4 x 8 Fastrack Layout

What diameter curve is the inner loop?

Also, it is my preference to have industrial spurs and omit the crossover.

Inner loop used 031 45 degree curves.

Here are two plans I made with sidings.

Thanks.

KW,

   Purchase some 031 RealTax for your inside loops.  Further make custom FasTrack close out pieces for your outer FT loops with a Rockwell X2 Portable Table Saw, and you can build a beauty of a 4x8 layout.  Unfortunately because of the road bed, 031 FasTrack will not fit inside the 036 FasTrack, the 031 RealTrax does work perfectly however.

PCRR/Dave

Are you set on using FasTrack?

I thought the FasTrack roadbed would work based on these SCARM diagrams.  I don't know what is meant by "close out" pieces.

As far as FasTrack, I just thought it would be easy.  I'm open to suggestions.   I would like to run my Lionel 1607WS freight set (steam locomotive 2037) that I've had since 1957.  I also have a Pennsylvania F3A Dual Motor Diesel & matching non-powered unit Lionel # 6-8970.   Will this diesel run on the 036 oval?

Thanks very much!

KW,

   You are going to find that using engineering layout plans like SCRAM and others, that actuals are sometimes different than their engineered layouts show.  You may often times need to make special size final FasTrack Pieces, that Lionel does not make, to perfectly complete your FT layout design, this is what I mean by Custom Close Out Pieces.  I use FasTrack on all my multi-level Christmas layouts, believe me FT 031 will not fit inside FT 036 because of the FT road bed size, use the 031 RealTrax for your inner most Loop, the road bed is completely different, and will fit inside the 036 FasTrack perfectly.   As far as which engines will run, check your Lionel Engine Boxes and instructions for that info, the best way however to determine what curves the engine will run thru, is to test each individual engine yourself, lots of 036 min engines will run thru 027 curves also.   I like to run 048 curves and bigger, when engineering FasTrack layouts, in that way most all my prior purchased engines and rolling stock run perfectly.  Remember however Scale Engines like the Lionel TMCC  JLC GG1 only run on 072 and bigger Curves, so read carefully before you purchase new engines for your FT layouts. 

PCRR/Dave

As I see it, the O31 FasTrack will easily fit inside the O36 FasTrack because there is a 5" straight to widen the O36 width (and maybe another small straight).

I like the initial layout's use of O60 turnouts to access to two loops. Plus, I'd try to also use them on the spurs.

Gentlemen,

   Please feel free to engineer as you think best.

PCRR/Dave

Karl,

I believe Terry is correct. Generally the FT O31 oval will not fit in the FT O36 oval. However, that is not what you have. As Terry pointed out, you've expanded the O36 oval with the addition of the small 4.5" and 1.75" tracks, so there should be no reason they won't fit as designed. If you look at PCRR/Dave's photo, it appears the O36 oval is just that, an oval, without any expansion pieces to increase its width. For me, the only question is whether or not there's enough "give" for the tracks to join at the crossing. I think there is, but I don't use FT, so I can't say for sure. Moonman is one expert on FT and SCARM, so maybe he'll chime in. That design has been posted many times before as has the version with sidings on each leg of the crossing.

As for replacing the crossing with sidings, it all depends on what you want and how you intend to landscape. Do you want trains to just run around in circles in the same direction with "pretend" stops at imaginary delivery points with action accessories to give them a reason to stop? Or do you want to be able to change directions, etc.? Small layouts like this are difficult because it's hard to do both.

BTW, the PDF file is a parts list, I had no trouble viewing it. And one hint, it's usually useful to post the SCARM file you're working with so people can make/post changes without having to reinvent the design.

KW posted:

Hi.  This is my first time posting.  This is a 4x8 layout using SCARM.  Each oval would be a separate block.  I'm limited by space and can't go wider than 4 feet.  I would appreciate any comments about the feasibility of this plan. 

I attached a jpeg file and a pdf file but they don't appear correct in the draft.  The pdf file looks like an empty page. Please advise.

Thanks.

