1960's Lionel Scale Hudson Outfit: Your advice please!

It's your money, but I prefer keeping original sets together

The 773 is not a scale Hudson.  The mid '60's offering is basically a reissue of the original 773 from the 50's.  The 773 lacks many details found on the 700E and is scaled down somewhat.

 

BTW, Lionel reissued a duplicate of the #13150 set in it's PWC series ( 6-31739 )....including the horse coral and milk car/platform

 

Bruce

?

With or without boxes, I think $400 for these cars is a bit too high. Even the $1,100 for a 64 Hudson without boxes seems too high these days. If you're happy with it, it's of course up to you, but it seems to me that a decent 64 Hudson without boxes (VG to EXC condition) are more in the $700 to $800 range these days. I personally never thought the 2046-type tender looked right behind something as big as the Hudson.

 

Sam

Scale has nothing to do with level of detail.

 

...and is scaled down somewhat.

Please explain.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the 736W or 773W streamlined tender that came with the 1960's 773 Hudson, rather than the larger and more appropriate 2426W die cast tender.

For this to be a true set you would need a set box,What you have here is just a put together set that anyone can buy one at a time and say they have a Hudson set. Also You will pay more then $400.00 for all the other items if you wanted to buy then by themselves,$1500.00 I think it is a lot of money w/out boxes.

 

Fred

Fred, Sam & group - You all have been a great help.  I may actually just pass on the whole thing now, as I tend to agree after researching auctioning sources that the price is a few hundred too high on just the Hudson, and yes, there are no boxes, so in truth, it's an outfit in name only.

The correct cars for that set are not easy to find. I spent better than two years trying to replace the damaged cars that came with my set. The only easy car is the Lehigh Valley Hopper. The other cars are fairly common if you don't care about having the correct trucks, which are plastic, with snap-in knuckle.

Since you were interested enough to post about the set here, I suggest making an offer.

 

quote:

For this to be a true set you would need a set box,What you have here is just a put together set that anyone can buy one at a time and say they have a Hudson set.

 

That is a matter of opinion. It is true that folks can assemble a set, but that is true whether the pieces are boxed and whether the set box is present. There is an active empty box market, and lots of boxes have been reproduced. Some of those reproductions aren't labeled as such.
Many times when people put sets together, they are not carefully to assemble pieces that are the correct variation, and in matching condition.

 

The set in the auction listing referenced had individual boxes, but no set box. What did it sell for?

I agree with CW.  $1500 is a bit much, but, it is his asking price.  Money talks, b.s. walks.  Get some cash, walk in, lay it down, and tell him this is what it's worth to you.  It's your money, spend it how you please.

Take half of his wants and work your way up, don't be too eager.

60's 773 is not the best of the postwar hudsons,'50 model is, in my

humble opinion.

THe above advise comes from 50 yrs of doing it and is free

 

ROd

When I was younger, I was more inclined to dicker for something I wanted to purchase. I have pretty much lost my taste for it.

I usually will make an offer close to what I am willing to pay, leaving some room for a little back and forth.

 

Regardless, When I make a purchase, there is no consideration of future value. Nobody knows what our trains will be worth down the road.

Those of us who read about other forms of collecting know that declining interest is of concern across most areas of specialization. And the prices quoted on the various "treasure hunting" shows are ambitious at best.

The PWC Set cost $900 at issue several years ago...just saw one go at auction house for $550.  An original 773 from 1964 goes for upwards of $800.

CW - The set w/ individual boxes from the link I posted sold for $1900 per Live Auctioneers.  The dealer originally quoted me $1200 for the engine & cars, but then when they brought the set in, he said $1500, or $1100 just the engine.  He also had - and sold - a 1950s version for $1300 recently.  Based on the consensus here, I'm not going to pay more than $800 for the engine alone, or $1200 for all of it.  Just a bit frustrated the price went up.  They have been very good to me generally, and recently sold several engines for me I no longer needed..  I have some $$ from these sales to spend but I don't want to overpay for something like this either.

Since you were in at $1,200, why not offer him $1,200 cash and stand firm?

Based on your comments that is what I would probably do.
(I have no idea on what the current market would be on that set)

CW - I asked if he could go lower on the engine (below $1K) & he said he 'had to have' $1100.  Now, he has a significant clientele from West County St. Louis with deep pockets.  This one lady just tells him what she wants and she walks out of there with tens of thousands in merchandise, which never even makes it to the shelves.  She seldom even spends any time actually shopping in there!  Must be nice.  With regards to this set, I think he has someone else interested who couldn't give a sh** about $300 or $400 & hence the price.

All this has to factor into it. If it's something you like, and you're $100 out of your comfort level, then I'd buy the train. Six months from now, you'll not miss the $100, but you will keep thinking about the train you lost.

