665 Not Working - Please Help

Check the drum and fingers in the e unit.

Is your locomotive a postwar Lionel 665 engine or some sort of reissue?

If it is a postwar 665, then it looks to me like your locomotive has had repairs done before, including a replacement of the armature and the brushes. Postwar Lionel armatures usually have a different commutator.

if you have a VOM, in addition to checking the drum and fingers, as Roger suggested, check:

Resistance between each combination of commutator segments. - Off the top of my head should be about one ohm. Regardless, all combinations should be about the same.

Resistance between each commutator segment and the armature shaft. -should be infinite (no circuit)

Resistance of the brushes - should be as low as possible. certainly less than one ohm.

The subject of brushes with too much resistance came up a while ago here. Anybody interested can use the search function to read more.

Thank you for the responses.  It is post war but I did have it worked on at some point.  I've owned it since 1969.  I will try the suggestions.  Thank you.

Smoke from a motor is never a good sign the source is overheated insulation, which for the windings is enameled wire. This only goes from bad to worse. Somewhere there is either a high resistance connection resulting from a breaking wire or wire joint, or a low resistance short. Either can generate a lot of heat. The motor needs professional help for a rebuild if not replacement.

Bogie

CharlieS posted:

... it looks to me like your locomotive has had repairs done before, including a replacement of the armature and the brushes. Postwar Lionel armatures usually have a different commutator...

The armature and those brushes are correct for 1966 production.

Agreed there is short there, and I think the VOM test of the armature segments and shaft are going to tell the picture, there likely is a short between the segments or somewhere there. Did you clean the slots between the commutator segments, the surface looks pretty clean but if some crap dropped down in the slots it could be causing a short, if you have some dust off or a source of compressed air you might want to try blowing into the slots to see if it cleans anything out. I also would be looking at the wiring into the e-unit and to the motor, and see if anything looks like it is shorting, the thin wires that go to the engine have a very thing coating on them and if one of them is touching a metal surface it may be causing a short. As long as the armateur isn't binding or stuck, then the short is the most likely cause. 

Thank you again for your responses.  My repair knowledge and experience is limited.  I did cover some freyed exposed wires but it did not help.  Could anyone suggest a good repair shop I could send it to for an overhaul?  Thank you.

Where in NYS are you? Email is in my profile - if you are close, I can help you out.

@srf, Thanks for your email. It is too bad that our state is so large.

I wouldn’t have you throw in the towel on being able to perform further diagnostics and a repair (for me, this adds to the enjoyment of the hobby - that satisfaction of restoring operation). To help assist you, Olsen’s Toy Train Parts has quite the library of Lionel service documents posted online for free. Here are the links specific to your 665:

 http://www.olsenstoy.com/665.htm

 Since you may have an e-unit issue, here are the e-unit documents:

 http://www.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=1070

 And for the motor itself (shares lineage with the 2025, 2035, 2055 and a few others)

 http://www.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc2035d.pdf

 Hope this all helps!

As Bm0ran4 wrote, NYS is a big place. If you are in the Capital Districf area, S&W does repairs. Bill is in Niskayuna, ny

Thanks.  I'm on Long Island and there are no shops in my immediate area.

Where in Long Island are you?

Trainland  in Lynbrook does repairs. I worked as a technician for them when I lived in New York and did many repairs for them.

Larry

Thank you all for your replies and encouragement.  I have an update and could use some more help.  To trouble shoot I removed and bypassed the e unit.  I degreased and cleaned the wheels and gears.  I removed the rods on the gear side.  When I apply power on my bench I still only get humming from the motor.  It seems as though something is binding and stopping the wheels from turning.  The left front inside gear that powers the front wheel is loose.  I'd like to go further by removing the wheels to see if the engine turns by itself and then reassemble the gears and wheels.  How exactly do I remove the wheels?  Do I tap the axel through with a hammer or just try to pry the wheels off with a screwdriver?  Any further guidance you all could offer would be greatly appreciated.

Just to add to above.  I also replaced the brushes and brush springs and thoroughly cleaned the armature face and brush plate and brush holes.  I also sprayed CRC all around and cleaned everything up.  I also just removed the right push rods and still just buzzing.  I see the wheels do move forward very slightly. 

