Zinc Pest Strikes Again!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I disassembled my K-Line Plymouth to see about sticking a ERR MiniCommander 2 in, and guess what I found!  I suspect I won't be using this smoke unit!

First time I've seen this in the K-Line Plymouth, good thing it wasn't the actual locomotive body!

I don't know about you, but this zinc thing is getting old.

John, …I’ll assume you’d like this in your box with your Hogwarts build?…..it must be your lucky day,…..looks like someone took a drill to the big hole, but to be sure you can fashion your stack back in it,…..this unit is zinc pest free!…..😉

Pat

Hmmm - I wonder if some epoxy would hold it together to keep it usable?

I think it may be past epoxy!

Duct Tape?

Jon

Sad to see, in the modern era that this is still an issue, when it can completely  gotten rid of

That's bad news, something else to worry about. On a happier note, Harmonyards to the rescue.

It's amazing that we keep seeing this.  I've had a number of MTH smoke units crumble in my hand with the same issue, most were 15-20 years old.  I have to wonder in another 10-15 years, how many more diecast parts will succumb to the problem?

I never knew any internal parts were diecast. I figured the shell and trucks were the only concern.

FYI...The smoke unit on my MTH Genesis P42 #20-2189-1 totally disintegrated due to zinc pest.

@Will Ebbert posted:

I never knew any internal parts were diecast. I figured the shell and trucks were the only concern.

All the smoke units used to be diecast, now Lionel is using plastic for the new stuff.  AFAIK, MTH still uses diecast for their smoke units.

John do you think the plastic is any better.  being exposed to high temps repeatedly, I would think they would become brittle, like a plastic impeller in an automobile water pump.

It’s the luck of the draw where the vendor gets their raw material from……..not all zinc castings, or zamac castings are doomed to failure, …….I believe it’s the raw material vendor that either A. accidentally produces a bad batch of ingots, or B. don’t care that they produced a bad batch of ingots…….

Pat

@coach joe posted:

John do you think the plastic is any better.  being exposed to high temps repeatedly, I would think they would become brittle, like a plastic impeller in an automobile water pump.

I have no idea what kind of Plastic Lionel uses for the smoke units.  If it's a cousin of Bakelite, it would be very temperature resistant, but I really don't know.

Yes John,  this Zinc issue is sad. I have a beautiful 6-38076 Chesapeake Ohio 2699. Runs perfectly and smokes beautifully. Just this week I have a zinc issue. Part of shell broke. Just ordered  a Pere Marquette shell that should work.

Wow, Ron.  So glad you were able to get a replacement shell.  How about posting a pic?  Also, did Rich or Alan ever create a pinned thread on this Forum where known affected pieces can be catalogued, so others know what to look for?

Ted, the shell where you screw the chassis into shell are breaking apart. So now I can’t screw the chassis to the shell. I’m on vacation right now, so can’t do pictures as of now. It took a lot of searching to find shell because they’re not available. Lucky and found a shell for a legacy in a newer model that is a match.

@harmonyards posted:

It’s the luck of the draw where the vendor gets their raw material from……..not all zinc castings, or zamac castings are doomed to failure, …….I believe it’s the raw material vendor that either A. accidentally produces a bad batch of ingots, or B. don’t care that they produced a bad batch of ingots…….

Pat

I think whether or not one encounters zinc pest, IS the luck of the draw, along with how many steam locomotives are in one’s collection.

As a smaller operator, I’ve had probably no more than 6 or 7 die cast steam locomotives over the past twelve years ( I’m more of a diesel man), all Lionel. And in that time, have never experienced any zinc pest.

It’s likely and proportionate, that the more locomotives one has over a longer period of time, zinc pest will eventually getcha. 😉

@Ron Casamento posted:

Yes John,  this Zinc issue is sad. I have a beautiful 6-38076 Chesapeake Ohio 2699. Runs perfectly and smokes beautifully. Just this week I have a zinc issue. Part of shell broke. Just ordered  a Pere Marquette shell that should work.

Not necessarily zinc pest. Was the entire shell warping and showing cracks throughout? It could have simply broken from a casting problem or a fall.

Jim, that could be, but two or three spots broke at screw areas near or on screw mount. Threads etc broke and sort of crumbled. I see no crazing thou.

