027 Versus O Gauge Tubular Track

You can use O gauge trains on 027 track and visa versa.  You can get wider radius curves in 027 if you desire them. I like the low profile of the 027 track but yes both 0 and 027 can run the same trains.

It's subjective, like everything else--but I find the creativity evidenced in layouts like these at ThorTrains to be more exciting than rooms filled with trains.  A lot of thought has to go into being ultra creative in the smallest possible space.  And it fits on the back of a door!

 

Following that thought of maximizing space, a loop of O27 nestles quite nicely with no issues inside a loop of O36 Fastrack... a loop of O31, not so much!

You can also use postwar Marx 0-36 track, I believe it has the same profile as Lionel 0-27.

I disagree as you definitely can NOT use ALL O gauge trains on O27 curves.  There's a long list of engines and cars that won't negotiate a regular O27 curve.  And there are even more exceptions with many models of O27 switches.

 

To answer Bob's questions, the advantages are it is cheaper and you can fit more track in a given area. Williams, 

K-Line and Marx have made O gauge track in the past.  I think Williams by Bachmann still makes O27 track.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill

Thanks BILL.  I am looking for a little bit of O27, and I think WBB makes pretty nice tubular track these days.

One advantage of 027 track is the cost, however some switches like the Lionel in 027 limit what will go through their switch because of the switch motor design. I modified an old 027 switch because it was either going to the trash or getting modified as it was beet up very badly, the switch housing area was smashed so I took it down to just the track and base and installed a DZ-1000 switch motor on it. Now I have a much better 027 switch that most engines that will go around an 027 curve can go through.

Williams by Bachmann still sells 027 track to the best of my knowledge.

Another advantage of 027 is that Gargraves track will mate up to with just adapters and no shimming of the track.

 

O gauge track is more steardy and more expensive and has more curve sizes as well.

K-Line made some nice 042 switches in O gauge a few years ago.

RMT makes two sizes of switches in O gauge; 031 and 072. Also RMT makes O gauge tubular track.

 

Lee Fritz

Well Bob, there was a time, not long ago, when a starter set came with 027 track. That's what my first few sets came with, so that what I used. Likewise today, the Lionel starter sets all come with FasTrack, and like it or not, FasTrack seems to be pretty popular (it certainly has advantages for a floor layout on carpet).

 

But that aside, it is a bit like what AMS said. You can do a lot more with 027 track in a small space - if that's what you have for a layout. It's a lower profile than traditional O, so in my opinion, looks less obtrusive on a small layout. Then there's the cost factor: 027 is the most economical of all the track systems.

 

I've done the hi-rail approach with 027, adding ballast and ties. At one time, I went to the trouble to chop down the Lionel 027 switch to literally just the straight and curve, with no added base... sort of like the old Lionel #1024. Now I just leave them as was, save for making some modifications to the switch box housing to make it less obtrusive.

 

In addition to Lionel, MARX, K-Line, Sakai and now WBB have all made 027 track. MARX also made 027 curves in a 34 inch diameter, which can offer some more creative layout options. All the previous except WBB have also made switches.

 

There have been a spattering of posts on how expensive the hobby is today. Well, it is and it isn't... it depends how you want to do it. If you can live with traditionally sized trains and 027 track, you can do it a budget. Obviously, the higher your demands for realism, the more you are going to spend.

 

I've posted this once before, but here's a great looking layout with 027 track.

 

 

 

 

I have a visual problem with the extra-high standard tubular track, and much prefer the lower 0-27 profile. Bigger curves are also available, like 0-42 which is my layout minimum. I'm messing around with dis-assembling the track and custom bending it too.

Bob,

With proper research you will find out which locomotives you can run and which you cannot. With patience you will be able to purchase like new and NOS 027 switches. Again with research you will know which locomotives can negotiate the 027 switches. As stated early on there is still a reasonable amount of the wider radius track on the secondary market. IMHO You will only be limited by your imagination and your willingness to invest a little more time and capital . 

Actually, I'm just considering adding some O27 into open areas of my layout.  Smaller trains (I already have) and smaller circles.  Nothing exotic, nothing complicated.  I may require some crossovers, and maybe some elevated trestles.  Just musing right now.  

