You're breathing it right now, in fact.
@Brendan posted:That's sarcasm, right?
Brendan
Helium is a trace gas on Earth. Most of our stockpiles are byproducts of the nuclear power industry.
Edit: correction, it seems that the US sold off its strategic stockpile and now most helium is a byproduct of natural gas distillation.
Helium is one of the most abundant elements. It is hard to tell if someone is joking or not.
Brendan
Not at Party City!
Brendan
Guys, get this topic back on track please!
Want to run trains on a railroad running PSR? Good luck.
Today's local paper (St.Paul Pioneer Press) has an article on the MN state legislature just approving $10 million towards adding a second Amtrak train between the Twin Cities and Chicago. If all continues to go well, it will start in 2024. Biden's infrastructure plan also includes reinstating trains from the Twin Cities to Duluth - Superior.
Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, everything else is a 'trace' gas making up the remaining 1%. However, hydrogen is more common than helium; it's believed part of the reason the Hindenburg burned the way it did was the US wouldn't sell Nazi Germany helium so it had to use combustible hydrogen.
In any case, the difference between a blimp and an airship is the construction, not the gas. A blimp is basically a big balloon with gas inside it; an airship has a rigid frame with large pockets inside for holding gas.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:I'm happy to live in a country where we're all welcome, and in fact many people believe obligated, to say what you believe. However in addition to the emotion that all of us are throwing into our comments, please add some facts.
Ray, what I hear in your comment is something I hear very often, but is not based on fact. Do you look at Amtrak's on-time performance figures? Region by region? They're posted you know. Are the airlines on time? What do their on-time figures say?
Manny, with all do respect what happened 30 years ago has little bearing on today. Things change, and they do so rather quickly, even with railroads. Buy tickets. Try it out. You might enjoy it. Then come back with your comments. We'd welcome your observations.
I normally take a trip that's about 4 or 5 hours long, several times a year, and have gone cross-country a few times as well. The shorter trips are mostly on time, or at the worst rarely more than an hour off, and the most-extended long trip I've been on was two-hours late coming in after a 33 hour journey. The equipment is always clean, although worn at times.
In my experience going back thirty years Amtrak's treatment of its passengers has definitely not been as sub-humans, especially when compared to the airlines -- and there are too many instances where the airlines don't keep their treatment of passengers brief.
A couple of questions for both of you:
1.) When was the last time you took a trip on Amtrak?
2.) How often do you take it?
"Bellyaching-without-backup" has become a career -- on many kinds of forums. It pays to know what the data says before adding your two-cents worth on any topic.
Finally a comment about Post-COVID: We are not now, and will likely never be, "post-Covid" because the virus is mutating and strengthening. If we don't smack it down hard via vaccinations it will be back, and soon. Have you ever thought about why we can't cure the common cold?
We may never be able to because it mutates faster than we can keep up with it. COVID-19 is not much different, and making the situation worse is that COVID-19 is much more deadly than the common cold. If we allow COVID-19 to mutate, and return stronger, we'll be shutting things down again soon.
"Just my $0.02".
Mike
I'm so tired of the apologists for Amtrak.
My friend and I did a railpass trip last year. As railfans, we had realistic expectations of what to we were getting into. Even at that, we were dismayed and appalled by some of the rotten service that we received as so-called first class passengers.
The average Mr. and Mrs. Joe Blow and their children have unrealistically high expectations, based on Amtrak's brochures and other advertising. Imagine them going through some of the things we were subjected to.
While sitting in Hartsfield Airport (ATL), preparing to board our flight to Denver, we received texts advising us that our first train, #5, was cancelled due to fire in Glenwood Canyon. (The previous day's #5 went through on UP across Wyoming.) the message concluded with "No alternate transportation will be provided". Nice way to leave people high and dry.
Being savvy, we got up the next morning, booked a flight to ABQ, and went to the Amtrak Ticket Office in DEN, before the angry mob arrived.
