Tons of people buy engines and don't open them for years. Those folks with the Mogul are going to be disappointed I would suspect.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Tons of people buy engines and don't open them for years. Those folks with the Mogul are going to be disappointed I would suspect.
Can you imagine? I would be absolutely livid. That reminds me … I have to get my new K4 and E6's a spin tonight.
Putnam Division posted:Oman posted:Sad, bad news. I got my Mogul back today. Lionel did not send it back to China, stating they received it after the window for repair in China had closed. The NC technician tried to improve the performance, but could not. Earlier this year (May), when I was following this forum, Lionel did not want us to send them. I checked the forum a few more times after that and there were more posts about parts not working, in other words Lionel still not ready. When did the initial call to send them in go out? All I can see now is a last call by Dave Olson 08/27. I missed it by one or two months, so I'm denied a repair for something that took Lionel 10 months to recognize and resolve. I registered my Mogul on the Lionel web site for warranty very early on. Lionel should have contacted all owners that had registered their Mogul. Lionel contacted dealers, but not owners!
Lionel...this is unacceptable.....do you hear me?
Peter
Peter,
You are quite right, it is unacceptable. But they don't hear me; I quit buying their stuff a while ago.
Know that Robert Osterhoff sells a DVD called Lionel Engineering Standards, from the postwar era. I'm sure nothing like that exists today and if it did it would be in Chinese. Even Right of Way, as small as it was, had blueprints detailing wheels, flanges and coupler standards in the 1990's.
Lou N
gunrunnerjohn posted:Tons of people buy engines and don't open them for years. Those folks with the Mogul are going to be disappointed I would suspect.
Probably true. But I think it was really noticeable using the legacy system at low speeds , really low say speed steps 25 and under. Running with TMCC and in Conventional it might be apparent as it was in the legacy mode. And if you like to run above speed step 25 you might not have noticed.
Strummer posted:..."Creating Memories That Last A Lifetime"...
Mark in Oregon
.......Lyin-el."
I think it’s clear the current management team at Lionel doesn’t know what they are doing, they need to be replaced.
TrainMan1225 posted:I really don’t like people that make a big deal out of nothing.
I have to marvel that you think this is nothing. 
TrainMan1225 posted:I really don’t like people that make a big deal out of nothing.
Seriously? You didn't shell out ~$800 for one of these lemons, therefore, you have no dog in this fight. Get real!
Your model trains are supposed to provide enjoyment. I find it aggravating and anything but enjoyable to have a poorly-running locomotive on my layouts - and when I do, I promptly fix it or send it for repair. If it is under warranty, I expect it to be repaired and returned to me within a month or so. Anything else amounts to an unsatisfactory customer experience. A Lionel B&M Mogul would have been perfect for my layout but I have not made the purchase. I have been watching these developments closely since last year because I wanted one of these models. From what is being discussed here now, I'm glad I did not spend at least $600 on a Lionel Mogul.
MELGAR
J Daddy posted:Norton posted:romiller49 posted:On the other hand, why are we not switching our dollars to MTH etc? There must be a reason.Many of us already have. I for one. We just don't make a big deal about it.
Pete
Will be hard to do since MTH will be looking for a new manufacturing site for their steam locomotives.
I missed this tidbit. Do you have a link to the information on the forum or online elsewhere?
When you spend hard earned money on a purchase you expect the product to be in perfect condition and to run properly. Lionel has lost my confidence.
TrainMan1225 posted:I wouldn't complain on the forum if my engine was jerky, I'd just enjoy it.
That's where we part company!
If a locomotive doesn't run properly, especially as bad as the Mogul I saw, I'd want it fixed! Since this sounded like a design issue with the drivetrain, it's not one that's easily fixed by the consumer. I like my slow speed performance, and when I pay for it, I expect to get it.
I suspect you're the type of consumer that Lionel "hoped" would buy these, just swallow the lousy performance and buy more stuff. Most of us aren't that type of consumers. 
TrainMan1225 posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:TrainMan1225 posted:I really don’t like people that make a big deal out of nothing.
I have to marvel that you think this is nothing.
I don't think the whole repair situation is nothing. I really hate how Lionel handled it, and they shouldn't have done their customers like that if they wanted to keep them. I just think the original problem at hand wasn't a big deal. I wouldn't complain on the forum if my engine was jerky, I'd just enjoy it. Plus, at this point, sending an engine back into Lionel at this point is a last resort for me.