Bob,

It's all about having fun! That's all that matters . And not getting caught when FedEx/UPS stops at your house. LMAO       

 

I've always kind of preferred the smaller profile of the 027 track. It also mates up a bit cleaner with Ross Switches. I run semi scale, Railking and some Lionel 027 trains. I've found the majority of MTH Railking engines will run on 027 (well, except articulated )

 

The only issue is I've found when putting new track together, the lighter 027 can easily get bent resulting in tight gauge which, without cruise, on curves, can be an issue. 

 

My layout uses 027 track. The inner and upper loops are 027 curves, the outer is 042. Ross 031 switches are also used. I looked at swapping out the inner loop for 031 but clearances with the trolley and elevated loop would be a bit close and restricting so I opted to stick to 027. 

 

 EDIT....Hmmm...guess this pictures are before the sidings went back in. Guess I'll have to take more photos!!

I used 0-27 track growing up from my dad's sets from the 40s and 50's.   I use modern 031, 042, and 054 tubular now for many reasons...price...nastalgic look...ease of use....durability...conductivity...sound...and because it works seamlessly with my postwar 022 swirches which are reliable and pretty much flawless and I just love the lanterns, control switches, the automation, and the switch machines which are easily worked on and easy to service and maintain...and have worked well for the past 60+ years.

Brianel:

The layout in the video is mine.  My youngest son shot that several years ago when he'd still come down to the basement to run trains.

At the time the video was done, I had modified my 0-27 switches by shaving some plastic off the motor housing covers on the end toward the curved part of the switches.  Since then, I've taken it a step further and simply removed the housing covers altogether and painted the tops of the switch motors brown to match the color of the base.  This makes for such a low profile that I can run engines rated for 0-36 through my switches with no problems.  Additionally, I can run near scale cars such as the Lionel and MTH PS-2 covered hoppers; Lionel's 40 foot flatcars with wood decking and their PS-2 boxcars with no issues.

I kind of defaulted to 0-27 track when I got back into the hobby 26 years ago.  It's what I had as a kid and at the time I really didn't know any better.  In retrospect, I still like the lower profile of the 0-27 track but, should have gone with broader radius 0-27 curves and switches.  And, if I were ever inclined to tear this layout down and start fresh, I'd go with Atlas track and Ross turnouts.  We used those on our club layout and every time I run trains down there I'm impressed with how much nicer the trains look and run on broad curves.

Curt

I’m planning to change a few curves on my layout so I can run a 751E M10000 on at least one complete loop.  When I built the layout, I thought there was only one spot on my outer loop that had less than 72” diameter.  It turns out there are three problem spots with one of them under a mountain.  I have some 027 track with 72” diameter that’s been sitting in a box for many years.  I’m considering replacing the Gargraves track under the mountain with the 027 track to make sure it is 72” diameter.  So this is a timely post for me as I see that no one has come up with a reason not to use the 027 track.

Bob:

 

You should be able to find some slightly used O27 track for sale very cheaply at the next train show in the ‘burg.  I believe there’s a Greenberg show in July in Monroeville.  Look UNDER the tables! 

 

HTH,

 

Bill

RRaddict said on O27 track, not O27 curves, which I think is an important distinction. Any traditional O engine (postwar, MPC, etc) will run on O27 track (not some of the switches) but not on the 27" Diameter curves, but instead on the 42" diameter curves, and others. I think O27 track's lower profile is appealing compared to standard tubular O track

To add to this, does anyone know why Lionel made O27 track a shorter height than O? Seems like selling O27 that was compatible with standard O would've made sense. I imagine it may have been because O27 equipment was more compressed than O items, thus necessitating a smaller profile for aesthetics, but that's totally a guess.

quote:

To add to this, does anyone know why Lionel made O27 track a shorter height than O? Seems like selling O27 that was compatible with standard O would've made sense. I imagine it may have been because O27 equipment was more compressed than O items, thus necessitating a smaller profile for aesthetics, but that's totally a guess.

 

Lionel's 027 line was originally called Winner lines, and was advertised as "Trains for Little Brother". The line came from Ives.