Odds are, anyone will experience zinc pest at some point especially if they have a lot of equipment.  However, it's not totally luck-of-the-draw.  You shouldn't find one random part affected on one random locomotive model, rather, it would generally be a whole batch of a specific part that's affected.  For instance, these are just a few well-documented cases:

- Acela locomotive wheel journals

- JLC Allegheny front steam pipes and rear water hatch

- Atlas O Master Line 40' PS-1 boxcar ladders and grab irons from the early/mid 2000's

- JLC GG1 truck frames

Now, if you have one of these or other affected models, whether your particular piece will have the issue is luck-of-the-draw.  But I would say you're extraordinarily unlikely to have the only known case of zinc pest on a particular model.  For this reason, I think documenting cases of zinc pest is well worthwhile, both to raise awareness and to provide the opportunity for folks to share remedies or seek out solutions such as 3D printing or what not.

@Ron Casamento posted:

Jim, that could be, but two or three spots broke at screw areas near or on screw mount. Threads etc broke and sort of crumbled. I see no crazing thou.

Zinc pest is very distinctive. Some sort of casting or design problem in your case. Doesn’t matter in the end, given that you had to replace the shell. But so far Chinese-made shells have not exhibited zinc pest. Frames, couplers, smoke units and (on my MTH GS4) streamlined skirting have been reported, all too frequently.

Such parts manufacturing in China is often outsourced by the main factory to small manufacturers, who have been described as “garage” industries — very small operations. As Pat has said above, they are either careless or simply don’t care about the quality of their work.

The problem is that no one seems to be vetting these garage manufacturers. Not the main factory. Not the importers. Not the Chinese government. So we are the victims left to deal with the result.

@harmonyards posted:

It’s the luck of the draw where the vendor gets their raw material from……..not all zinc castings, or zamac castings are doomed to failure, …….I believe it’s the raw material vendor that either A. accidentally produces a bad batch of ingots, or B. don’t care that they produced a bad batch of ingots…….

Pat

My guess is B , and the fact that sprues and trees are recast ,too many times , corrupting the ingots. You may also as why this is a problem in O gauge 3 rail and no where else in the hobby industry

@Jim R. posted:

Not necessarily zinc pest. Was the entire shell warping and showing cracks throughout? It could have simply broken from a casting problem or a fall.

The 2004 run of TMCC scale Berkshires are starting to exhibit zinc pest on the boiler castings. Not the frames, cabs, smokebox doors, etc, just the boiler castings.

I have a Lionel UP auxiliary water tender from the late 90s or early 2000s that has begun crumbling. The stirrup steps and handrail stanchions have all begun popping off. There is also bubbling under the paint on the body although the unpainted inside does look solid.

@Lou1985 posted:

The 2004 run of TMCC scale Berkshires are starting to exhibit zinc pest on the boiler castings. Not the frames, cabs, smokebox doors, etc, just the boiler castings.

Are you talking about the K-Line scale Berkshire? I took some pictures of mine this week and didn't see any problem.

MELGAR

@Lou1985 posted:

The 2004 run of TMCC scale Berkshires are starting to exhibit zinc pest on the boiler castings. Not the frames, cabs, smokebox doors, etc, just the boiler castings.

Photos please.

@MELGAR posted:

Are you talking about the K-Line scale Berkshire? I took some pictures of mine this week and didn't see any problem.

MELGAR

Nope. Lionel models of the late Lima/NKP Berkshire produced with TMCC around 2004.

@Jim R. posted:

Photos please.

Ta Da.

Pat, @harmonyards, probably has more.

Piling on a bit here...Add to the list of horrors all the couplers on the set of four (4) MTH 20-6519 Amtrak Amfleet Passenger Cars from 1998. Fortunately MTH has recently re-stocked the replacement couplers to make the set usable again.

@Lou1985 posted:

Ta Da.

Wow, I thought there were rules against posting graphic pictures on this forum!  That's truly soul-crushing to look at...

@Lou1985 posted:

Ta Da.

Pat, @harmonyards, probably has more.

Wow! That's got to be the worst case I've ever seen. Any chance you have a scrap yard scene on your layout?

@Lou1985 posted:

Ta Da.

Pat, @harmonyards, probably has more.

Sadly, it looks like we have a confirmed shell victimized by zinc pest. Did this begin to bloat and warp while on the frame?

@Jim R. posted:

Sadly, it looks like we have a confirmed shell victimized by zinc pest. Did this begin to bloat and warp while on the frame?

Yup. They start warping while on the frame. It's just the boilers that are affected. It's both the C&O and NKP versions. I know of at least 3 that have had this issue.

That's one ugly boiler shell!   Glad I don't have any of that model!

@harmonyards posted:

It’s the luck of the draw where the vendor gets their raw material from……..not all zinc castings, or zamac castings are doomed to failure, …….I believe it’s the raw material vendor that either A. accidentally produces a bad batch of ingots, or B. don’t care that they produced a bad batch of ingots…….

Pat

How do you say “B” in Chinese?