Well Darth, you'll get answers all over the map on these questions, but here's my take;

If it is just track with no turnouts in them, I'd say 10' would be good per lock-on. Once you start putting turnouts into those "virgin" straights and curves, I'd be sure there was at least one lock-on between any two turnouts as turnouts like to be real voltage "leak" points on a layout, especially with used tubular track. The less joints you can get away with, the fewer lock-ons you SHOULD need. It all depends on how new and clean the track pins and inside of the track connection point are.

As far as track screws, the fewer you can use, the less noise will be transmitted to the plywood "speaker" My present layout has Atlas"O" track with NO track screws. The track is mounted on Woodland Scenics form track bed which I ballasted and glued the ballast down with a mix of 50% matte medium & 50% water. My track has not moved in the past seven years of usage.

As to question 1, I believe the rule of thumb is one lock-on every 25 feet of track. Some people have only one lock-on for 150 linear feet. Depends.

As to question 2, not sure what you mean. I screwed every track section.

D&H 65 posted:

Well Darth, you'll get answers all over the map on these questions, but here's my take;

If it is just track with no turnouts in them, I'd say 10' would be good per lock-on. Once you start putting turnouts into those "virgin" straights and curves, I'd be sure there was at least one lock-on between any two turnouts as turnouts like to be real voltage "leak" points on a layout, especially with used tubular track. The less joints you can get away with, the fewer lock-ons you SHOULD need. It all depends on how new and clean the track pins and inside of the track connection point are.

As far as track screws, the fewer you can use, the less noise will be transmitted to the plywood "speaker" My present layout has Atlas"O" track with NO track screws. The track is mounted on Woodland Scenics form track bed which I ballasted and glued the ballast down with a mix of 50% matte medium & 50% water. My track has not moved in the past seven years of usage.

Thanks, I was planning in the 7 ft range between lockons since I've seen many different views and 6-8ft seemed to turn up alot. As far as track screws, I got 3/4" homosote on top of the plywood so it runs really pretty quiet.

LaramieJoe posted:

As to question 1, I believe the rule of thumb is one lock-on every 25 feet of track. Some people have only one lock-on for 150 linear feet. Depends.

As to question 2, not sure what you mean. I screwed every track section.

Thanks, What I meant was: Do I need to screw every piece of track or can I do it every 'x' amount of feet?

I use 1 screw for each section of track. One reason I do this is to level each section of track side to side 

What I meant was: Do I need to screw every piece of track or can I do it every 'x' amount of feet?

Ah! Got it. 

@D&H 65 seems to have a great answer. I kinda regret now having screwed the track as often as I did. Resulted in some undulations here and there that are annoying. Looking back, the best answer is to avoid screws altogether and thereby avoid noise transfer. A properly leveled table top (mine ins't) coupled with, say, a foam base, should mean that no screws are needed. Ballast and the weight of the trains themselves will keep things tight. 

@carsntrains had this to say, by the way (in another post):  Lionel says to run a feeder at every 3 to 5 pieces of track regardless of length. 

  I think the wire gauge you use would factor into the spacing as well.  I soldered 18/2 on to every fifth or sixth section, fed by bus bars, and it works beautifully.  

  I also have the TinMan’s power taps, but since I was using fixed voltage from a 1033 transformer to power the switches, it created a short when running the track from a phased KW transformer. Since you’re using a single ZW, this may be a moot point, but just a word of caution. 

Tom

rattler21 posted:

Let's start at square one.  What kind of track are you using?  What length?  Any cut to fit? Are you going to solder each joint?  Are you going to use actual Lock-Ons or spade connectors for power drops? 

John

What kind of track are you using?   Lionel o-guage

What length? Mostly 10" straight and 1/8 curve, 5.5" straight and 1/16 curve, and a very few 4" ,3" ,2.5"

Are you going to solder each joint? Nope, steel track pins and tracks screwed to the table so things don't move

Are you going to use actual Lock-Ons or spade connectors for power drops? The regular Lionel CTC lockons and the lighted lockons.  

I go with the Lionel recommendation myself. Every 5 or 6 track BUT my track is old and maybe not tight all around. I can see further apart if the track is new and tight but as said, the more freight you pull and accessories like lighted caboose or other stuff will drop the power 

relating to screws, I have traditional rail, no ballast, a lot of accessories, and all on homasote. What works for me is enough screws so the track stays where I want it and does not come apart. You can easily judge that. I have a screw maybe every 3-4 track pieces on aversge, depending on switches, actuating track and curves.

dkdkrd posted:

Re screwing track down...some considerations:

If this is a layout that may be subject to periodic storage in a vertical attitude, you'll need a lot more track fasteners than if the layout will be only in a horizontal mode.  And that's because...