The very helpful agent thanked us for having our itinerary changes written down in an organized and concise manner and proceeded to change our booking to #3 ABQ-LAX, and #14 LAX-EMY. We thanked him and wished him luck, as we knew the other stranded passengers were not going to be as easy to deal with as we were. He was in for a real lousy day. We asked him if we could have an upgrade to first class on our second to last train (Capitol Limited CHI-WAS), to make up for our inconvenience and the cost of our airfare to salvage our trip. He told us that he could not make that happen, but that Amtrak Philadelphia could and probably would. (They did).
So far, so good, however missing #5 through the Rockies and Sierras was a major disappointment. For my money, that is Amtrak's most scenic route. No I'm not blaming Amtrak for the fire, but the stranding is unconscionable.
Fast forward to #14, a few days later, from EMY-TAC. The conductor visited our roomette three times, twice after we had gone to sleep, because our sleeping car coupons were prepared incorrectly. WE DIDN'T PREPARE THEM, AMTRAK DID, but we were being treated like we did something wrong and having our sleep interrupted to boot. A much nicer and exceedingly more competent conductor, the next morning, apologized for the other jerk's behavior and advised us to visit the K-Falls ticket office during the extended stop and they would fix the clerical mistakes. We did so, but the crummy sleep from the night before caused my to doze and miss some of the scenery in the Cascades.
Two days later, we arrived at SEA, to find the platform elevators out of order. After dragging my bags up an extremely long staircase we found ourselves on a street corner across from the station. There were only two ways into the station, a long staircase down or an elevator which, you guessed it, was out of order. When I inquired as to why all the elevators were out of order I was told that was the only way that they could keep the homeless and drug addicts out of them. So once again, screw the people who pay the freight and, instead, kowtow to the dregs of society.
To be fair, most of the on-board personnel on the various trains worked hard to accommodate the passengers, with the exception of the one dining car attendant on the Empire Builder and the entire D.C. based crew on the Capitol.
The dining car attendent on #8 asked us if we were eating in the diner or taking our meals to our roomette. We chose to eat in the diner and told him so. He returned a few minutes later and literally dropped a bag with our food on our table and walked away without comment. The meal was only halfway heated.
The Capitol crew was utter garbage, from the surly, imperious conductor on down. Our sleeping car attendant was MIA when it came to setting up the room and never answered the call button. When I finally found him over an hour later he was trying to chat up a female passenger. In the morning I had to cool my heels at the snack bar while the female attendant was flirting away with a male passenger at one of the tables. These people should get their nookie on their own time, not mine.
Adding more trains and shiny new equipment means nothing if you don't provide a pleasurable travel experience.
I think the term CUSTOMER EXPERIANCE is off most businesses radars, inluding Amtrak.
Isn't that the truth
@OGR posted:Guys, get this topic back on track please!
It's right in Wikipedia along with footnotes and sources.
As Amtrak approached profitability in 2020, the company undertook planning to expand and create new intermediate-distance corridors across the country. Included were several new services in Ohio, Tennessee, Colorado, and Minnesota, among other states.[76][77]
During the COVID-19 pandemic, Amtrak continued operating as an essential service. It started requiring face coverings the week of May 17, and limited sales to 50% of capacity.[78] Most long-distance routes were reduced to three weekly round trips in October 2020.[79][80]
In March 2021, following President Joe Biden's American Jobs Plan announcement, Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn outlined a proposal called Amtrak Connects US that would expand state-supported intercity corridors with an infusion of upfront capital assistance.[81][82] Also in March 2021, Amtrak announced plans to return 12 of its long-distance routes to daily schedules later in the spring.[83] This would expand service to cities including Las Vegas, Phoenix, Baton Rouge, Nashville, Chattanooga, Louisville, Columbus (Ohio), Wilmington (North Carolina), Cheyenne, Montgomery, Concord, and Scranton.[84]
John
@Nick Chillianis posted:I'm so tired of the apologists for Amtrak.
Adding more trains and shiny new equipment means nothing if you don't provide a pleasurable travel experience.
