All things AMT, Auburn, KMT and Kusan

The AMC Santa Fe RDC (1948-1954?) is beautiful, it was passed down to me by Dad when Lionel released the #400 Budd RDC (1956-1958), he liked the powerful motor and knuckle couplers.  Dad is long gone (RIP), but his love for trains now reaches to his multiple Great Great Grandchildren.  Here's a few pictures of my two BUDD's, both still run, have been serviced and lately reside in their original boxes.  Question for the AMC experts, it seems that the AMC Budd should have plastic inserts (lights?) on each end above the doors...I think so, but don't know for sure.  The reason I think so is because it is recessed and has two holes...probably for lamp lens. Thanks for the opportunity to ask the question.  .  Chuck

Next is the Lionel #400.

Happy railroading!

Chuck242

That's the kind of story that this thread needs - thanks for sharing that!

There should be two clear lenses above the doors, and a red and green marker light insert on either side of the cab.

MTN

Thank you for grouping all these threads together for good reference on AMT/KMT/Kusan, etc. Being originally from northwest Indiana these trains are very interesting and special. I have collected, and run, some of the more common ones and enjoy the fine craftsmanship that went into building these.  I find the Menards boxcars look to be using similar tooling to the original AMT/KMT scale boxcars so they fit right in.

Dean

It should also be mentioned that those wonderful AMT Budd cars feature directional lighting controlled through the reversing unit. A nice addition at the time they were marketed.

C. J.

Thank you gentlemen, clear lens make sense, do you know where I could find two?  If not, I am sure I can fabricate something, send a picture if you can.  As to the directional lighting control, that is something that I was unaware of, great to know, and I look forward to checking that out.  We do own some neat stuff don't we!

@Chuck242 posted:

Thank you gentlemen, clear lens make sense, do you know where I could find two?  If not, I am sure I can fabricate something, send a picture if you can.  As to the directional lighting control, that is something that I was unaware of, great to know, and I look forward to checking that out.  We do own some neat stuff don't we!

Those will be tough to find - dealer stashes of AMT/Kusan parts are like the proverbial hen's teeth. I came across a pile of AMT train items and parts/disassembled cars about 25 years ago and there were unfortunately no RDC trim pieces (I mainly got passenger car parts and pieces, built up several cars and sold off a few of those that were duplicates of cars I already had). You can watch e*bay and see if you can find a junk shell with the missing lenses, or scrounge in junk boxes at train shows. The sad story is that after Kusan tried unloading the remaining train items after production stopped that whatever remained was used as landfill under highways. There may be collectors in the Nashville/Franklin, Tennessee area who have parts stashes but I'm afraid I don't have any contacts there. It's possible that lenses could be 3D printed - that would be the most likely path towards finishing your RDC's off (look closely in the boxes the RDCs came/are stored in - you might run across 1 or 2 of them).

I’ll see if I can dig up the elusive Kusan KMT checkerboard New Haven scale sized boxcar later today and take a snap of it - the complexity of masking probably resulted in a lot of discards (leading to its scarcity today).

Menards made a New Haven checkerboard that is somewhat similar to the Kusan-Auburn catalog number 9011 New Haven 36406 checkerboard boxcar shown on Roberts Trains webpage.

I have a decent collection of the easy to find AMT/KMT/Kusan boxcars. The Western Pacific is probably the most rare one I have, if it is rare at all. The shell was mounted on a metal lionel frame with lionel trucks and was listed as a Lionel boxcar.

Dean

I've always liked KMT's FA's. Here's some old and small pics of some of the paint schemes KMT offered their FA's in:

Frisco...

CB&Q...

Katy freight...

Mop freight...

Mop passenger...

I really like the way the body snuggles down onto the trucks. I also like that they have fixed pilots.

Shame about the mechanisms.

I used to wonder if I could adapt a KMT FA shell onto a Lionel cast frame FA. If so, I would want shells from all the above!