 I'd like to go further by removing the wheels to see if the engine turns by itself and then reassemble the gears and wheels.  How exactly do I remove the wheels?  Do I tap the axel through with a hammer or just try to pry the wheels off with a screwdriver?  Any further guidance you all could offer would be greatly appreciated.

Not a good idea.
While the work can be done with out them, wheels are best removed and reinstalled with a wheel puller and an arbor press with the correct wheel cups (wheel mounting tools).

If you pry the wheels off with a screwdriver, there is a good chance you will bend the axles.

Lionel engines will usually run well even with play in the gears.

How did you bypass the e-unit?
- disconnect e-unit from motor (3 wires).
- 1) hot wire to one brush holder
- 2) field wire to second brush holder
- 3) the other field wire should already be connected to chassis (ground)
- 4) second test lead to chassis (ground)

Did you do the meter checking I described above?
Being that you had smoke, I think it is more likely to be an electrical problem.

Take a small poker and wiggle/look at the external gearing - sometimes they get loose on the pin that holds it to the chassis.

They might look ok - but wobble enough when running to bind

@srf, Oh gosh! I would not take the wheels off just yet! That is a pretty major operation and something I try to avoid at all costs!

The 665 wheels and motor should spin freely by hand. You state that yours has very little free movement. Don't bother with the electronics until you get this physical defect taken care of. Let's figure out what is causing the binding.

*Side rods/quartering - You were correct in taking off the side rods - I would do that on the other side as well.

*Foreign debris - The 665 has magnatraction and collects all sorts of ferrous debris. Sometimes even non-ferrous materials such as a piece of ballast gets in the gears and locks things up.

*Gear alignment - make sure the intermediate gears are sitting in plane with the frame. In rare cases, they can become so worn that they obtain enough play to cause things to bind up.

*Ensure the gear plate and brush plate are fastened in tightly and that there is not excessive play or egging of the armature holes.

Let us know what your findings are!

Thanks - i just rechecked the bypass wiring and moved the neg clip from the other brush wire to the chassis - same result.  Just buzz no movement.  If I move the wheels manually forward they seem to move freely and I see the armature moving as well.  Is time to throw in the towel?  Armature and field coil both look new.  Could the other end of the field coil disconnected from the chassis?  I dont see the other end?  

Thank you all.  Just some background.  The motor and the entire set have been in my family since new.  It sat in a box for about 35 years until I set it up 3-4 weeks ago. The engine was working perfectly until it stopped.  It has very little use so the gears appear to me to be in good shape.  I don't see any obvious debris.  Are there any hidden areas I should know about?  The gear plate and brush plate are screwed on well.  The smaller gears look well aligned.  I replaced the brush wires.  I attached some pictures hoping you guys might see some obvious problem. 

Just a question - the two yellow wires coming from the brushes - are you connecting those directly to the transformer to test the motor? (Hint - you shouldn't)

Thanks - i just rechecked the bypass wiring and moved the neg clip from the other brush wire to the chassis - same result.  Just buzz no movement.  If I move the wheels manually forward they seem to move freely and I see the armature moving as well.  Is time to throw in the towel?  Armature and field coil both look new.  Could the other end of the field coil disconnected from the chassis?  I dont see the other end?  


- did you disconnect the wires running from the E-unit?
- did you perform the VOM tests?

Trying to help, but if you cannot answer my questions, I cannot help you.
 

Follow up note.  I'm also working on a 675 motor.  When I turn the wheels manually on the 675 they continue by themselves for about an 1/8th of a turn.  When I try the same thing with 665 I'm having the trouble with they are much tighter and do not continue by themselves at all. 

C.W. - yes the e unit is completely disconnected and off the motor.  Not sure how to do the VOM test - I'm new.  Could you please explain how to do it?  What does VOM stand for?

C.W. - I have my volt ohm meter in front of me now.  Can you please tell me what it should it be set to and what I should test?

New to the conversation here. It sound like the engine has been disassembled way more than it needs to be. To check if the motor runs: one of the yellow wires from the brush to a test lead. The other yellow wire to the field coil wire, (tie the two together temporary) the one with the cloth insulation. The other test lead to the frame of the motor. The motor should now run. Lets see if we can get that far.

Thanks Chuck but that's what I've been doing with no luck - just humming.  Any suggestions.

