Lionel 18009 Mohawk L3 pulling powere weak

Some things we need to know: what track are you running on? ….what curves? ….grades or level track? ….what transformer are you using? ….do the cars roll freely? answer those questions, then we’ll dive into the locomotive if need be …

Pat

Running engine on O gauge tubular track, level (no grade), curves are 072, Transformer is MTH Z4000.  Cars roll freely but they are not new with the fast angle wheels.  Even those with fast angle wheels arw too much  if I try to pull six 18" passenger cars..

I have the next version of this model (6-18064) and it was clearly known to have the problems you describe, but was eventually found to have issues with its electronics (TMCC Motor Drive), for which an upgrade (691-PCB1-021) was offered by Lionel.  I installed the upgrade and never had problems again.

Your model however, doesn't have these electronics in it.

Nevertheless check out this info sheet from Lionel, which I found to be packaged in the box with my 6-18064 when I opened it.  There are several comments within it that appear to apply to previous Mohawks, and Hudsons for that matter:

And, for anyone with the 6-18064, and the same problems, check out this posting:

     Lionel 6-18064 Mohawk, Improvement of Poor Performance (12/18/14) | TM Terry

Mike

I’ve rebuilt dozens on top of dozens of these Mohawks, both the 18009, & the 18064. The problem we need to address is to get to the root cause first, so is this a traction problem you’re having ( wheels just sit and spin )  or lack of pulling power, ie; you can’t supply enough voltage to pull your desired train. This locomotive should have no issue pulling your desired consist on level track with generous O72 curves. If you’re having traction issues, let’s look at the trailing truck, and the pilot truck. If they have too much tension sitting on the rails, they can lift the drivers just enough to cause tractive problems. I’ve seen the pivot arms of the pilot trucks bent just enough to cause this issue, as well as misaligned ash pans causing the trailing truck to lift on the back of the locomotive. When the locomotive is sitting on the rails, you should be able to lift in the pilot truck and the trailing truck and neither should begin to lift on the chassis. You should only feel very slight spring resistance on both trucks. Just enough to keep each truck seated against the rail head.

Performance issues can be diagnosed by your Z4000 for you. If your engine is drawing too many amps, then it’s working too hard to even pull itself, let alone a consist of cars. A properly tuned Pulmor motor equipped Mohawk should consume between 2-2.5 amps ( smoke unit on ) to get itself and the tender moving ( running light, nothing else on the rails ) ……..if you’re engine is consuming a lot more amps than that, then it’s time to open her up for an examination. Both of these locomotives 18009.& 18064 respectively, are notorious for the grease hardening in the gear box to the consistency of cured concrete. They were also sometimes very kind enough to squirt that same grease in the oiling ports of the Pulmor motor. If you suspect an amperage consumption problem, first remove the shell, and try and rotate the drive line by hand. A properly tuned Mohawk should spin like butter. There’s other things to consider, but let’s check the usual suspects first, then dive in even deeper if necessary …..

Pat

Pat is the master!  On a basic level, make sure the running rails, and the rolling surfaces of the loco driving wheels are free of oil and grease.  The next thing I would do is to thoroughly but SPARINGLY lubricate the passenger car wheels and axles.

Of course, Pat can put a Pittman motor in that as well.

I checked all the wheelsl, no biding and the drivers are running smoothly (I just applied power to the contact rollersand they ran really well, no binding).  Have the shelll off and I see no place where there is any grease to cake.  The only thing I can see is that I could remove the brush plate and see if it is dirty.  Otherwise, everything looks clean

@JDA posted:

I checked all the wheelsl, no biding and the drivers are running smoothly (I just applied power to the contact rollersand they ran really well, no binding).  Have the shelll off and I see no place where there is any grease to cake.  The only thing I can see is that I could remove the brush plate and see if it is dirty.  Otherwise, everything looks clean

You have to open the gear box cover …..that’s the lid with 4 screws. …did you test the locomotive prior to disassembly as indicated above? Your Z4000 will give you the clues as outlined above as well. Knowing what’s going on is key to diagnostics. Guessing doesn’t get you anywhere but frustration. You haven’t answered the first set of questions so we can help you either, is this a traction problem? Ie; the wheels are slipping trying to pull the train. Or is this a lack of power problem where you have to shove throttle at it to make it pull the train? You’re kinda jumping around, it might make it hard for us to help you pinpoint your specific issue …..