All,
I'm not an apologist for anybody or anything. I'm just stating the facts as I've experienced them. I have truly NEVER had a bad experience, and I take Amtrak often, and to many places. Annoying at times? Yes, several. Bad enough to make me livid? No.
Many of you have obviously had bad luck with it -- you probably should stay away.
(It would be a pity for the moderators to have to strike this thread because it's descended irretrievably into politics but I think it's time to do so. Any possible value that we may have gotten out of it, say for instance learning from or helping fellow modelers, or train lovers, and travelers in this case as well, has long been gone.)
Mike
Another option for railfans, who want to see broad swaths of the country, is to consider riding the beautifully restored (by clubs and private owners) vintage coaches, domes, sleepers, and dining cars that are pulled at the end of a regularly scheduled Amtrak train.
https://www.amtrak.com/privately-owned-rail-cars
I've done this. Yes, you are beholden to the Amtrak schedule, which can mean delays. But the car's furnishings--except for the toilets--usually beat the amenities of any modern Amtrak coaches. The staff on these cars are exceptional because they are typically railfans themselves who actually want to be on the train!
@Brendan posted:I've used trains when I could to travel for business. A few observations. Until they have the same infrastructure (car rentals, public transport, etc) that airports have at their destinations, it is a non-starter. Arrival times at cities along the route can be inconvenient. Pulling into a city at 2AM or 1PM is generally not convenient. Being delayed an hour or more, regularly, is not exactly an endearing feature. I used the same formula for any trip - if driving takes 125% or less time compared to any other method, drive.
Brendan
Case in point: #3 Arrives Flagstaff (stop for the Grand Canyon, one of the biggest natural attractions in the United States) at 04:19. I am actually hoping the train runs 2-3 hours late. Having monitored its performance over the last month, it appears that there is a high likelihood that my wish will be fulfilled.
Outside of the northeast and a few short corridors, Amtrak will never serve as any more than a land cruise. If you want to retain riders, you will have to provide services akin to what you find on a cruise ship, and that would by necessity cause fares to skyrocket.
It's pipe-dreaming to think that long distance trains will ever be the choice of business travelers again. They are an anachronism to most members of the general public. I know that is hard to swallow, but it is a fact nonetheless.
@Nick Chillianis posted:Outside of the northeast and a few short corridors, Amtrak will never serve as any more than a land cruise. If you want to retain riders, you will have to provide services akin to what you find on a cruise ship, and that would by necessity cause fares to skyrocket.
It's pipe-dreaming to think that long distance trains will ever be the choice of business travelers again. They are an anachronism to most members of the general public. I know that is hard to swallow, but it is a fact nonetheless.
That's one way of looking at it, but from a different vantage point than a lot of people in this country have.
For those ensconced in larger cities, with their own automobiles, and the ability and desire to drive long distances, and living near airports with convenient passenger schedules, and who can afford to fly - yes, for many of these people, train travel for any reason other than leisure may not make sense, other than for those living adjacent to major corridors. But looking more closely at the data, and studies that have been done, and listening to the consensus of residents of smaller cities along Amtrak routes, and a different point of view and a different reality shows up. For many people in small towns and cities, and their surrounding areas, Amtrak is their only choice for travel beyond their immediate area. This is one of the factors driving the consideration for expansion.
Many people don't own their own car, or can't afford to keep it insured and serviced or have the ability to drive long distances, because of health reasons or cost or any number of things. These small towns and cities may be hundreds of miles away from airports with regularly scheduled airline service. For these people, Amtrak service is important, and they don't want it taken away. It is a public service of great importance to them, and it is a necessity for many of them. It is their link to the outside world. Big city dwellers don't get it, and they don't think about it, either.
This has been shown in many studies. I recall a number of years ago when consideration was being given to discontinuing the Texas Eagle, which runs from Chicago to St. Louis to Little Rock to Dallas and Ft. Worth and on to San Antonio (linking with the Sunset Limited). There was a tremendous outcry from the public in smaller cities and towns along the route, citing the same arguments and concerns mentioned above. There were organized campaigns to fight the discontinuance, letter writing and telephone calls, etc. From this, congressional representatives got involved, and after the uproar, plans to shelf the Texas Eagle were scrapped.