Gravity tends to do a pretty good job of holding things down.  It's the side-to-side forces that really dictate how many and at what points you need track fasteners.   If the layout will be tipped for vertical storage, the track will need a fasteners at, oh, maybe every other piece of track (tubular) or every piece (Gargraves type).

Further, ideally track screws/fasteners would be run in stopping just short of contacting the ties.   We (LHS) find that, particularly on smaller gauges...HO/N...customers will run the screws/nails in too far, distorting the ties, creating rail distortions that can be severe enough to cause real operation problems with the trains.  Again, gravity really does most of the downward work.   Keeping the track from moving side-to-side is more the issue, for which the length of the fastener and the nature of the roadbed/baseboard are key.

Comments above re transmitting noise with track fasteners are generally important considerations.  There have been several techniques published to minimize noise transmission track-to-table.  It's a whole topic in and of itself.  But, as I said before, if the track screws stop short of touching the ties (a few thousandths of an inch are all we're talking here) it will help minimize noise transmission.

This ends up being more a TEHO topic.  Paradigms abound.  The above considerations are just one person's opinion/experience....FWIW.

KD

I got 1/2" homasote over 1/2" plywood. The table (2   - 8x4 ft with a middle section 3x4) does not fold, so this is permanent. Agreed, if I screw put do not put tension on the tie, I minimize noise transmission. I like hokie71  every 3-4 pieces of track idea.

Wire conducts easier than any rail material. Track has a given power loss per foot. Each track joint is more added resistance; old rusty track, more so. More drops promote efficienct delivery. A fat bus loop, and short smaller drops is best. Drops every 3'-4' on highly jointed, maybe every 6' on 36" sections (every other section) Ideally, transformer-fuse-fat bus-drops-track.  I use 12g bus and 14g drops on as small as 4.5x9. (using 2 zw, you MUST phase them. and double the bus common's gauge because it is now handling two transformers ). I wire to handle the transformer max output safely under worst case scenario, not by what my circuits normally draw. Normal expected draw is your fuse choice. (or external breaker choice... the internal is only really intended to protect the transformer)

Consider soldering wire to the rail underside or outside edge of rails.  It is a better connection that hides better, and costs less. 

Allowing float is a good thing for expansion and contraction of wood and metal alike. Avoid being too tight at every joint or your in trouble if it shrinks a lot for the winter. 

 I "pin" my curves and switches from shifting much and may pin long straights to keep them inline better; no huge drifting.   I don't use ballast, but once that is glued, your track isn't going anywhere easily.

  Consider nylon scews, or zip strips (there are a number of fastening methods for zips)

Also not cheap, but threaded rubber inserts/anchors would do a geat job. I can't believe I never thought of them. They are common with a rubber washer or standoff tube for isolation from vibration in other things.

 I know some small scale folk that use cheap paintable caulk beads to sparingly glue track down. It comes up with a pry of a putty knife if done kinda sparingly.

  Gather your stock to check your clearances. Max outside overhang may be a cowcatcher, railing, step, or cab roof; so check low, high, front and rear.

Inside overhang is from tanks, long cars, and don't forget the car roofs too if your tunnel tapers at the ceiling !  My tallest cars are the PW Evans Autoloader (rubs tunnels up high) and the fin on the rocket of the rocket launching car.  I'd check on double stacker heights now if your more interested in modern op.s.

 Patially extended pantagraphs need 7" of head room, more for full extention.

Include in your consideration the number of track joints along with the distance.  Joints add to power drops especially over time.  Another consideration is do you have any insulated sections?  If the flow is continuous throughout the layout perhaps there will be little power loss.  Isolating sections means your single power feed must be able to maintain the needs over the given distance.  I assume you are using sectional track since you mentioned lockons, in that instance I think you may be better off with a lockon every 5-6 track sections.  It may be overkill but it is better than trying to diagnose a problem later on.

I think wire drops have been pretty adequately covered by earlier posters so my comment will be specific to track screws.  

I use Lionel 0-27 tubular track on my layout, all of which has been ballasted.  I use track screws to hold alignment only until the ballast has hardened and then remove all screws.   The ballast holds the track in place just fine.

Curt

juniata guy posted:

I think wire drops have been pretty adequately covered by earlier posters so my comment will be specific to track screws.  

I use Lionel 0-27 tubular track on my layout, all of which has been ballasted.  I use track screws to hold alignment only until the ballast has hardened and then remove all screws.   The ballast holds the track in place just fine.

Curt

So do you use something like 

Deluxe Materials AD75 Ballast Bond Liquid Adhesive

DLM-AD75

https://www.modeltrainstuff.co..._EAQYBSABEgIH1_D_BwE

No sir; diluted white glue - Elmer’s or whatever is the least expensive.