Pat

I know my C&O Yellowbelly was a very poor puller, even after Pat installed the big fat Pittman in it.  I changed the 25 year old traction tires and it made a huge difference, now it hauls the seven heavyweights up the grade without missing a beat.

I don't believe the 6-18009 Mohawk has any traction tires, so that would put it in the category of the 6-18006 Reading T1.  I had two of them that had the anemic Mabuchi RS-385 motor transplant that Frank Timko used to do.  They were fine on level track with a modest load, but they couldn't pull squat up my 2.5% grades!  It wasn't power I was missing, the wheels were spinning, so my bet is the wheels spinning for the Mohawk.

Why the yellow belly, & the Commodore Vanderbilt are light engines from the get go, the 8 wheel locomotives such as the Mohawk, T1, & CSS have some heft to them. On level track, I have no issue with 8 free rolling heavyweights, with no slippage on level track. 25 freight cars is also no sweat for these engines stock. So we need to get to the root cause of JDA’s issue before we can recommend a remedy ……

Pat

One thing to consider aside from the pulling power issue is the tender coupler button. With too much weight on the back end of the train, the possibility of the button touching and sticking on the center rail is a dangerous and problematic. My 18009 had that happen and if french fried the spring in the assembly to that. This was on carpet where there could be some give to the weight of the engine and consist. On wood, I think that would be less of an issue.

As far as pulling, I'd suspect 500 year old grease. As Pat has stated countless times on other topics, these era Lionel engines are. Notorious for grease freeze or binding. The grease gets so hard, you can barely move the drivers by hand. That should be a test I would think. If it is almost impossible to move by the palm of your hand, that's a very good possibility.

Pat did the upgrade to a Pittman motor for my Chessie Steam Special. It has zero issues pulling ALL of the 21" passenger cars for the Bush Funeral Train. This thing never misses a beat.

I cleaned out the gear box and put in fresh grease. Wheels on the engine turn freely, no binding.  when putting the shell back on, I am having an issue with the smoke unit.  There is a part that looks like an L that cam loose and I can not determine how to put it back.  I looked at a parts diagram and is it a part that is under the smoke unit but I am unable to get it installed properly.  I need some help. 

Well, your picture did not materialize Scotty, …..try the tractor beam, and fire again…..

The L shaped piece I believe you’re referring to is the lower smoke unit manifold for the “ cylinder steam “ effect…..although not much of an effect at all,….to reseat the manifold, loosen the smoke unit hold down screw, and slide the smoke unit up and off its mounting bracket, be mindful of the piston, and spring in the bore. Spring goes in the bore, followed by the piston. ….but once you’ve removed the smoke unit, you can see how the manifold reseats, and pop it back in place, ….then reinstall the smoke unit…

Pat

Sorry but it is not obvious to me how this part fits.  Does the piece that looks like a smokestack point down to the ground?  Is it on the left side or the right when looking at the engine from the front?

Step 1:

Pat

Step 2:

Pat

Mine looks like this so I am unsure whee it should go.  Now the part is missing??  Do I need need it? I am certain it will turn up.

That’s the smoke lever. When you find it, put it back just as you see it in your pictures. While it’s not 100% mandatory for the engine to run, it is 100% necessary to make the smoke puff. A piston sits on top of the tongue of the lever, then a spring on top of the piston, then the smoke unit is set down over top of the two.

Pat

The piston may be stuck in the smoke unit cylinder.

@harmonyards posted:

Why the yellow belly, & the Commodore Vanderbilt are light engines from the get go, the 8 wheel locomotives such as the Mohawk, T1, & CSS have some heft to them.

The Yellowbelly is 8 pounds, so it's not exactly light.  It also has traction tires, so it should easily out-pull one of these without tires.