These Amtrak patrons aren't looking for a cruise ship experience. They just want a reasonably confortable method of transportation they can access.
Trains as travel are pretty much DOA in the states. All you have to do is look at Eurorail and Japan for "rail done right". We cant even get a high speed train driven in california across huge swathes of empty land without landowners demanding fair market x3 or more in compensation.
Here in MD, we have a maglev project to drive from dc to baltimore with very few stops and a much-faster-than-car-or-Marc total trip time. Yet, all I see is people _who aren't even in the affected path_ putting "Stop the Maglev" signs all over the place. Maglev trains are immensely energy efficient, fast, and easily outcompete things like the Marc or the Amtrak NE corridor.
The (DC/MD) Metro purple line, from the east side of dc to the wnw, intended to efficiently move people from where there are no jobs, to where there are jobs, has had one endless setback after another. The silver line, from dc to Dulles Airport is years overdue, and has had critical concrete pour failures.
We have done a terrible job maintaining our infrastructure, and nobody seems to want to invest in it, be it rail or road.
I believe that Nick and Erik have precisely described factual reality. Although there are other viewpoints, the last 50 years would indicate that these are perhaps based on wishes and hopes.
90% of Americans aren't train people and don't want to be train people. The inner city elite in NY, Chicago and other mega-cities who don't own cars and don't drive are a very tiny minority and don't reflect the rest of America.
As far as basic transportation, Folks who simply cannot afford to rent a car are better off taking a bus. (I traveled across the country twice on Trailways when I was young, and it took me to almost any place wanted to go.) Improving long term bus transportation, bus stations and bus stops would be incredibly cheaper than building entire rail lines from scratch, and far more useful.
And, as others have pointed out, the getting from Point A (one train station) to Point B (another train station), leaves you stranded at Point B and far from the mega-suburbs which rule this country. Train stations do not have the collateral supportive infra-structure to help you complete the last 25 to 50 miles of your journey. That leaves you with the option of taking a filthy taxi ride, or calling somebody to come pick you up. Bus stations can be situated almost anywhere on a one acre piece of ground that has a parking lot.
Remember about 5 or 10 years ago when the "Plan" was to offer the little Smart-Cars for rent at train stations? That lasted about 6 months. Nobody liked the trains, or the Smart Cars. :-(
Mannyrock
@Mannyrock posted:90% of Americans aren't train people and don't want to be train people. The inner city elite in NY, Chicago and other mega-cities who don't own cars and don't drive are a very tiny minority and don't reflect the rest of America.
I would offer that a more accurate statement is "90% of Americans have never been on a train and don't know if they want to be train people."
I don't know if we have the train system that they have in Europe, but on my extensive business related travels to Europe, I almost ALWAYS prefer to take the train over a plane. I find train travel (at least where there are dependable schedules) to be much more relaxing and comfortable than plane travel.
I don't mean any disrespect, and I don't live in the city, but calling these folks "inner city elite" is a pretty condescending thing to do. Insulting folks is not a way to seriously get a point across.
Jim
Wow J,. most folks would consider being called Elite a compliment.
Almost impossible now to say anything on this board without somebody saying they are offended and a victim.
Oh well, . . . at least I didn't say Inner City Snowflakes. :-)
Mannyrock
Manny, I seriously doubt you meant it as a compliment. Otherwise, why say it?
You don't know me, not a victim, and not offended, as I don't live in the city. 
Jim
Manny - It seems you would know it's not just the meaning of a word, but also the context in which it is used.
Let's not forget that Amtrak is a Quasi government entity. Mostly private with some federal rules. Without those rules they could get away with customer abuse. Let's not forget The Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 is a United States federal law that was designed to regulate the railroad industry, particularly its monopolistic practices.[1]
Here is a lawsuit filed by Public Citizen (which is described by corporate media as "left leaning" to disparage it) that got little or no cable news coverage.