Karl

Karl with a K,

Hi! Welcome aboard! The first layout that you posted looks good. Multiple routes and ability to reverse. if you want some sidings, Just replace an O36 switch for a 10" off of the crossover heading to the 90°. Nice job with SCARM!

The roadbed will be very close to edge on the sides.

Your trains will certainly run on all of this track.

Just a note, there is a no roadbed piece included with the O60 switches that is used when you connect them turn-out to turn-out. There is also a wire for the center rail that can you can remove to isolate the two loops and run two trains.

You'll have to wire the switches for accessory power when running conventionally. They won't get enough off of track power at 6 -9 volts.

This build will not bore you too quickly. It will be a good layout to get back into running your trains. #4 x 3/4" flat head Philips machine screws hold the track down nicely.

Carl with a C

Carl with a C,

I thought I could use the 1.38 sections between 060 turn-outs to make each oval a separate block. 

Do you think the tolerance of the small gaps near the 90° will be okay?

Thanks again.

Karl with a K

KW posted:

Carl with a C,

I thought I could use the 1.38 sections between 060 turn-outs to make each oval a separate block. 

Do you think the tolerance of the small gaps near the 90° will be okay?

Thanks again.

Karl with a K

Yes, they are 1 3/8" long. They must be used as the roadbed on the turn is cut back on only one side. When the two face one another, there is no space for roadbed. It looks odd in SCARM. Look at the attached product photo from Lionel. The O72 & O60 are the same.

The fitment will work at the 90°. When the SCARM joint arrows make a diamond, it indicates the fitment will work. The default tolerance in SCARM is very small. I prefer to make the joints connected, especially with roadbed track, like Kato and Bachmann HO and FasTrack and RealTrax in O, but will accept a couple of joints like those. There is simply no way to make them join. I find Milen's track formulas for libraries to be very accurate, as they are based on manufacturer specs.

You don't get much of siding in this plan. It's just due to the size. I would leave it out, unless you have a log or coal dumper or find that want some uncoupling action later.

How did you find the show roadbed toggle?

Don't forget to delete a 1 - 6-12074, 1 - 350, & 1- 12073 for each O60 switch from the parts purchase  list as they are included with the switches. I have attached a corrected list. You had a couple of half-rb pieces where they weren't needed, on the thru end of the O60 switch next to the O36. The O36 have a small notch in the roadbed to allow a full roadbed to join.

Any more questions?

I found the show roadbed toggle "B" while reading another layout post in the forum.

I have a Lionel 296 passenger set circa 1926 which was my Mom's.  The wheels and couplers have rusted.  I read some posts from members using Evapo Rust.  Some of the posts say Evapo Rust won't affect the paint but might affect chemical blackening.  Are my trucks chemically blackened? Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Thank you.

Karl

I can't fit a layout wider than 4', but I tried expanding the layout to the limit of my space lengthwise.  I think it now allows for a decent siding. Thanks.

KW posted:

I can't fit a layout wider than 4', but I tried expanding the layout to the limit of my space lengthwise.  I think it now allows for a decent siding. Thanks.

That allowed a decent siding. If you think you need the second, do one above. It would hold about three cars. So. you could change the last 3 cars. Do it when you need it.

KW posted:

I found the show roadbed toggle "B" while reading another layout post in the forum.

I have a Lionel 296 passenger set circa 1926 which was my Mom's.  The wheels and couplers have rusted.  I read some posts from members using Evapo Rust.  Some of the posts say Evapo Rust won't affect the paint but might affect chemical blackening.  Are my trucks chemically blackened? Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Thank you.

Karl

I wouldn't do much with the condition of those cars. They are only original once.

Wipe it with a soft cloth and some very light pure oil, like sewing machine oil and then a dry cloth to sort of pull the dirt & rust off. Very small amount on the cloth. Just do a little a time when you feel like it. The paint loses it's oil over time and the metal will stop rusting. The dirt and the rust will slowly come off.

No chemicals or anything to make them look new. Let them look like they are a well kept 90 years old and still can be used.

You can get shiny new MTH repo's if that's what you want.