Andre

I've seen a couple of FA shells put on Lionel 2000 series cast frame units.  The Kusan body was made to mimic the Lionel body, flush bottom.  The pilot, fuel tank, steps etc. were all cut off.

@PW53inVa posted:

Menards made a New Haven checkerboard that is somewhat similar to the Kusan-Auburn catalog number 9011 New Haven 36406 checkerboard boxcar shown on Roberts Trains webpage.

I have a decent collection of the easy to find AMT/KMT/Kusan boxcars. The Western Pacific is probably the most rare one I have, if it is rare at all. The shell was mounted on a metal lionel frame with lionel trucks and was listed as a Lionel boxcar.

Dean

Your Western Pacific boxcar has a different number than the Kusan KMT model (its number is 18841) - it's most likely a Frank's Roundhouse or Kris KMT car (sheet metal frames were not used by AMT Auburn KMT Kusan for their boxcars, reefers and stock cars - they all had diecast frames). On a scarcity comparison, in my opinion the Kusan KMT brown "Rides Like a Feather" 1950s production boxcar is more scarce than a Lionel 6464-100 orange "Rides Like a Feather" car; collector demand, however, is another thing altogether - the handful of folks who activeley seek out/colllect AMT Auburn KMT Kusan trains is miniscule compared to the number of Lionel collectors - that probably balances out the supply versus demand factor.

KMT on the left; K-Line on the right.

@jay jay posted:

KMT on the left; K-Line on the right.

Love those little Mop FA's!!

By some chance is the Kusan/KMT shell a direct fit onto a K-Line chassis?

Downside with a "KMT to K-Line" approach is I wasn't impressed with the jack rabbit starts of the only K-Line FA set (the "Texas Special" set) I owned back the mid-1990s. I figure it would take a solid-state transformer to avail better control over the can motor powered K-Line's. (I was using a PW ZW at the time and it has something like a 6v starting range?)

Andre

Jay/Jay - John, good looking Alcos. Is your KMT Missouri Pacific running on a Kline Alco chassis. I think I have seen others do this to get the original KMT 2 rail to run on 3 rail. Both are good lookers. 

MTN

You are right the western pacific is not the AMT/KMT scale type boxcar with the die cast frame. I do think it is a Kusan K-Series boxcar that originally had plastic frame and trucks as shown on Robert Trains webpage at https://www.robertstrains.com/Kusan2.htm  The previous owner mounted the Kusan shell on what looks like Lionel metal frame and trucks. Don't know if it is rare, but I have not seen too many of them on the auction sites. Kusan also made a K-series New Haven Checkerboard boxcar that is similar to the AMT/KMT scale one you have.

I found this Kusan K-Series Aluminum Co. hopper a while back and have not seen too many of these for sale.

Another K-series hopper I am fond of since I worked for these guys for almost 27 years is this one.

This one is also a favorite as I am originally from the midwest.

The one K-series hopper I cannot find, and have never seen on the auction sites, is the ACL 21640 hopper. This one is shown on Roberts Trains webpage https://www.robertstrains.com/Kusan6.htm If anyone has this one I would like to know as it seems rather rare.

K-line used the K-Series design to re-create these hoppers and I have a few.

Dean

"

Jay/Jay - John, good looking Alcos. Is your KMT Missouri Pacific running on a Kline Alco chassis. I think I have seen others do this to get the original KMT 2 rail to run on 3 rail. Both are good lookers. "

No, they are all original, and run on two-rail only. I just posed them to show they are from the same mold.

@PW53inVa posted:

Jay/Jay - John, good looking Alcos. Is your KMT Missouri Pacific running on a Kline Alco chassis. I think I have seen others do this to get the original KMT 2 rail to run on 3 rail. Both are good lookers.