Beginning in 2019, Amtrak amended the terms and conditions for its passenger rail transportation services to include an arbitration provision that forces individuals into a private justice system that has no judge or jury, has limited right to appeal and is not bound by precedent. Amtrak’s arbitration provision states that it is “intended to be as broad as legally possible” – applying not only to individuals who buy tickets, but to “family members, minor passengers, colleagues and companies” for whom tickets are bought.
The provision specifies a litany of claims that cannot be heard in court, including negligence, gross negligence, disfigurement, wrongful death, medical and hospital expenses, discrimination and failure to accommodate an actual or perceived disability. The clause also prohibits class actions.............................................................................Amtrak, which began operating in 1971, is an institution of the federal government that must comply with the U.S. Constitution and acts only pursuant to authority delegated by Congress. Congress directed Amtrak to provide passenger rail services to America’s travelers; it did not authorize Amtrak to force travelers to waive their right to go to court if they are injured by Amtrak, the lawsuit says.
Yet complete privatization efforts have been going on for quite some time and continue to do so.
https://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=3873
The vehicle for this is corporate owned media who have reduced discussions to only three criterion:
1. WORDS - what someone said, slogans, grouping people into categories. Almost all American media is focused on Words. Take a look at the articles, take notes in front of the TV. See for yourself
2. TONE - How to read into what someone said if you want to put words in their mouthes.
3. OPTICS - statues, facial expressions, gestures, etc
What's missing? SUBSTANCE. In 1984 we had 50 independent news organizations. They have been consolidated into roughly six who have dumbed down the conversations into the three categories I just mentioned so that a politician in America today cannot even run for office without a slogan. If it isn't simplistic, it isn't newsworthy. People are now categorized and grouped by what they SAY and you can't tell the person grouping them otherwise. Even with the ability to do more research today than in the fifties, sixties, and seventies thanks to the internet people are somehow less informed and at each other's throats much more. Who benefits? Those who already have everything that own the media, the courts, and our politicians.
Rant over.
John
Total ground transportation: Amtrak and bus (Greyhound, Trailways, and other dependable companies) working together so people can travel the USA to many chosen destinations with no fuss or high blood pressure attacks.
Would not a USA rail/bus pass get the job done and not see any wars breaking out between them? A win/win situation or not? Let's hear your ideas please.
Jim,
Glad to hear you were not offended.
I've made an excellent living advising inner city elite folks, including some living in Manhattan. I doubt that they will ride trains much though.
I too have enjoyed riding the trains in Europe, but like most Americans, I am not ready to pay the very high income taxes they pay in order to get the service.
I have absolutely no doubt that Amtrak can establish long term passenger routes, from big cities to big cities. What I tend to doubt, though, is that they will make a profit based on passenger service for those routes. They will have to continue to get our tax money to survive, and will probably have to haul 50 cars of cargo behind the passenger cars to make ends meet.
Trinity, in the 1970s, Trailways offered the "Golden Eagle Line," than ran really nice new buses, on a non-stop basis, between major cities that were about 250 miles apart. The seats were really great, and they had a "Stewardess" on board, who wore a nice uniform and served box lunches and cold drinks. I use to ride it from Durham, NC, to D.C. about 4 times a year.
Rail and bus service will have to be fully integrated to make the system work.
Mannyrock
After I retired from my main gig I piloted a 19 seat airliner between Ely Nevada and Las Vegas. It was a government subsidized route. After airline deregulation many communities were left without airline service. We usually had 1 to 3 passengers each way. We were a private airline and not government employees.
Maybe it would be better if the existing railroads provided passenger service subsidized as we were. It would probably be cheaper than funding Amtrak.
(Based on pure guesswork with no facts to back up anything.) 
Mannyrock: Sounds like the Trailways Golden Eagle Line trips you took were more than just a way to get from point A to B for you but provided lot's of fun as well.
GV Dobler: In our globalized world today, I've often wondered why Austrialia's operator of long distant passenger trains hasn't considered running trains in America like they do with the Indian Pacific, The Ghan, Great Southern, and The Overland on the rails Down Under? As a subsidiary, it would provide the same type of excellent service in North America.
