All Nation/Varney Ten Wheeler...

@bob2 posted:

Don't get too hung up on what shows inside the cab.  These are primitive models, compared to the state of the art.  

Good advise, that. I should have listened!

Not to leave well enough alone, I purchased this field-wound motor to give it a try:

Unlike the DC motor (with a 1" stack that came with this engine), this motor is only 5/8" and I thought it might "disappear" into the cab, so away I went.

The hardest thing to do was to remove the big brass coupling from the worm shaft: it's held in place with some kind of spring steel pins, and they were a real bear to pull out. Eventually I got it free and used a length of aquarium(?) tubing as a new coupling (you can see this in the photo.)

The mechanism came together nicely, checked out well on the bench; but when the time came to reassemble everything, the field coil was too far forward and too tall; it interfered with the boiler/cab. You can see in the picture where I trimmed a little of the bakelite(?) insulators, but it was a no-go after all.  

Strangely enough, when I put everything back the way had been, it seems to run better now; I think that the brass coupling now has the tiniest bit of "play" in it, so it's not as rigid as before and is a smoother fit. Is this even possible?  

Anyway, there you have it. I'm not going to re-finish/re-paint this model, as I really like the original patina, and it's in pretty good condition anyway.  

This has been a very enjoyable project; I wasn't sure if this would ever be anything more than a display piece, but thanks to all of you I have learned a lot about the mechanics of old O scale, and now have even more fondness for these old models...

Mark in Oregon

My final(?) post on the subject...until something else breaks and I need help again. 

As I mentioned, I'm not going to re-paint this; I like the original finish and it's in fairly decent shape...

It seems to be in need of a lot of tweaking, but is running very nicely...as of this moment. 

Thanks again for all the help.

Mark in Oregon

I looked your home city up - just north of Astoria?  What a beautiful place to live.

Don't give up - how about some photos of your other O Scale?

@bob2 posted:

I looked your home city up - just north of Astoria?  What a beautiful place to live.

Don't give up - how about some photos of your other O Scale?

Actually, where I live is the Central Coast; Astoria is well north; the last place before the Columbia River and Washington. And yes, it's very beautiful; I feel fortunate to be able to live here.

Certainly not "giving up"; just wrapping up this project. It's currently running really well. Which reminds me of a question I have been meaning to ask: when you guys run your older models, what sort of power source do you use? 

Mark in Oregon 

I use a 120-24 volt step-down fed by a Variac.  Output goes through a $2 Radio Shack bridge rectifier and a DPDT switch.

I have circuit breakers on the 120 volt input and the DC output.  A red light tells me I left it on (had to do that on my soldering iron, too), and an ammeter and voltmeter round it all out.

I also have a giant electrolytic capacitor across the output of the rectifier - probably not necessary.

Gee, I sure would like to see a picture of that; sounds like Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory... 

Mark (still) in Oregon

@bob2 posted:

Don't give up - how about some photos of your other O Scale?

Other than a few Athearn cars (and that Walthers PRR cabin car) I don't have any other what could be considered "vintage" O scale. I do have some diesels, but I know you don't "do plastic"... 

Mark in Oregon 

While not locomotives, I have some kit built O scale models that are about as old as I am or more. 

These two are older than I am. The Scale Model Railways C&O box car from 1937 is numbered for similar type AAR boxcars C&O used for post WW-II auto parts shipments. They were fitted with special racks to haul engines, rear axle assemblies or automatic transmissions to assembly plants.  A friend sent me five aluminum castings (two ends, two sides and a roof) which made the body in 2000. I scratch made a floor and put on full underbody detail.

The Lehigh Valley hopper is  a rebuild of a Scale Craft kit OF-134 from 1936, found on E-bay in 1999. I didn't get to work on it until 2017.  It is also made up of several cast aluminum parts.  Today, epoxy makes building (and rebuilding) these old models a lot easier than it was in the 1930's. Back then, you drilled and tapped the parts for screws, whose heads had to be countersunk and hidden with putty before painting, or drill holes to drive in brass pins. An Intermountain coal load made for their plastic USRA hoppers fit this 84 YO piece perfectly.

In the 1930's, cast aluminum was widely used in making model train kits for freight and passenger cars. Some could turn out quite heavy, especially Mi Loco cast aluminum Pullman cars.  Hauling trains with those cars in them required a big motor which could also quite a juice hog. 