MTN

You are right the western pacific is not the AMT/KMT scale type boxcar with the die cast frame. I do think it is a Kusan K-Series boxcar that originally had plastic frame and trucks as shown on Robert Trains webpage at https://www.robertstrains.com/Kusan2.htm The previous owner mounted the Kusan shell on what looks like Lionel metal frame and trucks. Don't know if it is rare, but I have not seen too many of them on the auction sites. Kusan also made a K-series New Haven Checkerboard boxcar that is similar to the AMT/KMT scale one you have.

I found this Kusan K-Series Aluminum Co. hopper a while back and have not seen too many of these for sale.

Another K-series hopper I am fond of since I worked for these guys for almost 27 years is this one.

This one is also a favorite as I am originally from the midwest.

The one K-series hopper I cannot find, and have never seen on the auction sites, is the ACL 21640 hopper. This one is shown on Roberts Trains webpage https://www.robertstrains.com/Kusan6.htm If anyone has this one I would like to know as it seems rather rare.

K-line used the K-Series design to re-create these hoppers and I have a few.

Dean

Good catch on the WP being a Kusan 0-27 boxcar shell - the lack of metal door guides should have been an identifying feature. I was thrown by the car number - I think the O-27 Kusan boxcars normally had graphics which matched the full sized cars - I’ll have to do some looking to verify if that’s the case.

The Kusan covered hoppers are nice - the ACL is eye catching but was probably a minuscule production run. I’ve seen one that wasn’t for sale - it was in a collection. The Aluminum Ore Company and GE Lamp cars are hard to find, with the GE more likely to pop up.

*****I checked the Greenberg AMT book and found a color picture that had the Kusan WP 0-27 WP Feather - the road number is the same as the car in the thread.

Well, if you like little Alco FA2's (and who doesn't), don't forget the PW-sized Williams.

Project a few years ago. They came with 2 flywheel motors. I added ERR Cruise Commander, Electrocouplers, Alco Railsounds. I also swapped one of the motor trucks into the dummy unit, putting 1 motor in each unit. For some reason. Easy swap, and I had to have a tether for the directional headlights and E'couplers anyway.

Die-cast trucks and sheet-metal frames. They sit down on the trucks nicely, too. Smooth. Slow when you want. Great switchers.

I have a couple questions about Kusan/KMT "O27" rolling stock: How do they compare in size to a Lionel 6464 boxcar?

* KMT "027" boxcar

* Hopper/Covered hopper

Some observations about "traditional" Lionel cast frame, Kusan, K-Line, and Williams FA's:

* I like the size and shape of all of them.

* I really like the way the bodies snuggle down on the trucks. (Yes, I have an appreciation for Lionel's PW "high water" stamped-frame FA's, but between Lionel's stamped frame and cast frame, the cast frame FA's are my favorites.)

* In spite of the gaping hole in the pilots seen in some of the brands, I like the fixed pilots.

However, (for me) the nod goes to the ozone smell that Lionel PW Alco's can produce. What can I say? I'm a sucker for that aroma!

Andre

@laming posted:

I have a couple questions about Kusan/KMT "O27" rolling stock: How do they compare in size to a Lionel 6464 boxcar?

* KMT "027" boxcar

* Hopper/Covered hopper

Some observations about "traditional" Lionel cast frame, Kusan, K-Line, and Williams FA's:

* I like the size and shape of all of them.

* I really like the way the bodies snuggle down on the trucks. (Yes, I have an appreciation for Lionel's PW "high water" stamped-frame FA's, but between Lionel's stamped frame and cast frame, the cast frame FA's are my favorites.)

* In spite of the gaping hole in the pilots seen in some of the brands, I like the fixed pilots.

However, (for me) the nod goes to the ozone smell that Lionel PW Alco's can produce. What can I say? I'm a sucker for that aroma!