Check out Journey Beyond Rail Expeditions on YouTube. It's a great way to take the train over a good cup of java in the comfort of your home!
Item: The Indian Pacific includes auto racks so you can take the family vehicle with you much like AutoTrain does to/from Florida on the U.S. East Coast.
Joe US Army Transportation Corps 1964-67 49th Transportation Group (Germany)
I do get a kick out of folks who compare rail in Europe and Japan with the United States for two reasons:
1. At some point in the 1940's both Europe and Japan were encouraged to completely rebuild their rail infrastructure from scratch. Something happened to it.
2. Geography.
Jon 
To state that the war torn status of Japan and Europe was the sole reason for their modern rail lacks credibility. Further, Japan has extensive mountainous terrain. It isnt flat like the eastern seaboard (where the NE Corridor is just baaaaaaaad). Any extended rail trip in Japan will have you running along side mountain cliffs, at the edge of the ocean, _through_ mountains, across highly active seismic terrain, past locations prone to flooding and mudslides, you name it. Yet some how, even during the Great Tohoku Earthquake, _the rail never stopped running_. Moreover, Japan simply executed eminent domain anywhere they needed land, and did not muck about with NIMBYs. Fundamentally, the Japanese culture is about cooperation looking out for communal interests. There are a lot of negatives that come with such a heavy focus on the community over the individual, but mobilizing for the common good is definitely not one of those negatives.
Here is a good read on why their bullet trains never stopped, despite the enormous scale of the Great Tohoku Earthquake:
Terrifying.
Jon
The japantoday article is, and is not accurate. Would have to look to see why it was written the way it was.
Evicting people in Japan is a BIG nono. Again, comes back to community. But if you look at local and bullet train lines, you will see they rip right through neighborhoods and towns, splitting them in half, with weird, curvy roads to get through and under the line to the other side. Taking peoples rice fields is 100% free game. Kicking people out of houses, not so much. So generally, new lines and existing lines ran through areas where they could take the land, without impacting the community, and went to excessive lengths to ensure that neighborhoods/towns they bifurcated could still function as before. It is largely all done with these things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...sen_201408081002.jpg
that I cant remember the name of. It isnt a trustle... but like, a hm, i dunno. Someone knows the name of it probably. 
It demonstrates minimum land impact to ensure the route was executed on. Given that the MD maglev is also on piers like this, it is hard to see why it is such a huge deal here. The maglev project is in extensive collaboration with Japanese rail companies, but hey, we cant have nice things!
Re: US ED, look no farther than the mess the keystone? pipeline project was in before it was finally killed and burnt with fire.
The california rail project, land was seized, _but nobody is getting paid_. That isn't a very well organized project!
@Erik the Newbie posted:The japantoday article is, and is not accurate. Would have to look to see why it was written the way it was.
"Japan has very weak eminent domain powers, as evidenced by the high-profile opposition to the expansion of Narita International Airport, and the disproportionately large amounts of financial inducement given to residents on sites slated for redevelopment in return for their agreement to leave, one well-known recent case being that of Roppongi Hills."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain
The Supreme Court in Japan by the way has 15 justices not 9. But they too are unelected.
John
Based on the threads title I just have visions, or is it nightmares, of enormous tidal waves of red ink. The scope of which would make the Cali Hi-Speed Boondoggle small in comparison and not to mention the adverse impact done to the valley farming areas.
@KOOLjock1 posted:I do get a kick out of folks who compare rail in Europe and Japan with the United States for two reasons:
1. At some point in the 1940's both Europe and Japan were encouraged to completely rebuild their rail infrastructure from scratch. Something happened to it.
2. Geography.
Jon
Jon,
I don't think that most of us are a naive as you might think. 
Will we ever have good passenger rail service though the entire U.S.? Absolutely not, and one of the main reasons is what you have stated, geography. After all, the U.S. is a really big place. Could we have better passenger rail service? Absolutely.