Also added are two more kit built cast aluminum cars: a 40' Scale Craft stock car from 1939 that well models a T&P car of that time. Also Walthers' 12 wheel cast aluminum, depressed center flatcar from 1940.  With wide-spread rural electrification programs being done during the 1930's, cars like these shipped hydro-power generators and transformers from eastern factories to where generating plants and power distribution networks were being built. 

S. Islander

You ever do a coffee table book, count me in.  I have one of each of those, but mine are nowhere near as nice as yours.

Very nice; thanks for showing those.

This is pretty much all the "older" stuff I have at this time:

...just some Athearn cars, that brass hopper (which you all identified as US Hobbies), the Walthers N5 caboose (no, it's a "cabin car!") and lastly...my scratch-built caboose. It's not "vintage" (only 25 years old), but it does have vintage Lobaugh trucks...does that count?  

Mark in Oregon

Hello again. 

Back on the first day of this month, I posted that I was probably done with this thread "until something else breaks and I need help again". Guess what? 

This has been running beautifully; except every now and then it'll seize up and stop. I had it apart (again) this morning: the motor/driveline checks out OK, and the chassis sans motor rolls free and easy. If I attach the motor/driveline, it'll run fine up on blocks, but once it's on the rails and has to propel itself, it will freeze up again.

I think the problem has to do with the center geared drivers. There is a little "play" in the front and rear set, and if I move the center set on the engineer side, it is the same. On the fireman's (left) side, there is none of that play; I think my issue is that one of these drivers (probably this one) is not "seated" properly on the axle. I'm guessing I'm going to have to drop that axle assembly out of the chassis and re-do the driver/axle connection.

 I did not do the initial building of this engine, and don't really know how it was supposed to be assembled, or what to look for, so fixing it might prove to be bit of a challenge. Any ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks yet again.  

Mark in Oregon

"Quarter" is your problem.  All drivers must have crankpins at the same angle - usually 90 degrees or thereabouts.

Pull the rods off, set one side at top or bottom dead center, and make sure the other side is in a very straight line - in line with the axle centerlines.  A loose driver can be fixed at this point with Loctite and your special screwdriver.

To hold the drivers at top/bottom dead center, you can drill an aluminum plate with tight-fitting holes - spacing must be exactly the same as axle spacing.  If the rods are tight (unlikely) they can be used.

Then the rods must be re-fitted after the Loctite sets.  You fit them at front and back dead center.  You will see interference if there is any - the rod must be adjusted so there is no resistance.  Use a magnifying glass, and pins without caps. You may have to make test pins.

Strummer, did any of those motors work out for you that were on E-bay? By the way I remember crossing the Columbia River on the Maryhill ferry when I was a kid. It was just a barge you drove on and a little tug boat pulled it across the river. 

@scale rail posted:

Strummer, 

1: did any of those motors work out for you that were on E-bay?

2: By the way I remember crossing the Columbia River on the Maryhill ferry when I was a kid. It was just a barge you drove on and a little tug boat pulled it across the river. 

1. If you read the first post at the top of this (the 3rd) page, you will see how it turned (or not) out. 

2. Cool memory; by the time I moved here (1975) the big Astoria Bridge was in place and the barge was gone.

Mark in Oregon

@bob2 posted:

"Quarter" is your problem.  All drivers must have crankpins at the same angle - usually 90 degrees or thereabouts.

Pull the rods off, set one side at top or bottom dead center, and make sure the other side is in a very straight line - in line with the axle centerlines.  A loose driver can be fixed at this point with Loctite and your special screwdriver.

To hold the drivers at top/bottom dead center, you can drill an aluminum plate with tight-fitting holes - spacing must be exactly the same as axle spacing.  If the rods are tight (unlikely) they can be used.

Then the rods must be re-fitted after the Loctite sets.  You fit them at front and back dead center.  You will see interference if there is any - the rod must be adjusted so there is no resistance.  Use a magnifying glass, and pins without caps. You may have to make test pins.

Thanks Bob; sounds like this is what I'll have to do. A couple questions:

1. can you explain what you mean by "axle centerlines"?

2. "...front and back dead center"?

3. What do you mean by "pins", and what are these used for?

Please forgive the elementary questions, but I've never had to quarter a steam locomotive before...believe it or not! 

Appreciate the assistance...

Mark in Oregon

Axle centerlines - the axle is a dowel or cylinder.  Picture a very small hole drilled right through the center, from side to side.  Centerline goes right through that hole.

