- going to subsidize marketing & advertising for dealers and assorted business interests.  Particularly at the expense of the quality of life for the membership at large.  It's a private meet put on by a not-for-profit organization staffed by volunteers and not JUST so a few can make a quick buck.  It's also not geared for children.

I agree, including business interests such as Lionel, MTH, and whoever else is selling trains.

I am surprised at the hostility toward those evil 'dealers and assorted business interests' at York. Frankly if not for those guys I'm not sure what York would be like. I'm sure I would not spend 4 days a year there spending considerable money on travel, hotels, dining, not to mention purchases at the meet. Just doing my best to spread the wealth around, ya know!

Just a reminder:  no one is or has ever been forced to attend/buy/sell.

If TCA-ED is so outrageously offensive to you, then don't go.

If taxation at York is bankrupting you, save your money and stay home.

Enough whinning already-maybe ALL York topics should be removed by the moderator.

Most of us go to have fun.

WOW... it's VERY interesting to see that there really is a significant schism of sorts between the "old guard" of toy train collecting (using the term "old guard" respectfully) and those more interested in toy train operating these days.  I had always heard about this phenomenon, but it's actually quite eye-opening to see it right here on the forum.  We all love this hobby, but oh SUCH different attitudes among the crowd!!!

For the record, I wouldn't even bother driving out to York if there were no Orange, Purple, or Brown halls with "evil dealers and assorted business interests".    Wouldn't be worth my time, based on my operating interests.  Sure... I'd miss out on the comraderie, but that can be had elsewhere these days (i.e., local clubs, operating sessions, terrific places like the NJ Hirailers open houses, etc...).

But I guess the big difference with my point of view is I'm more than happy to see the other halls at York still be "member halls" for TCA members to sell their wares too.  Doesn't necessarily interest me, but I hold no animosity toward them being there.  

What I really don't understand though is -- as Chuck called it -- the outward hostility being expressed toward dealers and manufacturers by some as if these entities are invading York rather than co-existing peacefully with the meet's more traditional origins.  Sorry to come right out and say it guys -- but that's such an antiquated way of thinking on the part of the old guard.  I just hope and pray that if the TCA is gonna have any chance of reaching a new generation of toy train enthusiasts, I'd ask that folks carrying the "old guard" way of thinking to please check their attitudes at the fairgrounds gate.

And oh by the way... if you actually think the likes of Lionel, MTH, Atlas-O and others NEED York to get their marketing efforts off the ground, you're pretty much living on another planet.  Yes, I'm sure they'd certainly leverage having a bunch of toy train enthusiasts all gathered together in one place for a couple of days.  They'd be fools not too.  But do they really NEED York to be successful in executing their marketing strategies?  Heck, NO!!!  Not in this day and age!  Get a grip, people... and pull your collective (no pun intended) heads out of the sand (or wherever else they might be).

David

As it is presently organized, the York Meet serves hobbyists of all persuasions...collectors, operators, and those who are a combination of both.  Were that to change to any significant extent, the event would be significantly diminished and you would likely see the meet rather quickly die-off.  

The social aspect--the bringing together of like-minded individuals (TCA members) who are devoted to the toy train hobby--is, and always has been, the "glue" that holds the whole thing together.

There is no other train meet in the entire world quite like the York Meet, and I'm just happy that I have been able to experience the "happening" many times over the years.  Despite my occasional well-intended criticism of certain rules or policies, I will always be extremely grateful to the hard-working volunteers of the Eastern Division for the singularly unique experience they have provided for so many years.

quote:

But I guess the big difference with my point of view is I'm more than happy to see the other halls at York still be "member halls" for TCA members to sell their wares too.  Doesn't necessarily interest me, but I hold no animosity toward them being there.  

Most collectors, myself included, welcome operators, and don't have any issues with the dealer halls. Otherwise the halls never would have come into being. In fact, the newest and nicest hall (orange) is for dealers.

IMHO, any "hostility" comes from the heavy lobbying about opening the show to the public that was made several years ago by several of the commerical interests. At least one of those interests threatened to stop attending. 

quote:

Enough whinning already-maybe ALL York topics should be removed by the moderator.

I agree. The owner of this board recently posted a comment stating something along the lines that Ebay threads are not allowed because they are typically divisive, and reflect poorly on they hobby. I think many of the York train show topics could easily fit that description too.