TrainMan1225, out of curiosity how many engines have you shelled out 8 C-notes or more for? And you would except defective performance?
In fairness to all, Lionel did not handle this problem well. They did make warranty repair available as they were legally required to do, but the lack of clear direction from them to their customers on what to do was inexcusable.
Buyers expect and deserve quick response to product problems and reasonably fast action to fix things. Neither of those requirements was met in this instance.
I hope they learned a lasting lesson from this debacle and will perform better the next time something like this occurs.
Hello, part of the problem with this locomotive was that not every buyer had experienced the problem in the same way. The original call-back only resulted in a 15% return. I am assuming that this includes the dealer inventory. There were miscommunications that added confusion, When I received my locomotive, this discussion was starting on this forum so I decided to return it to Lionel for the repair without putting it on the track. When I contacted Lionel about the process, I had a problem in that, for an undefined reason, we were unable to communicate using email so that eventually, I telephoned Lionel and they used the post office to send me the RA.
I had another Lionel product that came to me at about the same time with a problem and Lionel suggested that I send that to them at the same time as the Mogul. Fedex delivered both products to Lionel and the second one has been fixed and returned to me. I am hopeful that Mogul is being or has been repaired in China. Patience is a virtue for which hopefully I shall be rewarded.
PRRronbh posted:TrainMan1225 posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:TrainMan1225 posted:I really don’t like people that make a big deal out of nothing.
I have to marvel that you think this is nothing.
I don't think the whole repair situation is nothing. I really hate how Lionel handled it, and they shouldn't have done their customers like that if they wanted to keep them. I just think the original problem at hand wasn't a big deal. I wouldn't complain on the forum if my engine was jerky, I'd just enjoy it. Plus, at this point, sending an engine back into Lionel at this point is a last resort for me.
TrainMan1225, out of curiosity how many engines have you shelled out 8 C-notes or more for? And you would except defective performance?
BINGO!
I was pretty vocal about my issues with this lemon - after 8 months, with no end in sight, I called up Lionel and demanded a refund. I got a check in the mail for what I paid for it. I was still not happy - I just really liked this little engine. Perfect for my small layout. I really just wanted it to run properly but, alas, that was not to be. I was really bummed about having to give it up but sanity prevailed!
I also agree Lionel handled this very, very poorly. If I didn't read the forum, I would've had no clue about the attempts to repair, etc. If one typed in the product number on the Lionel website, there was no notification on each product description of the issues or recall. Why not? Lionel, outside of this forum, made no apparent attempt to notify folks. I asked my LHS, where I bought the engine to begin with, and the owner said he never received any notification despite ordering a few for customers (he does not typically stock hi-end Lionel Legacy locos).
On the other hand, when MTH had the issue of the "flamming" smoking tank cars a few years ago, there was extensive notification on social media, emails, website, the forum, etc. I believe if you still type in the product number on their website, there is a big alert on each car's profile. That is the correct way to do it - not this "I heard there is a fix......." stuff.
As my first Legacy loco, it really put a sour taste in my mouth about how this was handled (or not...)
SJC posted:On the other hand, when MTH had the issue of the "flamming" smoking tank cars a few years ago, there was extensive notification on social media, emails, website, the forum, etc. I believe if you still type in the product number on their website, there is a big alert on each car's profile. That is the correct way to do it - not this "I heard there is a fix......." stuff.
Difference here is the tank car could burn your house down, a jerky locomotive poses no danger. Lionel should have made more of an attempt to get the word out, but I cn't tell them what to do. As for leaving a bad taste in my mouth, this locomotive no, but looking over the whole history I have with Lionel, it's mixed. My new Long Island 4-4-2 is going to have to go back. It isn't jerking, but it sure has a gallop, so much so it'll climb out of the track at speed. I'll check the traction tires one more time, but I haven't seen any reason for it yet. These two, plus other issues with new Lionel products I've had over the year, are part of the reason I'm building my layout with DCC. With DCC I can run any new MTH locomotive, as well as converting any older or electrically dead locomotive to DCC and being able to run them.
sinclair postedLionel should have made more of an attempt to get the word out, but I cn't tell them what to do.
Lionel and Lionel dealers continued to promote them and sell them long after the knew about the issues!