Interesting. So they just used the Ives tooling after they bought them out and used their track?

Several distinctions of 027 profile (not curve) have been mentioned.  To clarify the size difference a bit, both the ties and rails are closer to scale than are O-gauge.  In fact O-gauge scales three feet high!

 

Marx, Lionel and K-Line together have made 27, 34, 42, 54 and 72-inch diameter curves, that I'm aware of.  All are available with some searching.  The hangup is the switches, but I see some creative solutions mentioned for that.

When I was doing the 3-rail scene, GarGraves offered adapter pins to adapt their plastic tie switches to 027. (Don't know if they still do.) Worked great: The variety of switches needed while retaining the low profile of the 027 sectional rail.

 

BY THE WAY...

 

I just HAPPEN to have a huge stash of excellent condition 027 straight sections and some 042 curves if anyone just can't live without 027.

I have to disagree and agree with posters here on HOW to determine if an engine or car can handle 27" curves and/or O27 switches.

 

Many, many (most?) of the trains listed in MTH's and Lionel's catalog lists either 31" or 36" (or is it 34?).  I've always felt that they do that because that's the track that they sell, not because it's a true minimum.

 

I know it for a fact actually.  I had 11 PS2 Railking engines all listed for min >27 and every one of them handles 27" curves and O27 switches.

 

But I've also learned that when I want to  buy something, I now take 27" curves with me and actually test the engine.  I just did that at York when I bought a NEW Lionel steamer listed as 31 (I think, might have been 34 or 36) and tested it on my circle of 27" curves and it performed perfectly.

 

You can't trust what is listed in the catalogs.  Nor can you just think 'this engine is smallish, it will work'.   Or even the opposite ' this looks too long'.  NOPE.  Size is not the determiner.

 

As for the O27 Lionel switches, the big motor housing is a definite issue.  That's one reason I sold all 40 of mine.

 

- walt

Did anybody say - Brown Ties vs Black Ties???

0-27 track is better from the low profile look. As for the 0-27 curved track I remember way back when my father built my layout in the fifties it was basic 0-27 track and switches. And as was mentioned even back then certain engines would not exactly negotiate 0-27 curved track I have a 726 Berkshire that would jump a bit on the curves and my Santa Fe 2343 would not go through the curve of a 0-27 switch until as was mentioned some of the houseing was cut away. So with all the is out there it is trial and error to see which engines will negotiate the curves............Paul

Considering the differing height of the rails only, it would follow that O gauge wheel sets have larger flanges than O27 wheel flanges.  If I am correct, how then do scale wheels fit into the picture?

 

 

 

 

Bob,

 

There is no different between an O wheel and an O27 wheel...  They are all just O wheels.

 

O tin track has black ties.

 

O27 track has brown ties. The ties and rails are not as thick as O.  O27 track is very close in thickness to GarGraves, Ross, Atlas O  and MTH Scale Track (to name a few).

 

Lionel, K-Line and Marx all made O27.  Curves can be found in the following diameters: 27, 36, 42, 54, 72.  Turnouts commonly have 27 and 42 diverging routes diameters.

 

O straights are 10inches O27 straights are 8.75inches

 

All O gauge equipment will run on any straight track of any of these track systems. 

 

However every piece of O gauge equipment has some minimum curve size that it can safely negotiate.  For example the JLC GG1 requires a minimum 72 inch diameter curve.  It will derail on any tighter curve.  That 72 inch curve can be O track, O27 track system, Gargraves etc...

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

PS: It turns out that 72 inch diameter is a 3 rail industry ad hoc upper limit on minimum curve size for equipment.  Probably due the historic selection of 72 as the largest curve in regular O track by Lionel.

 

O gauge wheel flanges (on say a prewar engine) appear to be the same height as modern engines (what MTH calls hi-rail wheels).  I think scale wheels with their smaller flanges could have difficulty with tubular track (O or O27) in general.  I have a trolley car with scale wheels that I run on O27 track with 27” diameter curves and every once in while, it derails on one curve even though I can see no track problem there.  I will probably replace that section with Gargraves.

