1947 Lionel 671 turbine conundrum

@bmoran4 posted:

• ~1.3Ώ for the commutator poles
• ~1.1Ώ for the field

Are you sure you have the right armature, and not say a 2332M-8 armature? There is a ~1/16 inch length difference.

@Mill69 posted:

Take off the side rods and try running it. I rebuilt my 736 last summer and worn drive rods caused the engine to freeze up. Just one last check. Good Luck!

Thanks for the specs @bmoran4 ....It is the original armature, I'm very certain it is the correct length and all the bearings fit, the circlip installs and the end play is in spec. Will take it apart again and check the resistances and the armature winding insulation.

@Mill69 Good idea. I don't think they are worn, but there is a good possibility my installation and alignment in the quartering process is not perfect. I'll do that before I tear into the motor yet again. Easy job, but soldering and de-soldering those wires becomes tedious. Can't remove the end plate/brush holder without disconnecting the central wire to the field.

I just serviced a 681 locomotive. I unsoldred the wires and removed the brush plate. Cleaned the brushes,commutator plate etc. When I put the body back on, I did not realize that the wires that I soldred back on were sticking up too high. When the body was on it would not move, just hummed. When the body was off it ran perfect. It was shorting out,just something to concider. I pushed the wires down a little,and put the body back on. And now it runs like new.

I've not reinstalled the body yet... doing all my repairs and testing first. But certainly something to watch for. Thanks.

@esqz'me posted:

...there is a good possibility my installation and alignment in the quartering process is not perfect.

How does it run without the side rods on?

It seems like everything points to an incorrect or incorrectly cut worm gear.  I know you said you 'eyeballed' it, but........

If the motor spins under power uninstalled, and the rear set of drivers spin freely, the only connecting link is the worm gear.

A pain, but you might try the original gear.

With the motor installed, powered, and not able to run, flex the wires between the E-unit and the motor. There may be a high resistance electrical short, or a weak connection in the old wiring, that only manifests itself when the motor is in its mounted position. Cold solder joints can be a killer also.

Dave

@ADCX Rob posted:

How does it run without the side rods on?

OK...I finally got back into my workshop and disconnected the side rods to test....and she runs !!! Forward and backward !!

Although not really reliably. Occasionally just hums and doesn't want to go. But when it does go it goes well. That may just be the dirty track (haven't done any work on cleaning the 75 year old tracks yet).

So the gear mesh is OK, and the basic electrical connections (E unit and wiring) seem OK. But wheel installation on the side I removed must not be aligned well (quartering ?) so the side rods bind just that tiny bit.

Wheels still won't drive the motor, but the motor will drive the wheels.

So, next step is to confirm the armature and field windings are OK (I'm pretty sure they are), an then figure out how to properly install the wheels ... or find someone nearby that has the tools and skills to do it for me.

The good news is my milk car is all fixed up and the little man inside spits out the cans like he should and all the track switches are now working. I'll get this train running around the track soon.

Thanks again for all your tips, suggestions and thoughts.

@esqz'me posted:

(quartering ?)

Yes, very important.

@esqz'me posted:

Wheels still won't drive the motor, but the motor will drive the wheels.

Not sure what you mean. If this is a worm-drive (and I'm pretty sure it is) then the wheels will not "drive the motor"... unlike the more typical gearing on other post war steam. You'd see the same thing with American Flyer steam...

Sounds like you are making progress! 👍

Mark in Oregon

Quartering is essential and discussed at the beginning of this thread as one of the very first suspects. While there are all sorts of methods, the easiest is using wheel cups that index/quarter the wheels.

Hobby Horse is the current principal manufacturer with the HH-1020 for the 671 specifically: http://www.hobbyhorseproducts....HorseCatalog2015.pdf

@Strummer posted:

Not sure what you mean. If this is a worm-drive (and I'm pretty sure it is) then the wheels will not "drive the motor"... unlike the more typical gearing on other post war steam. You'd see the same thing with American Flyer steam...

Sounds like you are making progress! 👍

Mark in Oregon

Yes...worm drive. Motor windings test fine and the train now runs albeit with the connecting rods removed. The tools to install the wheels are way more than I am prepared to spend, but I have found a reputable Lionel repairman here in Atlanta....going to call him tomorrow and see what he says.

I think the conundrum is resolved. !!! Thanks everyone.

@esqz'me posted:

... but I have found a reputable Lionel repairman here in Atlanta....going to call him tomorrow and see what he says.

I think the conundrum is resolved. !!! Thanks everyone.

Let us know how it goes. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Any news?

Hi Rob.... I decided to take it to the local Lionel repair guy (authorized service center) near me to have the wheels installed properly. The "proper" tools were way more money than I could justify.

He said he was way behind in work, it would be several weeks, and suggested I should let him overhaul the entire machine and he would let me know how much.

About 3 weeks later I called for an update and was told he hadn't gotten to it yet and wouldn't for a while. Additionally he suggested it was going to cost around $200 or more and that I shouldn't have worked on it at all, just brought it to him. He refused to simply install the wheels for me, stating that only doing what a customer asked for in the past, rather than totally going through a unit, had "bitten him in the ***".