Ok, so to clear things up, the whole way Lionel handled the Mogul repair situation was beyond unacceptable. But I think part of the problem was that the product run was very inconsistent in terms of the jerkiness. I’ve seen some videos on YouTube of the Moguls, and some barely jerked at all, but others, well...
I was trying to say that some people make a big deal out of nothing, which is why Lionel made a recall in the first place. Other Lionel products that arrived broken, but easily fixable by the customer (the Moguls are not one of those), people still made a big deal and complained instead of using the time to fix the problem! I don’t like people like that...
But I guess I can’t express my opinions on this thread without people attacking me from every side.
TrainMan1225 posted:But I guess I can’t express my opinions on this thread without people attacking me from every side.
I don't see that at all. You expressed a single opinion that folks should just grin and bear it, I simply expressed my opinion that I thought you were wrong. I don't recall any attack, just a difference of opinion.
TrainMan1225 posted:I was trying to say that some people make a big deal out of nothing, which is why Lionel made a recall in the first place. Other Lionel products that arrived broken, but easily fixable by the customer (the Moguls are not one of those), people still made a big deal and complained instead of using the time to fix the problem! I don’t like people like that...
.....and I don't like spending hard earned money on stuff that is broken out of the box, regardless of how "easily fixable by the consumer" the problem may be. It is NOT acceptable! As far as I'm concerned, regardless of manufacturer, the complaint is warranted. NO customer should have to fix a product delivered new in the box. IMHO, the idea that anyone would think it is OK to get broken products is beyond me............
gunrunnerjohn posted:TrainMan1225 posted:But I guess I can’t express my opinions on this thread without people attacking me from every side.I don't see that at all. You expressed a single opinion that folks should just grin and bear it, I simply expressed my opinion that I thought you were wrong. I don't recall any attack, just a difference of opinion.
“Attack” was a stretch
Fix it out of the box???
Did it occur to you that the buyers are interested in having a product that they can have confidence in lasting for a few years? Every blue PE car in the set arrives broken and I am supposed to think I can repair them and the problem is over?
For that privilege we wait over a year and pay over $700?
Okay with your money maybe but it sure isn’t with ours.
I was in business for 39 years before selling at retirement. With this attitude, we would not have lasted six months and would not have deserved to.
Not trying to be ugly, just a difference in opinion when we have invested this amount of time and money.
I want to thank most of the OGR fellowship for supporting me. I will follow up with Lionel and ask for a refund.
As for those that think this is insignificant; did you buy a new car in the 70's?
Back then, we were one against them and now with forums like this we can voice a complaint together.
Bill Webb posted:Fix it out of the box???
As you probably know, I've had to fix plenty of stuff right out of the sealed box, and it's not something I look forward to! Sometimes I do it, but it's still not right! And, how about the person that doesn't have the ability to fix it?
TrainMan1225 posted:Ok, so to clear things up, the whole way Lionel handled the Mogul repair situation was beyond unacceptable. But I think part of the problem was that the product run was very inconsistent in terms of the jerkiness. I’ve seen some videos on YouTube of the Moguls, and some barely jerked at all, but others, well...
I was trying to say that some people make a big deal out of nothing, which is why Lionel made a recall in the first place. Other Lionel products that arrived broken, but easily fixable by the customer (the Moguls are not one of those), people still made a big deal and complained instead of using the time to fix the problem! I don’t like people like that...
But I guess I can’t express my opinions on this thread without people attacking me from every side.
Not at all
The problem first surfaced here on the Forum with report from one member. As I recall Lionel issued an RA immediately. There were additional reports from other Forum members.
Lionel did communicate here on the Forum as to the progress . Your observation about the inconsistencies in how the individual engines behaved is correct. And that is part of the difficulty in developing a fix. No two engines behaved alike. At one point a fix in the gearing was identified and parts ordered. It proved unsuccessful in the majority of the cases. My own experience was that there were updates on the forum from Lionel and if you spoke to them at York or at the warehouse events, they would brief you on where the project stood.
When the decision to recall was made, Lionel communicated the decision, the details and the procedure to its dealers who had sold the engines to its customers. I was advised of these details from my LHS where I purchased the engine and he is not a distributor. So there was outreach to their dealers. If an individual customer did not return the engine to Lionel it could be
1. Some owners did not keep up-to-date by not following or participating in the Forum.
2. The customer did not notice or object to the slow speed running characteristics exhibited. Running in conventional format you might not notice.