Andre

The Kusan KMT 0-27 boxcar is approximately the same size as a Lionel 6464 and they look fine when run together. The Kusan KMT 0-27 hopper is a bit on the narrow side, looks fine with the Kusan KMT and Lionel 0-27 sized cars like the 6456 LV hopper and 6465 two dome Sunoco tankcar, a bit small looking next to scale sized cars. One car we haven't mentioned is the Kusan KMT tank car. This car's tank is a little narrower than a full scale car, but lengthwise looks realy good and can be coupled up to the AMT Auburn family of scale sized boxcars/reefers/cattle cars/gondolas/depressed center flatcars and the C&O style caboose with diecast frame, metal ladders and raings and marker lights. The Kusan KMT tankcar is a finely scaled car and is often found with custom paint and decals, and scale trucks and couplers - it's the most adaptable to scale-plating.  AMT Auburn and later Kusan KMT produced a depressed center flatcar decorated for Monon, the shell is gray (light gray for AMT Auburn, either light or dark gray on the Kusan made cars); the lettering color is different (dark red on AMT, maroon on Kusan). It looks good with the scale sized cars and was included in the scale sets made by Kusan KMT, although it's a bit smaller than scale. One way to identify a Kusan KMT depressed center flat is that they have turquoise plastic molded shells like their F units.

Thanks MTN for the input!

Though my primary modeling medium is HO. I still have this "thing" for traditional 3-rail that I make peace with. For now, my 3-rail collection is quite modest and only serves "Christmas Duty".

Anyway, I always find interest in traditional sized and O27 3-rail items, the largest of which would be Lionel 6464 type cars. Thus, they are my litmus test: "Will such-an-such car look okay next to a 6464?"

If the answer is "no... too small"... then I wonder if such a car could possibly look good among my Marx 3/16" 8-wheel litho.

In all, my small 3-rail interest is a fun diversion.

I hope to make it to a ripe old age and still be able to tinker with HO... but if not... there's my 3-rail.

Andre

@laming posted:

Thanks MTN for the input!

Though my primary modeling medium is HO. I still have this "thing" for traditional 3-rail that I make peace with. For now, my 3-rail collection is quite modest and only serves "Christmas Duty".

Anyway, I always find interest in traditional sized and O27 3-rail items, the largest of which would be Lionel 6464 type cars. Thus, they are my litmus test: "Will such-an-such car look okay next to a 6464?"

If the answer is "no... too small"... then I wonder if such a car could possibly look good among my Marx 3/16" 8-wheel litho.

In all, my small 3-rail interest is a fun diversion.

I hope to make it to a ripe old age and still be able to tinker with HO... but if not... there's my 3-rail.

Andre

I have a nice stash of tin Marx 3/16ths O gauge cars (quite a few new/boxed) - I was a little ahead of the Marx mania curve where interest has picked up on those beautiful 3/16ths lithoed cars, and ran them with American Flyer 3/16ths O gauge engines (I used a piece of heavy copper grounding wire and fashioned a crude "coupler" so I could run the Marx cars behind a Flyer engine with the harpoon couplers. I cobbled together a whistling Marx Pacemaker boxcar - I used a whistle mechanism out of a prewar 0-27 whistle tender, did some frame snipping, added Marx pick-ups for power and wired it up - it was fun showing it off to other Marx collectors who were amazed that the whistle moved right along with train.    The Marx 3/16ths O gauge tin cars match up with Flyer's 3/16ths O gauge cars size-wise, but I find Flyer's sheet metal cars lacking in detail, and, while the very nicely detailed diecast Flyer cars looked nice, they weighed too much and a decent sized train couldn't be built up without a lot of driver slippage. It's also tough finding clean, diecast 3/16ths O Flyer freight and passenger cars (zinc pest, warpage, details snapped off, paint didn't adhere well) - it takes work and time to accumulate clean E graded examples of Flyer diecast 3/16ths O gauge cars.

For the Marxists amongst us, if you haven't stumbled across Walt Heitshew's Marx site check it out:

http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin.htm

Tons of top grade 6", 7", 3/16ths O, British and even plastic Marx trains are waiting to be looked over. Be sure and checlk out the custom creations - there's some awesome modeling and creative skills on display.

And now, back to AMT Auburn KMT Kusan trains - feel free to ask quastions and I'll try to help out.