Reopening this closed thread with a question about the proper way to wire the layout. Would eventually like to run 2 trains. Looking at the layout that Karl with a K presented. I am returning to a "boyhood passion" and finding that there have been some changes LoL! Thank you in advance for answering this old "newbie's" question.

CTT did a project layout a few years back very similar to what you are proposing, might be worth getting the issues second hand to see how their wired it.  

[edit] Jan 2013 was one issue in the series 

Thank You Montclaire for the reply and the information.

Here is another way to make the plan connect.   Here with a tolerance set to 3/32".  The "legs" from the crossing here are 11.5" long, compared to the previous version of 11 3/8 long, resulting in a closer fit.

I also added an easement using 22.5 degrees of O-48 leading into the curves at each end of the outside loop.

4X10:

4X8

Thank You KEN-OSCALE for the info and the pix.

Actually, the tolerances are 1/32" (pretty close to perfect) everywhere except the one circled connection, which connects with a tolerance of 1/16".  [According to AnyRail 6.5]

NamVet4: Firstly, thank you for your service protecting freedom, liberty, and our great country. 

Secondly, do you plan to operate your layout conventionally via transformers or via one of the control systems (TMCC/Legacy or DCS)? Which transformer(s) will you be using?  Which type of track? 

KenOscale: your designs are great, keep up the good work!

JD

Thank You JD2035RR for your kind words.

I must learn to be more specific - I was excited to be able to write my first post after being a lurker. Doh!

I am anticipating using Lionel Fastrack since that is what all the O Gauge Lionel sets come with. And most likely a Lionchief steam engine(s) to start. From what I have been able to read, and since I want to run 2 trains at the same time, I will probably want advice on a transformer. I also plan to add  "active"  trackside accessories. And, after rummaging around in the attic I found a few of the Lionel trains, engines, and cars, from my youth - all over 50 years old!  I am planning on working on this layout project as a good form of physical and mental therapy. I have an 8-year-old Grandson who I hope will enjoy my efforts when he comes to visit.

I will have many more questions in the future and I want to Thank everyone who takes the time to read them and answer them. 

Glad to hear that you will be including your grandson and that you found some of your old train equipment - a little cleaning and lubrication and those should be ready to go!  I have found working on the layout and equipment to be quite therapeutic.  You and your grandson will have some fun times ahead.  You might enjoy these threads as well:

1. https://ogrforum.com/...21#71397234021074821

2. https://ogrforum.com/...ith-a-7-year-old-boy

3. https://ogrforum.com/...accessories-for-kids

For transformers, you will get varying opinions.  If you will be running anything with a circuit board (i.e., Lionchief, Lionchief Plus, TMCC, Legacy, MTH Proto, etc.)  You will want protection from transient voltage spikes.  Most, if not all, modern transformers (i.e., Lionel CW80, CW180, Lionel ZW-L, MTH Z-1000, MTH Z-4000, etc.) have built in protection against transient voltage spikes.  You can add Transient Voltage Supression Diode(s) to a postwar transformer such as classic ZW by placing a TVS diode (Purchased here: https://www.digikey.com/produc...E36CALFCT-ND/1530580) from the common post to the variable voltage post.  On a postwar transformer, you would also want to add an in-line quick acting breaker (5 amps) (the existing circuit breaker in the postwar transformer protects the transformer from short circuits, it does not protect the train - which could be the end of the circuit board.)  The closer the TVS diode is to the device you are protecting the better: You can read more here or search the forum for TVS Diode:

1. https://ogrforum.com/...cal-surge-protection

2. https://ogrforum.com/...postwar-transformers

I would suggest "overbuying" on your transformer from the beginning as it will be easier to add on in the future.  In this case I am suggesting a MTH Z-4000, refurbished postwar Lionel ZW (with added in-line breakers and TVS diodes), or lionel ZW-L among other transformers that I am probably overlooking.  Although, you could certainly get by with 2 Lionel CW80s OR two MTH Z-1000 OR two smaller postwar transformers.  My personal suggestion would be a postwar Lionel ZW with the added in-line breakers and TVS diodes.  Hopefully someone else will also chime in with their transformer suggestion.  I know a lot of guys like the z-4000 as well.  If you are getting a lionchief set, some (maybe all) only come with power bricks (i.e., no handle for variable operation, only a constant 16-18 volts).  