I often center-drill my axles, but tough to do on All Nation.

Top, bottom, front, and back dead center - crankpins up, down, forward or back.  And "dead center" is a term of art - it is that point where the crankpin is as far up, etc., as it is possible to go.

On a driver, it is easier to just eyeball it.  An aircraft engine gets a little whisker in the sparkplug hole that actuates a lever on a scale.

I use "pins" as shorthand for "crankpins" which, in your case, are the little screws that hold the siderods on.  In a car or aircraft engine, the crankpin is that part of the crankshaft where the rods bolt on.

you will need to find threaded pins without the head if you need to investigate siderod bind after quartering is done.

You are on a very steep learning curve.  It took me months of experimentation to understand all the little problems that can be associated with steam engine rods and drivers.

@bob2 posted:

Axle centerlines - the axle is a dowel or cylinder.  Picture a very small hole drilled right through the center, from side to side.  Centerline goes right through that hole.

I often center-drill my axles, but tough to do on All Nation.

Top, bottom, front, and back dead center - crankpins up, down, forward or back.  And "dead center" is a term of art - it is that point where the crankpin is as far up, etc., as it is possible to go.

On a driver, it is easier to just eyeball it.  An aircraft engine gets a little whisker in the sparkplug hole that actuates a lever on a scale.

I use "pins" as shorthand for "crankpins" which, in your case, are the little screws that hold the siderods on.  In a car or aircraft engine, the crankpin is that part of the crankshaft where the rods bolt on.

you will need to find threaded pins without the head if you need to investigate siderod bind after quartering is done.

You are on a very steep learning curve.  It took me months of experimentation to understand all the little problems that can be associated with steam engine rods and drivers.

Omigod... 

Before I start tearing things apart, here is where we stand as of right now:

My crappy cell phone distorts the image a little; but it looks "close", doesn't it?

Something else (which I'm sure is partially to blame): the first and third (non-geared) wheels are tight on their axles: no play, so if you wiggle one driver, the opposite side moves the same amount.

The center axle shows play between the (2) drive wheels; you can actually move them (ever so slightly, to be sure) in opposite directions! And again, the driver in the second picture shows no axle/wheel "play"; the opposite side (first photo) there is a bit of "slop" with that center wheel. I thought I had fixed that before, but apparently not...

I have built HO scale steam loco kits and have had to "build" all this, with success; in a model of this size and weight, it appears there are real "physics" involved here... 

Mark in Oregon

Your eccentric crank leans the wrong way in that photo.  Rods down, it should lean forward for piston valves.

Remove all but side rods.  Tighten center drivers, then test.

@bob2 posted:

Your eccentric crank leans the wrong way in that photo.  Rods down, it should lean forward for piston valves.

Remove all but side rods.  Tighten center drivers, then test.

Yikes!   ...hopefully my fixing that will help. Will attempt to get to this over the weekend.

Thanks for sticking with me on this Bob; I really do appreciate ALL your help.

Mark in Oregon

Bob, et al.

Okay, I've taken this down; dropped the main driver, pulled the (slightly) loose one, cleaned the heck out of it, reassembled with (blue) Loctite, and now we wait 24 hours...

This is good; it helps to see how this was put together. I was never quite clear on the whole "keyed driver" thing, but now, having seen it first hand, I get it. 

Mark in Oregon

Yes, but did you compare the angles before you glued it?  It can be done with a straightedge.  You can still do that - 15 minutes and that Loctite will not budge under normal handling.

Strummer,

The next time you take one of the drivers apart, please show us what makes the "keyed driver" a "keyed driver".

Thanks,

Ed

@bob2 posted:

Yes, but did you compare the angles before you glued it?  It can be done with a straightedge.  You can still do that - 15 minutes and that Loctite will not budge under normal handling.

...  ...  ... 

Gosh; guess now we'll have to wait and see. Hope you can grasp the low level of incompetence you're dealing with here!    

Mark in Oregon 

Right, 99% of the tenders have no rivet detail.  Easy to add with available rivet decals from several sources including Micromark.  A very few tenders were given rivets by one of the former owners of the line after All Nation but very few were produced that way.

@Ed Kelly posted:

Strummer,

The next time you take one of the drivers apart, please show us what makes the "keyed driver" a "keyed driver".

Thanks,

Ed

Near as I can tell, in this case it simply means that one "side" of the axle itself has a flat area; which then aligns with a similar spot on the driver. Kind of a "3/4 moon" type thing...