I said I would just come get it, that was more than I wanted to spend. So I am picking it back up this week and will fabricate a tool to press the wheels on in proper alignment and quarter. I have skills. My career was in electrical/mechanical service and I have made special tools before.

I'll let you know how I get on. Maybe document my problem, process and resolution in another thread. I know the motor is correct now, just wish I hadn't replaced all the axle bushings and drive gear in my desire to "do it right". Would have never taken the wheels off had I known reinstallation would require special tools to get precise alignment or she wouldn't move under power.

Live and learn....every day is a learning opportunity.  ;-)

Or drop me a line.

Updates on the "conundrum".... Got my 671 back and removed the wheels agaon to inspect everything and devise a method to install in proper alignment and quarter.

I must have pushed the axle bushings in too far and the wheels had too much side to side movement. Drive wheels were contacting the chassis. That could have been a big part of my problems along with the alignment for the side rods.

Moved the bushings out to reduce side to side to a minimal amount. Installed the wheels, this time in perfect alignment and properly quartered. The spin freely by hand and pushing on the track. Worm gear is dead center in the grease case.

And now....the motor just hums. Found the E Unit contacts and drum are not very pretty. So...I've ordered some repair parts to rebuild it..... Stay tuned. It will be a week before I get them.

I'm going to get it going yet, thanks to all the good advice I have received here !!

@esqz'me posted:

And now....the motor just hums. Found the E Unit contacts and drum are not very pretty..

You can test the loco w/o the e-unit. Swap the brush leads to run the motor in the opposite direction.

Took the E Unit out to overhaul...hooked the motor up to my power supply, and it spins like crazy both directions. By the way, armature and field winding resistance measures in spec. and the armature spins smoothly by hand. New brushes.

Installed motor back into the chassis and direct wired to my power supply and she runs pretty well forward, but only tries to go reverse for a half turn of the wheels and stops. After much consternation and repeated forward reverse attempts, and attempting to turn the armature with my fingers from below, I took the brush holder off to investigate.

The gears bind up in reverse at one spot in the wheel rotation and have a sticky spot in forward at the same location. I assume therefore that the worm gear on the drive axle has some damaged or malformed teeth in that spot. Armature shaft is just fine.

So, new worm gear is on order along with the E Unit repair parts. At least I now have a good method to R&R the wheel and center the worm gear within the chassis.

Will report back next weekend (hopefully).

I'm thinking side rods. The crankpin holes have become enlarged to beyond specs. with the lack of oil as the rods are load bearing. That is throwing especially the front set of wheels out of quarter and binding on the main rod. Replace rods.

Be sure to check the end play in your drive axle. The worm gear needs to be centered when the axle wheels are properly spaced. On my 736, I spaced the wheels inside back to inside back at 1.090. It was my best guess based on other locos I have. Maybe some one here has the exact spec.. After measuring the axle length I mounted one wheel and pressed it through the worm gear. After computing the perfect center, I used a feeler gauge to set the worm and drive wheel spacing. Make sure the wheel is perpendicular to the axle. Good Luck!

Rods are perfect, no wear evident in holes or on the bolts. Wheels spin happily forward and backward by hand. Wheels go pretty well in forward, but stick in reverse. Cannot be overcome by hand turning the armature, but no sticking with motor out at all. Armature will turn the wheels in forward by hand.

I get the impression the gear is not perfectly perpendicular to the axle and a few teeth look "funny". I can feel tiny imperfections when running an exact blade across the surface. I probably damaged it in all my moving disassembled parts around. Appears to be brass, therefore a bit "soft".?

New gear en-route. Will be certain it is centered again and, once again, will be certain the axle wheels do not have excessive side to side play.

Thanks for all the tips.

For all of you who gave advice and suggestions, THANK YOU !! and we have success.

With much patience and homemade special tools, I have successfully installed the wheels with proper quartering and they move smoothly. I have rebuilt the motor and the E-Unit, and installed a smoke fluid conversion kit. Decided the worm gears had too much lash (they would slip in reverse) and so added an .008" shim under the motor pins.

She runs around the track, puffing smoke with no problem. Cleaned and serviced the whistle in the tender, and replaced all the burned out bulbs. She pulls all the cars that came in the original 2125WS set with no problem. Also refreshed the milk car and spotlight car and the rather oversized watchman.

Now it's on to sorting the 022 switches (one sticks) and cleaning the tracks.

Videos for your amusement attached. We are off and running !! 

I'm doing pretty much the same things you're doing and at about the same stage.  My 671 would run fine in reverse, and haltingly in forward.   I took out the motor, cleaned out the gunk, put the motor back in and it worked fine.  I came to a realization that the old track I was using to test stuff on was a big problem, even after cleaning.  It was less of a hassle IMHO to buy new track at Menards rather than doing proper rust removal.  The new track made an amazing difference.

I had to rewire virtually everything because the insulation was flaking off and shorting things out.  The only operational 60 year old thing that worked without maintenance was the rotating beacon, simply because there is no wiring on it.

I'll be working on the switch tower and icing station this week.  The milk car will probably be next week.