As far as wiring, I would set up the outer loop and inner loop on separate variable voltage lines or blocks.  That way, you can run your old postwar trains on either loop with variable voltage, and you can also set the transformer at the recommended constant voltage for the Lionchief to run on either loop as well.  Between the switches going from outer loop to inner loop, you will need a gap in the center rail to have a separation of power between the outside and inside loops.  You could probably get by with two feeder wires to each loop (represented by black dots in the picture below) although the more track feeders, the more even your track power will be.  You can use crimp spade connectors to connect to any piece of fastrack, so you don't need to only rely on the wire terminal section of track.  On a ZW, there are common terminals (aka U, Neutral, outside rail) and there are 4 different variable voltage terminals (A,B,C, and D) (aka hot or center rail).  Again if using a postwar ZW and a Lionchief engine, be sure to use TVS diodes at the transformer terminal and add an inline quick acting breaker on the hot wire to the track.

Terminal A (right handle ) powers the outside loop.  Terminal D (left handle) powers the inner loop.  I would then set up Terminal B for trackside accessories and terminal C for constant voltage to switch tracks.  

This is a lot of information, but please reach out if you need clarification, have questions, or if something isn't working the way you expect it to.  Hope this helps!

All the best,

JD

Crude picture below: 

I should add that Lionel recommends 16 gauge (awg) stranded for main bus wires and 18 gauge (awg) for feeder wires.  I would just buy a roll of 16 gauge and you should be good to go.  This is also a good reference source for you: https://lionelllc.wordpress.co...for-model-railroads/

Namvet4 posted:

Reopening this closed thread with a question about the proper way to wire the layout. Would eventually like to run 2 trains. Looking at the layout that Karl with a K presented. I am returning to a "boyhood passion" and finding that there have been some changes LoL! Thank you in advance for answering this old "newbie's" question.

Namvet4,

The red tracks between the crossover switch pairs(O60) have a jumper that can be removed. This isolates the outside loop and inside loop center (power).

Then, you just make the necessary track connections to the two loops with separate transformers or channels for conventional operation.

An ACC power supply of 12-14 volts would also be needed for the switch power when operating conventionally as they will not work properly on 5-7 volts.

Thank you for your service. I have an uncle that was SOG with the medic that recently received the Medal of Honor. He also attends services at Arlington. He received a few nice ribbons a couple of years ago when they declassified some of the missions. Some crazy s*^& you all went through.

JD2035RR posted:

Glad to hear that you will be including your grandson and that you found some of your old train equipment - a little cleaning and lubrication and those should be ready to go!  I have found working on the layout and equipment to be quite therapeutic.  You and your grandson will have some fun times ahead.  You might enjoy these threads as well:

1. https://ogrforum.com/...21#71397234021074821

2. https://ogrforum.com/...ith-a-7-year-old-boy

3. https://ogrforum.com/...accessories-for-kids

For transformers, you will get varying opinions.  If you will be running anything with a circuit board (i.e., Lionchief, Lionchief Plus, TMCC, Legacy, MTH Proto, etc.)  You will want protection from transient voltage spikes.  Most, if not all, modern transformers (i.e., Lionel CW80, CW180, Lionel ZW-L, MTH Z-1000, MTH Z-4000, etc.) have built in protection against transient voltage spikes.  You can add Transient Voltage Supression Diode(s) to a postwar transformer such as classic ZW by placing a TVS diode (Purchased here: https://www.digikey.com/produc...E36CALFCT-ND/1530580) from the common post to the variable voltage post.  On a postwar transformer, you would also want to add an in-line quick acting breaker (5 amps) (the existing circuit breaker in the postwar transformer protects the transformer from short circuits, it does not protect the train - which could be the end of the circuit board.)  The closer the TVS diode is to the device you are protecting the better: You can read more here or search the forum for TVS Diode:

1. https://ogrforum.com/...cal-surge-protection

2. https://ogrforum.com/...postwar-transformers

I would suggest "overbuying" on your transformer from the beginning as it will be easier to add on in the future.  In this case I am suggesting a MTH Z-4000, refurbished postwar Lionel ZW (with added in-line breakers and TVS diodes), or lionel ZW-L among other transformers that I am probably overlooking.  Although, you could certainly get by with 2 Lionel CW80s OR two MTH Z-1000 OR two smaller postwar transformers.  My personal suggestion would be a postwar Lionel ZW with the added in-line breakers and TVS diodes.  Hopefully someone else will also chime in with their transformer suggestion.  I know a lot of guys like the z-4000 as well.  If you are getting a lionchief set, some (maybe all) only come with power bricks (i.e., no handle for variable operation, only a constant 16-18 volts).  

As far as wiring, I would set up the outer loop and inner loop on separate variable voltage lines or blocks.  That way, you can run your old postwar trains on either loop with variable voltage, and you can also set the transformer at the recommended constant voltage for the Lionchief to run on either loop as well.  Between the switches going from outer loop to inner loop, you will need a gap in the center rail to have a separation of power between the outside and inside loops.  You could probably get by with two feeder wires to each loop (represented by black dots in the picture below) although the more track feeders, the more even your track power will be.  You can use crimp spade connectors to connect to any piece of fastrack, so you don't need to only rely on the wire terminal section of track.  On a ZW, there are common terminals (aka U, Neutral, outside rail) and there are 4 different variable voltage terminals (A,B,C, and D) (aka hot or center rail).  Again if using a postwar ZW and a Lionchief engine, be sure to use TVS diodes at the transformer terminal and add an inline quick acting breaker on the hot wire to the track.

Terminal A (right handle ) powers the outside loop.  Terminal D (left handle) powers the inner loop.  I would then set up Terminal B for trackside accessories and terminal C for constant voltage to switch tracks.  

This is a lot of information, but please reach out if you need clarification, have questions, or if something isn't working the way you expect it to.  Hope this helps!

All the best,

JD

 

I would not recommend a CW 80. You're lucky to get 75 watts out of them. We had a guy come through the shop one time with a CW 80 that was only putting out 40 watts no matter what we did.

Thank You, JD - a lot of good information. Will take my time and digest it all and follow through.

Thank You, Carl, for the reply and the good information you provided, and Thank You for your kind words. I am glad to hear that your Uncle is still with you - extend a Welcome Home to him from me.

 Thank You  GENESISFAN99 for the follow-up info on the transformer - always good to hear about first-hand use and reliability.

GenesisFan99 posted:

I would not recommend a CW 80. You're lucky to get 75 watts out of them. We had a guy come through the shop one time with a CW 80 that was only putting out 40 watts no matter what we did.

I have had over 22 CW80 transformers and every one of them was tested for output - 5 amps every time.

I have a couple of PowerMax Plus transformers(looks like a CW80):

That put out 2.5 amps/40 watts maximum.

These tests were done with a .1 ohm load and the fold-back function limiting the final output.

Thank You Rob - more information is always appreciated.

Perhaps could the design be simplified for temporary layout Have 048 switches  and 072 WYE maybe eliminate crossover? 

Very good advice advice here.

  On the power, you might want to bump an added breaker to 6amp or even 7a. I have a couple of PW motors that pull a 5.5a peak when starting with a load. A 1033 has a 6a if I'm not mistaken and they will shut down sooner after about a half hour of higher speed running with only 4 lit pass. cars (1 bulb ea.). Not just drop out from a stop, but while rolling.  The dual motor A (who's I forget... curious as this is a kinda old thread, now a "2 part" ), if it is p.w. it may trip the breaker too easy at 5a.

I also like gauge overkill on wiring, hot wires worry me. I use 14g & 12g as buss/feeds. In a "catastrophic" short, the heavier gauge is much less likely to be damaged. The excees size wont really hinder things. 