Mark in Oregon

Strummer,

Got it.

Thanks,

Ed

Sure thing, Ed.

I guess that's what it means. It also means (I think) that quartering is "built-in", since you can't assemble the wheel to the axle any way other than aligning those "flat" areas, right?  Bob?...

Mark in Oregon

Okay gang

Dove back in and reassembled; the driver in question was still just a hair off. Getting it off the axle again after the Loctite was the hardest part. Re-set, re-"Loctited" and after about 4 1/2 hours of fussing, it's back together and running well...as of now. 

Question: the way this was made, once the threaded main crankpin is fully screwed into the driver, it sets it's own "angle" for the eccentric crank, which (in this case anyway), is slightly towards the cab, not the cylinders: at about 1 0' clock. If it's supposed to lean towards the front of the engine (at about 11 0'clock), why is it this way? Since the angle is the same on both sides, it works, but...?

Something else: the motor/ worm shafts are connected with that large brass collar which is held in place by those spring steel pins. This makes for a very rigid assembly. Seems to me a slightly flexible connection, such as a universal joint, would make for a more "forgiving" (and perhaps smoother running) coupling. Thoughts?

The good news is that, after taking this thing almost completely apart, I now have a sense of how it was designed, and should be able to trouble-shoot/repair it the next time it seizes up...which should be sometime in the next week or so!   

Mark in Oregon

Toyota #0 hose, and K&S spacers on the shafts to make a snug fit.  It is just high quality vacuum hose; the longer piece is cheaper (?).

Loctite becomes a sticky liquid with a little heat.

"bob2"

Yes, "Toyota vacuum hose"; I remember you writing about it in on various forums and (I think) in your 1/48ft. magazine articles. I know you posted a picture of one of these models early on in this discussion: have you personally tried it (the hose) on a Ten Wheeler such as this? Is your example "stock", or did you modify the driveline in some way?

Good to know regarding "heat": I guess in a situation such as this the proper approach would be to heat the axle (steel) as opposed to the driver (cast).

Any thoughts about those crankpins...?...anybody?

Mark in Oregon

Here's a crappy photo of the subject: please note the blurriness:

This is because it's actually running!    

Mark in Oregon

One of these is currently listed on eBay, in its unbuilt and "raw" state:

(eBay photo)

It's interesting (to me, anyway) to see it as it came from the factory...looks like a lot of work!

Mark in Oregon

Looks like a fun project.  One more fun project I don't have time for, but I'd really enjoy building one of these from the ground up.

Seeing the amount of work really involved makes me appreciate even more the skill and care the original builder of my example put into his efforts.

Mark in Oregon

Totally agree.  The old Mel Thornburgh articles on building locos and stuff with a and drill and a file are insanely cool too and those loco's to my eye really look good too.

Um - the Varney ten-wheeler is regarded as a screwdriver assembly kit.  Not much to it.  The price on that example -$100 when I looked - is ok.

I did not realize (until I saw that listing) that the cab came in (3) pieces. Would it normally be screwed together or soldered?

Mark in Oregon

@Dennis Holler posted:

Totally agree.  The old Mel Thornburgh articles on building locos and stuff with a and drill and a file are insanely cool too and those loco's to my eye really look good too.

Like this?    The Model Railroader from 1941...

Mark in Oregon

Yes sir Mark that is one of his articles!!  He did a bunch including an 0-6-0, 4-4-2, 4-6-2, and that 2-8-2 at the very least.  The 4-4-2 and pullman cars made it into a nice little book that I am lucky enough to have.  It shows up on ebay from time to time.  Title is "Building a Passenger train"  from Kalmbach. I think Stephen on here has a 4-4-2 that was built from that article.

I just got thru looking at these 3 pages, excellent stuff PLUS I'm happy to see Ed B. on the forum!!!  We haven't "talked" in a few years.

You guys talk of making rivets, that's why I'm using Archer rivets in my attempt to scratch build an ACL 4-8-4 Class R-1 tender.  I got done with 1 side today, must be 1500 rivets just on the 1 side.  This is my 3rd model using these rivet decals and finally managed to do it without messing them up.  No photos at this time and if/when I do I'll start my own post.

The Archer rivets on a flat surface are fairly easy and look good under paint, but at the rate of $18/sheet, a $5 piece of styrene quickly can become a $100+ piece.