Curt

Regarding the noise from the screws, has anyone actually used a decibel meter (free app) to mark the change in noise level? I mean do the screws actually transmit a noticeable noise into the layout?   

@Mike, I remembered a thread some years ago where someone actually made some measurements on noise. I searched using "decibel" and found this one, there might be an earlier version of it.  Interesting results (Fast track oriented), 

Mike23 posted:

Regarding the noise from the screws, has anyone actually used a decibel meter (free app) to mark the change in noise level? I mean do the screws actually transmit a noticeable noise into the layout?   

No meter anymore (used to be about $100 at R.Shack); but I like the phone idea.  I was thinking about using mymy stereo graphic equalizer, but don't have a mic for recording anymore (not that I can find anyhow) and I know I don't have screws for it right now. My ears satisfied my own curiosity though and I didn't even set out to check it. I was just moving uncoupling tracks or wiring in a drop. The difference was just that obvious. (I'd guess -8 db min. into the 70db  range from 80db+ish)

  TV here used to take full volume to be heard with trains running, and the screws set in the track everywhere. It doesn't take half volume now, since I pulled the majority of the screws out. 

  I suggest testing since as noted in the other threads, "noise" is sometimes subjective to certain frequencies and folks opinions about them.

A lot would also have to do with the table top thickness and how solid the support runners on the underside are. Even denseness/hardness of the wood will have some effect.  I used the more costly foam specific adhesive for its more rubbery texture than Liquid Nail too.

The screws just circumvent some of the isolation attempts we make with soft underlayment.

 If the sound can dissipate into the mass it's in contact with without exciting it to an audible level too, we win. 

Cloth (rugs, towels & blankets), felt, and artificial turf are the quietest underlayments I've heard.

My trolley loop mounted on plywood directly over the main portion of the layout, those PCC cars create more noise than the rest of the layout in its entirety.  Track is 027 tubular screwed down.  I have considered adding some foam material to the underside to cut down the sound.  No measurements other than the comments from those not in the basement.  

1/2" Homasote on top the plywood worked nicely for me.

If the screws only go into the Homasote and do not reach into the plywood you would think that there would be minimum noise transfer through them. 

Forest posted:

If the screws only go into the Homasote and do not reach into the plywood you would think that there would be minimum noise transfer through them. 

I don't yet know if the Homasote alone will secure the tracks from vibrating/moving but I will see.

A friend of mine (whose has his own layout and is a big railroad guy) suggested screwing through the homasote and a little into the plywood.

Forest & Darth: I can confirm if the screws only go into the homasote  and NOT the underlying plywood, you won't have a noise transfer issue.  Two layouts back, I had that exact setup, and it was wonderfully quiet. I used the Atlas"O" specific track screws and they worked great-enough to bite into the homasote and prevent track movement with no noise transmission. I would do that again, only adding the Woodland Scenics foam trackbed to improve the appearances of the right-of-way.

I find the above replies very interesting and informative. Whatever the task, getting back to basics can be very helpful. 

The only issue I differ with is noise. If one has his/her layout in a privately owned home and has a supportive or accommodating wife/family, isn't it best to maximize the noise? Aren't real trains very loud?

LOL, Arnold

I vote for what D&h proposes, works great on tubular, I think I am using #4 screws, 3/4 long. 100% in the homasote. I am not as fortunate as Arnold BTW.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

The only issue I differ with is noise. If one has his/her layout in a privately owned home and has a supportive or accommodating wife/family, isn't it best to maximize the noise? Aren't real trains very loud?

LOL, Arnold

Arnold:  I agree 100%!  Besides; I take my hearing aids out when running trains so they have to be loud for me to hear them.  😁

Curt

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I find the above replies very interesting and informative. Whatever the task, getting back to basics can be very helpful. 

The only issue I differ with is noise. If one has his/her layout in a privately owned home and has a supportive or accommodating wife/family, isn't it best to maximize the noise? Aren't real trains very loud?

LOL, Arnold

I love the din somedays, hate it other days. 

Am I running the Spaghetti-bowl Central at rollover speeds, or am I alone in a dark room watching the passenger cars slowly roll by in the distance. I had enough "excitement" with room rental folk to last a few years I think.... I'm liking silence more and more since then.

  I can turn the volume on for my sound loco's if I want the noise. 

  I also live a stones throw from the tracks so I get the real thing right in my living room... you simply wouldn't believe the bass quality on those babys

 Sinking screws into the hard layer will increase vibration tranfer.  That why I've began refering to stopping short to the solid wood as "pinning"; for lack of a more descriptive word. We just need to stop tracks from shifting on most layouts, not actually fasten them firm and solid. If the loose nature of screws used this way is something that bothers you for some reason , maybe move to a nut & machine screw to create a stiff post right on the track to fit into a hole in the soft top layer.