 

And remember, it's a hobby and enjoyment has a price. Also, there will always be someone with deeper pockets looking to buy what you are looking to buy. You cannot get around that in any hobby.

 

As for being a set or not, well, if it's the correct compilation of cars, then I would say it's a correct set. When I was a kid, the first thing my parents did was pitch all the boxes to my set after I got it. It's no less of a set, it's just not boxed.

 

All that only becomes important as you "season" (or get dumb) as a collector. I'm a "dumb" one now, I try to make sure my sets have boxes or will get them boxed, which is difficult because I am a prewar collector. But it has more to do with whether the set has the correct components or just some randomly assembled engine and cars. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

I would return and do the following:

• Say: My offer is $1,200, cash.  That's what you quoted, that's what I budgeted, and that's all I can do right now.
• If he says, "no" and/or insinuates that there are other well-heeled buyers out there, say: "If you can get that price, great.  Vaya con Dios.  If it hasn't sold after some time, however, and you're still interested in moving it, please call.  You have my phone number."
• When he calls, say you'll only pay $1,100.

I'm only half kidding about that last line because, if he "originally quoted [you] $1200 for the engine & cars", it would be a clear message that both parties can change their prices whenever they feel like it.  

In the current market, waiting will only help you, IMHO.

We each have our own styles of dickering.

IMHO, you have nothing to loose by making the offer.

I don't think I would tell the dealer to let me know if he changes his mind.

That would encourage the dealer to hold onto the set, knowing he could sell it at a moments notice.

 

As for going up another hundred: jsrfo's comment rings true. There are many trains I've passed on over the years that I should have purchased.  And there are many more trains that I've sold that I should have kept.

But I don't loose sleep over any of it.

Get one of these!

They are going for about 400-600 when they come up. One was for sale here not too long ago. When I was a collector, I owned ever Hudson Lionel ever made and now only own and run this one on my layout.

 

 

Hello scottn941.........

 

Instead of spending that kind of money for old 773, it really isn't that great of the engine as I had '65 and '50 version.  It is bare bones engine and makes a lot of motor noise even the large drivers wobbles and the boiler casting are rough finish so why not get the 1990 version of the #700E (18005) for less and you get a full detailed one and comes with die-cast tender and cleaner finished boiler casting if you still wanted a "Lionel" Hudson.  You can get a gray Hudson# 785 (18002) as its like a 763E but cleaner finished casting and has spoked drivers as well.  I had them all in 1980's.  I believe the closest one to the old 773 is the #783 Hudson (8406) but with large stack motor and 2426 type die cast tender.  Those engines are good for what they are and easy to find on E-bay.

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

Here is the FOR SALE link.

https://ogrforum.com/t...cale-hudson-for-sale

 

Who said scale had anything to do with detail?  I was only inferring that the 773 is not a scale Hudson.

 

Scaled Down = Shrunk in size.

 

Bruce

Bruce,

 

Other than the tender, what is scaled down (reduced in size) on the 1964 773?

Regarding the difficulty in locating the correct cars:

 

One of the reasons that the cars for this set are difficult to find is the fragility of the knuckles. Sometimes cars that are in otherwise nice shape will turn up with broken knuckles. Until recently, those knuckles were generally unavailable.

Not all that long ago, a fellow poster mentioned seeing the knuckles (566-54) either at a train show or on a parts list (I forget which).
They are being reproduced now. So far, only a few of the parts dealers that I have bookmarked are carrying them. But once they have been made, eventually all the dealers will probably have them. I will probably look to purchase a few samples at York.

Some last comments before I sign off this discussion.

1) the owner of this thread is bent on getting this engine despite all the good advice to the contrary that he is getting from many of us.

2) I said I owned all the Hudson's Lionel ever made right through the 1980's versions. The older they were the better they ran until the Kughn versions. The 1966 version was made out of desperation to keep Lionel alive. It was the worst Hudson they ever made.

3) Scale has everything to do with detail. 'Scale size' is one thing, scale detailed is another. Besides the tender not being scale size on the '66 version, there is no scale detail, period.

So, Scott in St. Louis, read once again the advice from all that you have received here and spend your money wisely, especially since you are a self admitted 'not collector' and move on......

Finally, look at the link on my last Kline post. It is a REAL DEAL being new at $400.

PS I would buy it but I already have one.

Best to all.

I think you answered you own question scottn941: "  . . . I've been wanting  . . . .  opportunity to purchase one in a gorgeous, almost like-new condition. 

 

Money and market value aren't everything . . . .  The loco will mean a lot to you, so I'd buy it.  Hugh and others may be right about prototypical accuracy and how well, or not, the loco runs, but that is immaterial: buying a toy train is not a rational decision to be based on facts but an emotional one.  Good for it.