OK, touch the frame with one lead, the other lead to the cloth covered field wire. If all it is doing is humming, it sounds like to me the armature is getting power, but the field is shorted, electrically by-passing it. I'm trying to figure if the field is good. I have suspicions this is where the problem is.

Thanks Chuck - I've been trying to find the other end of the field wire but I don't see it.  It should be attached to the chassis - correct?

Check this solder point shown on my 2065 dated from the 1950s and follow to tip of screwdriver there is a solder lug that has a hard to see wire coming off the field coil soldered to it if solder joint is not well it could be your problem.

Example had a 2035 engine basically the same setup that did nothing with motor out i fiddled with it with screwdriver and was able to get engine to briefly work put heat to lug with solder gun to re melt solder and it worked perfectly.It drove me nuts as i did everything i could similar to you and in all my years with pre and postwar this has happened 2 times .

You should see a solder lug on top of the motor, this is where the other wire is soldered to. It is the ground for the field. Look carefully at the first turns of wire on the field to check that none of the wire turns are touching the metal frame of the motor.

If the top field wire was not making good connection, the motor would not hum at all. It sounds like the problem is at the other end of the windings.

C.W. - yes the e unit is completely disconnected and off the motor.  Not sure how to do the VOM test - I'm new.  Could you please explain how to do it?  What does VOM stand for?

VOM stands for "Volt Ohm Meter". They are also called multi-meters. Some VOM meters have only one position on the selector switch for ohms, often marked with an omega. Other volt meters have multiple positions. Use the one with the lowest number.

You are looking for shorted or bad segments on your armature, and your field coil.

First touch your VOM test leads together. The meter should show zero ohms.

Take off the brush plate. Make certain the e-unit is not connected to the field wire.

Let's check to make certain none of the armature windings are shorted to the shaft.

hold one VOM test lead to the armature shaft.
Touch the other lead to each of the three commutator segments (one at a time)
You should get no reading (infinity)
If you get a reading then you have a bad armature.

Next let's check to make certain all three armature coils are OK.

Hold one VOM test lead to one of the commutator segments.
Hold the second VOM test lead to another commutator segment.
Note the reading. If ok, it should be somewhere around 1-2 ohms.
If it is a bit high, don't worry, that could be poor contact between the test lead and the commutator.

Repeat this test until you have checked all combinations of commutator segments

segment 1 to segment 2
segment 1 to segment 3
segment 2 to segment 3

 All readings should be about the same, around 1-2 ohms.

If they are high, try cleaning the commutator and your probe (test lead) tips.

Check the field coil for open/ short.

one probe on the chassis, the other probe on the wire coming from the field coil.
I might have to double check on that one, I think it should be in the range of 1-2 ohms also.

Thank you.  I soldered the lug and it appears the wire is attached.  I also pushes the coil wires up and away from the chassis.  Still just humming.  Question.  The axel for the armature arm extends out on the side of the washer plate.  On another motor when I turn that extension with my fingers I am able to move the wheels if I'm holding the motor - I can't do that with this one?  I can turn it with a small vice grip but not with my fingers.  Could this be the problem?  What could be causing this?

to see if there is any binding with the wheels..I take the side rods off and see if the drivers will turn freely then.

One other thing to check is with the armature and brush plate in place, looking down from the top of the motor, is the back of the armature  rubbing the sideplate of the motor? With the brushplate off, and the armature canted to look through the holes, can you see where any varnish from the windings rubbed off and bare wire exposed?

Can you turn the wheels by hand with the armature in place? With the armature dis-engaged from the gear, can you turn the wheels? Maybe it is mechanically locked up.

You train doctors with your extraordinary mechanical knowledge and skill, are absolutely indispensable for somone like me to have a half way decent running layout. Thank God I know someone nearby who can maske repairs li ke this in an economical way.

Without the help of someone like you folks, my train collection would be nothing more than a big pile of s----t.   LOL

So don't despair if you are unable to fix your engine by yourself. There is a train doctor out there or among us who  can do so economically.

Great advice - been working at this for several days - fun but also very frustrating.  I'll have a pro check it out.

CW - all the VOM ohm testing was within normal range.  I'm thinking its likely a mechanical issue with the armature.  I'm planning on bringing it to an expert for evaluation and repair.  Thank for all your assistance and patience with me.  Much appreciated.