1664-1684 diecast motor

Hard to imagine what you have going on from the description.
Some of that style motors was made with a tab on the side of one brush holder that goes under the brushplate mounting screw, creating a ground connection. If you have that style motor then no wire gets connected to that brush holder.
If the tab isn't there, then a wire gets connected to each brush holder.

There is no circumstance where a wire from the collector assembly goes to a brush holder.
The wire from the collector assembly goes to a terminal on the side of the e-unit. another piece of wire goes from the terminal to a headlight socket.
There are three wires that run from the e-unit contact assemblies to the motor (brush holders and field coil)
Exactly where they go will depend on whether one brush holder is grounded (as described above)

A photo would be helpful.

I cant open that pdf file for some reason.

Unless the eunit isnt there, CW is right.

Here is a page from the Lionel service manual with a diagram to show the wiring of the 'E' unit to the motor. It shows the wiring to the pickup rollers, and the 2- and 4 finger contacts' wiring to the brushes and field winding.

Larry

The diagram that Trainlarry provided is typical of postwar wiring. But on the Lionel series wound motor, either the armature or the field can be grounded. The eunit can reverse either the armature connections or the field connections. In the prewar era all of these combinations can be found. So take CW's comments seriously.  I would make a drawing of what I had and then follow the circuit making sure the power goes through the armature and field and they are in series. 

There is no circumstance where a wire from the collector assembly goes to a brush holder.

I should have qualified this statement.
There are postwar and modern era engines that have the collector assembly wired to a brush holder: generally locos with 2 position e-units and double wound fields.

+

C W Burfle posted:

Hard to imagine what you have going on from the description.
Some of that style motors was made with a tab on the side of one brush holder that goes under the brushplate mounting screw, creating a ground connection. If you have that style motor then no wire gets connected to that brush holder.
If the tab isn't there, then a wire gets connected to each brush holder.

There is no circumstance where a wire from the collector assembly goes to a brush holder.
The wire from the collector assembly goes to a terminal on the side of the e-unit. another piece of wire goes from the terminal to a headlight socket.
There are three wires that run from the e-unit contact assemblies to the motor (brush holders and field coil)
Exactly where they go will depend on whether one brush holder is grounded (as described above)

A photo would be helpful.

Thanks for the information, on closer inspection you are 100% correct the brush holder goes under the brush plate mounting screw

TrainLarry posted:

Here is a page from the Lionel service manual with a diagram to show the wiring of the 'E' unit to the motor. It shows the wiring to the pickup rollers, and the 2- and 4 finger contacts' wiring to the brushes and field winding.

 

Larry

thanks Larry perfect information to enable me to get this motor up and running again

David Johnston posted:

The diagram that Trainlarry provided is typical of postwar wiring. But on the Lionel series wound motor, either the armature or the field can be grounded. The eunit can reverse either the armature connections or the field connections. In the prewar era all of these combinations can be found. So take CW's comments seriously.  I would make a drawing of what I had and then follow the circuit making sure the power goes through the armature and field and they are in series. 

many thanks, handy to know the e-unit can reverse either the  armature connections or the field connections.

C W Burfle posted:

Hard to imagine what you have going on from the description.
Some of that style motors was made with a tab on the side of one brush holder that goes under the brushplate mounting screw, creating a ground connection. If you have that style motor then no wire gets connected to that brush holder.
If the tab isn't there, then a wire gets connected to each brush holder.

There is no circumstance where a wire from the collector assembly goes to a brush holder.
The wire from the collector assembly goes to a terminal on the side of the e-unit. another piece of wire goes from the terminal to a headlight socket.
There are three wires that run from the e-unit contact assemblies to the motor (brush holders and field coil)
Exactly where they go will depend on whether one brush holder is grounded (as described above)

A photo would be helpful.

i have a picture of the motor sorry it's not the best quality

Wheeltapper and Shunter posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Hard to imagine what you have going on from the description.
Some of that style motors was made with a tab on the side of one brush holder that goes under the brushplate mounting screw, creating a ground connection. If you have that style motor then no wire gets connected to that brush holder.
If the tab isn't there, then a wire gets connected to each brush holder.

There is no circumstance where a wire from the collector assembly goes to a brush holder.
The wire from the collector assembly goes to a terminal on the side of the e-unit. another piece of wire goes from the terminal to a headlight socket.
There are three wires that run from the e-unit contact assemblies to the motor (brush holders and field coil)
Exactly where they go will depend on whether one brush holder is grounded (as described above)

A photo would be helpful.

i have a picture of the motor sorry it's not the best quality

You have a grounded brush holder motor. The diagram TrainLarry linked does not apply. The wiring from the eunit to the motor appears to be intact. Do you have a photo that shows the disconnected wires?

The referenced service manual wiring diagram can be used in two different wiring configurations.

First, you can modify the motor wiring to configure per the drawing and ground one end of the field winding, or secondly, the field winding and armature brush holder wiring in the diagram can be reversed, giving you the grounded brush holder you have.

Larry

Swap the washer on the other screw.

If you have the motor brush plate facing you, here is an explanation of the where the wires go.  The field coil solder post, closest to you, is where the bottom 2 finger wire from the E unit goes.  Then looking at the 4 finger contact board of the E unit, there should be three wires, and counting from left to right, it would be #1, #2, & #4, with wires.  Position #3 is empty.  #1 wire goes to the left side of Brush Plate, #2 wire goes to the right side of back field coil solder post.  The #4 wire from E unit, is where your collector Power wire, is attached, and there should be the Headlight wire attached there, as well.  

That motor was also used on the 1688E torpedo, late issue, and ironically the Postwar 1654 motor.  I have that motor in my 1688, and that is where all the wires are attached.

↑↑↑  Top pictue for the 2037 Adriatic*  ↑↑↑

It used a brush to frame orientation

Sorry, the 2037 does not have a brush grounded. One side of the field is gounded.
At least that is how they left the factory.

You guys are awesome, many thanks for all your help, following your directions carefully  i resoldered all the wires and connectors, put the motor on the track, applied power slowly and it shot off like a champion racehorse, works well in reverse too, another success and an old motor is alive and running again.

C W Burfle posted:

↑↑↑  Top pictue for the 2037 Adriatic*  ↑↑↑

It used a brush to frame orientation

Sorry, the 2037 does not have a brush grounded. One side of the field is gounded.
At least that is how they left the factory.

Big oops on my part.  I failed to zoom enough. Sorry.

I'm deleting that post to prevent confusion.

Thank you CW.

(but now I'm trying to recall which engine I have/had with the brush to ground without shelling each )