Deciding between the reversing loops of the 8 or sidings should be determined by how you run your trains; laid back & looping, "look Ma, no hands", or protypical operations.

As an adult, I'm a looper. But I enjoyed switching, time/ scale distance, etc. as a kid, so I made two sidings. Mostly I just park things on them today to use the Acc./uncpl tracks.

   One reason I'm glad the sidings are there is I can park a tender on them, and still have a whistle for non-whistle trains (with a tmcc tender, I also have bell and the soothing mechanical rhythms of the pressure cycling's drumming in the background. Or I'll lock an diesel engine in nuetral for horn/bell ) But you could also do that with a loose piece of track placed anywhere. No connection to the loops really needed. I could show you many businesses with old track outside no longer connected. Some even have old cars on them, so it IS prototypical too.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

KW,

   ... with a Rockwell X2 Portable Table Saw, ....

PCRR/Dave 

Ah, Dave, I see you're a fellow aficionado of the Rockwell Bladerunner X2 system. I love this saw, too.  It's versatile, ompact, and can handle ALL bench and layout building jobs without the necessity of bringing out bulkier, heavy power saws. A really nifty powerhouse - love mine, love mine, love mine!!!

Tom weaver posted:

Perhaps could the design be simplified for temporary layout Have 048 switches  and 072 WYE maybe eliminate crossover? 

Tom, I am not able to visualize what you are suggesting. Can you provide even a rough sketch of how the simplification would appear on a revised layout? Thanks in advance...

Adriatic posted:

Very good advice advice here.

  On the power, you might want to bump an added breaker to 6amp or even 7a. I have a couple of PW motors that pull a 5.5a peak when starting with a load. A 1033 has a 6a if I'm not mistaken and they will shut down sooner after about a half hour of higher speed running with only 4 lit pass. cars (1 bulb ea.). Not just drop out from a stop, but while rolling.  The dual motor A (who's I forget... curious as this is a kinda old thread, now a "2 part" ), if it is p.w. it may trip the breaker too easy at 5a.

I also like gauge overkill on wiring, hot wires worry me. I use 14g & 12g as buss/feeds. In a "catastrophic" short, the heavier gauge is much less likely to be damaged. The excees size wont really hinder things. 

Deciding between the reversing loops of the 8 or sidings should be determined by how you run your trains; laid back & looping, "look Ma, no hands", or protypical operations.

As an adult, I'm a looper. But I enjoyed switching, time/ scale distance, etc. as a kid, so I made two sidings. Mostly I just park things on them today to use the Acc./uncpl tracks.

   One reason I'm glad the sidings are there is I can park a tender on them, and still have a whistle for non-whistle trains (with a tmcc tender, I also have bell and the soothing mechanical rhythms of the pressure cycling's drumming in the background. Or I'll lock an diesel engine in nuetral for horn/bell ) But you could also do that with a loose piece of track placed anywhere. No connection to the loops really needed. I could show you many businesses with old track outside no longer connected. Some even have old cars on them, so it IS prototypical too.

Thank you for your very good advice, Adriatic. As a boy I had an L shaped layout made with 2 4x8 sheets - had sidings and was also capable of "looping". Those are great memories and now looking forward to making new memories.

Namvet4 posted:

Will take my time and digest it all and follow through.

 

I probably omitted the most simple solution - which is run the Lionchief set and your postwar equipment on completely separate track configurations with no crossover between the two.  The transformer that comes with the Lionchief (whether it is a fixed voltage "brick/wall wart" or a modern variable transformer) would power the loop/configuration for the Lionchief.  You could run your postwar equipment on a separate loop/configuration powered by a postwar transformer that you might already have or pick one up relatively cheap.  This would probably get you off the ground the quickest and cheapest (if that is a concern to you).  You can always make changes and upgrade in the future.  I just didn't want to make it sound too overwhelming in the original post to get started.  

I am thinking that you could have the interior figure 8/loop for the Lionchief and have a separate outer loop for postwar.  Let the grandkid try his hand at both control systems, throw in an accessory or two or three, and you guys will have a ball.

JD