When I take trains in Europe, its usually trips of upwards of a couple of hundred miles. I can easily get from my hotel to a train station is city 1 (often without even a taxi) arrive at the station 30 minutes before the train leaves, arrive in city 2 and easily get to my hotel. If I fly, I usually have to take a long taxi ride from my hotel in city 1 to the airport, get there two hours before my flight, go through a long security line, fly to my destination, then have a long taxi ride to my new hotel in city 2. Train travel is a much, much, more relaxing (and often cheaper) alternative.
We also need to be careful when we talk about "Europe", as rail service is not the same through the whole continent.
I think we also kid ourselves when we talk about taxes and subsidization. Federal taxes help pay for air travel, roadways, and keeping waterways navigable. To be clear, I don't advocate spending unlimited money on upgrading passenger service in the U.S, but I think some degree of spending to improve this service really makes sense.
Jim
To put US spending on railroad subsidies in perspective:
1. US - $1.4 Billion
2. China - $128 Billion
3. India - $5.8 Billion
4. Russia - $1.5 Billion
5. Europe: Take the following chart and multiply Euros x $1.19 to get the figures
John
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Regarding the comparison of the trains systems in the U.S. vs Europe and Japan,
Do we need to consider that after WWII, the U.S. paid to substantially rebuild the infrastructure of most of those countries, through the Marshall Plan and similar programs? Their rail lines, being military targets for many years, had to have been substantially destroyed. Those countries may tout their great transportations systems, but the fact of the matter is that they would have been substantially third-world countries for 50 years after the war if we hadn't provided the financing to rebuild them. (Query: Did France ever repay its War debt to the U.S. after the War? I doubt it.)
One of my law partners, being 15 years older than me, grew up in Hamburg in the late 1940s and early 1950s. (His father was a Vice President of Ford Motor Europe.) He said that large areas of the city still lay in ruins and rubble at that time.
I don't remember hearing that the U.S. paid hundreds of millions (perhaps billions?) to upgrade our transportation system from the ground up after the War. (Perhaps the closest thing was the building of the Interstate Highway System in the early 1960s?) I can't remember when AMTRAK came into being. Wasn't it in the 1960s?
Mannyrock
Amtrak officially started operations on May 1st, 1971. President Nixon signed the legislation that brought Amtrak into existence. There has not ever been a significant investment in a national rail passenger network in this country compared to other forms of mass transportation.
https://www.cbo.gov/system/fil...-10/41955-Amtrak.pdf
This is an extremely long, painful read. If you asked why I bothered to read it, mostly because I was curious about the topic and wanted to further educated myself.
Two things were imminently noticeable:
Page 79 has an extensive list of Amtrak services that recover _less than 1/3rd of operating costs_. Not half, or 2/3rds. 1/3rd!!!
Page 46 demonstrates that TCO for rail per seat mile (in dollars) is .12, vrs buses at .04, and AIR!!! at .08. Thats right, TCO per seat mile is higher than even air! And this is back in 1980, before they jammed us all into planes like sardines. I am going on a vacay to Seattle from MD this late august, and I am not looking forward to being a sardine. :|
There are a lot of interesting figures in that document, that have held relatively stable over the years. Cbo.gov has other related Amtrak docs.
From CATO Institute: (https://www.cato.org/commentar...-no-way-run-railroad)
"Since 1972 Amtrak has received more than $13 billion of federal subsidies. Twenty‐five years later, Amtrak appears no closer to financial independence than the day taxpayer assistance began. "
So while I appreciate Mannyrock's fervor, the reality is that the feds (i.e. you and me and everyone else here paying taxes) have been pumping tons of money into Amtrak for an ever degrading service that has never taken a step forward into solvency. For 13 billion (and that isnt including what the dollars are translated to 2021 amounts after inflation), I would expect a ride where the food isnt horrible, the seats are somewhat comfortable, and the trips don't include a dozen of stops over a short 120ish mile hike on the NE Corridor.
For sure, I am tired of paying for Amtrak subsidies and not seeing any fruits for my loots.
Cest la vie.
Erik,
Thanks for that excellent factual information!
Mannyrock