 

The biggest regrets I have looking back aren't the things I bought and paid too much more.  It's the things I didn't buy and didn't pay too much for

1 - There is nothing wrong with being a collector. If you want a Postwar Lionel 773, then nothing else will do. The 783, 784, 785 and 18005 Hudsons are all nice engines, but they are not Postwar Lionel 773s. (any of them would be less expensive than an original postwar Lionel 773 in today's market)

 

2 - Plenty of collectors run their trains. I run some of my trains, and not others.

I stand corrected.  Nothing but the tender is reduced in size on the 773.

 

Bruce

I dont know about these engines, but I do know common sense advice a la' Bobs' & Hughes' when I see it.....  The set seems overpriced;  the engine Hugh is directing you to is better.  Bob is wise is telling you that to barter is good, but to just slam the money down for the asking prices may not be wise.

  IMO another such "want" is ALWAYS around the bend.  That has happened to me many  many times. Usually if you wait, you get a better deal.

 

 

 

Jimmy - Point taken; I agree.

Without the set box and the component boxes, it really doesn't matter whether you buy the engine only or the whole set, in my opinion. The hardest thing to find to put the complete set together will probably be the set box. If I'm not mistaken, the set should also have a ZW transformer and a layout's worth of Super O track including 2 remote control 112 switches.

 

I agree, however, that that's a lot of money to pay for that engine or the "compete" set. Back in the 1980's the 773 would have been worth that kind of money, but with all of the improvements over the years in detail and technology, I would look to pay far less.

As a side note, this set you refer to is on the b... selling for 11,500.00 with boxes and master carton. Unbelievable what can be asked! 

Let me amend what I said just a little bit. If this is something that you want, and the train is the quality you want, complete they way you like it (boxes, or not doesn't matter, how you like it), and the price is within reason, ( you should know the market, and not go paying stupid money for something not worth it), then decide if you want it. Make a solid offer to your comfort level, but do not fear walking away from the deal if you are not satisfied.

 

You need to think about the rarity or common nature of an item, condition, and when you may see another example. If it's a common item, generally found in high condition, you have a little more likelihood of running across another one. If it's rare, it may be years.

 

So, rarity, condition and completeness all drive price. I don't deal in postwar, but I would assume that those factors are more important that it is with prewar, with all the variations made during that time.

 

If this set that you are looking at has a history of selling in the $1000-$1500 range without boxes, in similar condition, and all the components are correct for the set, and of the same condition (indicating that they were likely to have been together as a set, although an assumption), AND, you really like it and want it, I can't see where $100 one way or another is going to matter even after next payday. If the wealthy lady you mentioned gets it before you do, you'll be second guessing yourself for  for a while.

 

That's just an opinion. My "train mentors" always told me that if you stretch a little, you won't remember that cost after a short period of time. I found that to be true in 99% of my buys.

I would love to find a mint in box 60's 773 Hudson Super O set complete with everything including ZW.

On the b... for 11,500.00

If you want it, buy it! It's only worth what you're willing to pay for it. I wouldn't look at these things as an investment anyway. They will have almost no collector value in 20-30 years.

2 comments 1. read lee willis response again if you want it buy it. 2. why ask other people for advice pertaining to something you want. when you go to out to dinner do you take a poll of the other patrons as to what to order for dinner. i own a 1966 lionel   773 that my grandfather bought for me brand new its no where near as detailed as some of the 2 rail brass hudsons my son owns or as detailed as any of my brass locomotives but i wouldn't sell it at any price because of the history associated with it. rational thinking never enters the reality of our wants and desires because if it did would we have any trains hot rods guns boats etc?

<< 2. why ask other people for advice pertaining to something you want. when you go to out to dinner do you take a poll of the other patrons as to what to order for dinner. >>

 

Advice on price.  There are a lot of experienced, professional collectors on here who are knowledgable on the value of postwar trains; it's not so much WHAT'S ordered for dinner - it's whether or not it's worth my money.

 

<< rational thinking never enters the reality of our wants and desires because if it did would we have any trains hot rods guns boats etc? >>

 

I've got nothing but time to buy one.  I could care less about how many rivets are on the 50's model vs. the 60's model, etc.; I just want to know which engine is gonna run & pull the best over the course of my lifetime..  The store I buy most of my trains from gets these in all the time and per the owner's advice, the 60's 773 was perfected operationally and will best suit my needs.  My guess is, the price increase once the item arrived in his store versus what I was originally quoted was due to two factors: 1) how much he paid the widow of its previous owner vs. what he expects to make as a fair profit margin and 2) the unit needed a small repair/replacement of some sort of bolt or sleeve on one of the drive rods.  Emotionally, I don't necessarily "need" this particular engine - I eventually would like to have a NICE one, as this one is, and as I said, I want to make sure I'm not blowing a hole in my pocket if there's plenty of others on the market in this shape for $300 - $400 less, which is what a lot of folks are telling me.