I beg to differ old buddy, ….stock 18064 with only a Pittman added,…..😝

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I beg to differ old buddy, ….stock 18064 with only a Pittman added,…..😝

Level track, not nearly as big a problem.  I was pulling tons of cars around until I hit the 2.5% grade.     I don't have the old Reading T1 to compare anymore, but I know it wouldn't pull that much up the grade before spinning the wheels.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Level track, not nearly as big a problem.  I was pulling tons of cars around until I hit the 2.5% grade.     I don't have the old Reading T1 to compare anymore, but I know it wouldn't pull that much up the grade before spinning the wheels.

I gotta give you that!….we don’t have grades on the Water Level, so it’s a mute issue….😉

Pat

JDA, the smoke manifold sits in the area I’ve rectangled in red,……it lives under the smoke lever, with the stack portion of the manifold pointing up, on the engineer’s side (right side). The smoke unit then traps the manifold when you set the smoke unit down over the manifold stack as I’ve pictured earlier on…..

Pat

Pat, something doesn't look right to my eyes. The smoke unit you pictured did you just use it for an example of where the manifold goes? It looks like the smoke unit also has the 2 ports on top of the unit, aka N&W J's for the smoke hose to the cylinders?

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Pat, something doesn't look right to my eyes. The smoke unit you pictured did you just use it for an example of where the manifold goes? It looks like the smoke unit also has the 2 ports on top of the unit, aka N&W J's for the smoke hose to the cylinders?

I just grabbed junk out of the drawer Chuck, to show JDA about what it’s supposed to look like….the lower manifold is from a Mohawk,…

Pat

Pat,

I don't see to well... but, it looks like the 5426 in your video has both scullen & spoked drivers which is pretty cool.  Did the Central mix and match drivers with what they had on hand?

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Pat,

I don't see to well... but, it looks like the 5426 in your video has both scullen & spoked drivers which is pretty cool.  Did the Central mix and match drivers with what they had on hand?

Dennis, yes, standard practice towards the end of steam on the Central was to use whatever driver set was rebuilt and available to get the locomotive back on the road,…mix matched drivers was a common sight system wide. ….good eye!…that is one of the Hudsons bumped from premier varnish down to lessor trains as the Niagaras took over the crack named trains …..

Pat

As long as the motor has enough umph... isn't it all just Tractive Force from there?  The ESE Hudson (canon motor) just pulled 13 passengers, all starting on a 2.8% grade with six of the cars on an O54 curve from a dead stop.  The Hudson has Shore 85A TPU traction tires on it which create less friction than standard tires.  Shore 40-50A would create a lot more friction. She slipped a bit at the start (which was cool) then gradually got up to speed.

Just like the real thing Dennis!

@harmonyards, need more cars behind that Mohawk Pat.

Pat

That L shaped piece (the manifold) does not fit under the smoke lever.  I must not understand what you are trying to tell me.

What would be really helpful to me would be for someone to take a picture of this engine with the part installed so I can see where it goes.  Can anyone do that?

@JDA posted:

Pat

That L shaped piece (the manifold) does not fit under the smoke lever.  I must not understand what you are trying to tell me.

Clearly you’re not, …..the manifold sits as I described. The stack portion of the manifold sits upright on the engineer’s side. ( Right Side ) When figuring out left from right, it’s the same as if you are sitting in the cab, looking forward, so the right is to your right looking forward, and the left side is on your left hand side looking forward. You will see at the bottom of the manifold, it is kinda T shaped. The T slot sits in a notch cast into the framing. Then the smoke unit sits on top, with the chimney of the manifold going into a receiver on the smoke unit. Other than this description, I don’t know what else to tell you,….We need better pictures to help you, let’s make sure we’re talking about the same parts.

Pat

I can see where the piece attaches to the smoke unit but it will not fit under the smoke lever,  See attached picture.

The bottom of the manifold is not shaped for this piece to fit into.  This all makes sense if it did.

It appears that the photo was not sent.  Here it is,