Okay, now I am more confused.  O Gauge, I believe is sometimes referred to as Traditional, and high rail are the same?  O-27 must have a shorter or smaller flange height in order to ride on the smaller rails.  So what are scale wheels, and what type of track do they need if O gauge and O-27 don't work?  

For MTH premier engines, MTH makes some with scale wheels and some with what they call high rail wheels.  This is not to be confused with what is generally called a high rail layout which is highly detailed and realistic.  What MTH calls high rail wheels have about the same flange height as the wheels on their Railking engines and what is commonly referred to as traditional engines.  I think O27 engines have the same flange height as well.  Scale wheels have flanges that are closer to true scale (much smaller than traditional model trains).  I just measured a few Lionel prewar, post war and MTH engines and got measurements between .1 and .12 inches and a Lionel MPC flatcar (.075").  The trolley I mentioned above has a flange height of .050".   Since the flanges on scale wheels are so small, I think they would tend to ride up and over the rounded top of tubular track on curves like my trolley does.  They would run better on rails with squared off tops like Gargraves.

Thanks Lehigh, this is helping.  Riding up over a rounded top rail makes sense if the flanges are small.  I think most of my smaller locos are rated for O or O-27.  I always thought if you ran O gauge equipment on O-27 track, the flanges would bump along hitting the cross ties.  

  The stamped steel wheels on prewar cars have the deepest flanges of all.  Even so, they pass over Lionel 027 without incident.

 

Back when the USA was manufacturing, the ties on 027 received the rust resistant, electrically conductive blackening process rather than brown paint.

 

Bruce

Well, I think, like many things in this hobby, the answers clearly define that there are many differing answers and nothing is ever "for sure".

Only since 1970.

 

Lionel O27 track was made in the USA with blackened ties, galvanized/silver ties, brown woodgrain lithographed ties, and brown painted ties. Overseas and K-Line production has all been brown ties.

To make my 027 & O gauge tracks look better I have used 3R Plastics rubberties and Moondog Express(when they were in business, not around anymore) rubber ties. The 3R Plastics brown 027 ties are more realistic looking and stay in place better.

 

Also I have found that some K-Line heavyweight passenger cars and Interurban Cars that are rated for 042 can go through 036 curves. The reason some track sizes are listed is that is what the company who made the item sells as their track a lot of the time.

K-Line made; 031, 042, 054 and 072 curves and made; 031, 042 and 072 switches. Not sure if they made 054 switches or not.

 

Lee Fritz

With adapter pins, 027 connects nicely with Gargraves track.

A few years ago I got tired of the sharp 27" diameter curves. Here, the inner track uses Marx O-34 curves while the outer track uses K-Line O-42. I also use O-42 switches, giving me more options for longer locomotives and rolling stock.

 

I think you'll enjoy experimenting with adding a little bit of 027 and seeing what it looks like and how your trains like it.  

My entire layout (which takes up a 19 ft by 24 ft raised crawl space) has always been 027 because, as brianel said, it was what my starter set came with 25 years ago! I like the very low price point for this track, the brown ties, sharp curves and low profile.

I have learned a lot on this topic.  Thank you Bob for asking.

 

I bought my first train set in 1969.  It was a Tyco HO set.  One reason I bought HO was I didn't like the look of 027 track.  I wanted a more realistic looking track, HO.  Now let's move forward to 3 years ago when I sold my last HO trains, and bought my first O gauge. I had gotten old enough, I found it hard to focus on the smaller trains on the layout and they are harder to handle with arthritis.   I bought some FasTrack and some GarGraves.  I have mentioned on other topics my daughter gave me a box that had two O gauge sets from the mid '50s and a bunch of 027 track; 27 inch diameter.  Most ties are black, but a few have silver ties and are stamped Lionel.

 

Back to the point.  I bought a couple of sets from the mid '80s recently, one from a friend on the Forum.  I ran them on the 027 track today on the picnic table.  I always like the clickety clack of rail cars going over rail joints of 39 foot rails.  I heard that on the 027 track.  It's not the same as on the Fastrack or GarGraves.  The rubber ties make the 027 track look much better to me, of course I think it's great some folks like the post war look.  To build a layout of any size, most O gauge track is very expensive compared to HO.  Maybe I need to rethink choice of track when I build the permanent layout.