3.The Customer never took it out of the box. and ran it at all.
4.The dealer did not inform his customer of the recall.
Could lionel have handled it better? Perhaps , but the nature of the problem and the inconsistencies of how it was manifesting itself seemed to be quite a cjallenge here. I am not happy about not having my locomotive. BuI do think that the company gets good marks for outreach on this issue and implementing the fix plan that it did. I like all of mogul owners will be happy when its back on home rails so I can enjoy it.
1. Some owners did not keep up-to-date by not following or participating in the Forum.
So, everyone that buys a Lionel product should belong to the OGR forum? Are you serious?
3.The Customer never took it out of the box. and ran it at all.
Dave Olson stated that this was an upgrade available to anyone that wanted it. ANYONE.
4.The dealer did not inform his customer of the recall.
My dealer did not inform me and after I phoned him this weekend, he wasn't aware of the problem.
Jim R. posted:J Daddy posted:Norton posted:romiller49 posted:On the other hand, why are we not switching our dollars to MTH etc? There must be a reason.Many of us already have. I for one. We just don't make a big deal about it.
Pete
Will be hard to do since MTH will be looking for a new manufacturing site for their steam locomotives.
I missed this tidbit. Do you have a link to the information on the forum or online elsewhere?
Let me know what you find out, Jim. I've heard no such thing from anyone I know.
Lou N
As I've posted several times on this subject, I had wanted to buy a Lionel B&M Mogul but, so far, have not, due to the issues raised on this Forum. At this point, I just want to express my hope that when all is said and done, there will be a thread on this Forum in which those who purchased tell us how it all turned out.
MELGAR
Lou N posted:Putnam Division posted:Oman posted:Sad, bad news. I got my Mogul back today. Lionel did not send it back to China, stating they received it after the window for repair in China had closed. The NC technician tried to improve the performance, but could not. Earlier this year (May), when I was following this forum, Lionel did not want us to send them. I checked the forum a few more times after that and there were more posts about parts not working, in other words Lionel still not ready. When did the initial call to send them in go out? All I can see now is a last call by Dave Olson 08/27. I missed it by one or two months, so I'm denied a repair for something that took Lionel 10 months to recognize and resolve. I registered my Mogul on the Lionel web site for warranty very early on. Lionel should have contacted all owners that had registered their Mogul. Lionel contacted dealers, but not owners!
Lionel...this is unacceptable.....do you hear me?
Peter
Peter,
You are quite right, it is unacceptable. But they don't hear me; I quit buying their stuff a while ago.
Know that Robert Osterhoff sells a DVD called Lionel Engineering Standards, from the postwar era. I'm sure nothing like that exists today and if it did it would be in Chinese. Even Right of Way, as small as it was, had blueprints detailing wheels, flanges and coupler standards in the 1990's.
Lou N
One more thought Peter....
Many of the folks that made Lionel what it was are alive and well, in their 90's and living in New Jersey. Wouldn't it be amazing to put together a team of folks that could resurrect Lionel???? Wouldn't you like to see them look around the room at Lionel and just say "your fired!".
When I was a kid of 10 I would write Lionel and get answers to my questions. The chief engineer at the time was Charlie Montagna. He's still around. We still talk. As a matter of fact, we had a facetime conversation a few weeks ago. My iPhone is a wonderful thing.
Take a look at Right of Way who brought you brass twin motored articulateds that would negotiate 042 curves and had digital sound. Plus the transformer and signals. There were three engineers there at its height. Where are the innovators now?
Lou N
Oman posted:1. Some owners did not keep up-to-date by not following or participating in the Forum.
So, everyone that buys a Lionel product should belong to the OGR forum? Are you serious?
3.The Customer never took it out of the box. and ran it at all.
Dave Olson stated that this was an upgrade available to anyone that wanted it. ANYONE.
4.The dealer did not inform his customer of the recall.
My dealer did not inform me and after I phoned him this weekend, he wasn't aware of the problem.
If an owner is not aware of the forum or did not participate in it, that owner may not have been aware of the problem. It was discussed extensively here.
You are correct about the offer, but if an owner never ran the engine, he might not be aware there was a problem in the first place.
Several dealers in my area were aware of the letter. I can speak with knowledge about my dealers awareness of the recall.
In any event I do hope that Lionel does give you a refund for your locomotive.
Are the " return for repair " Moguls now finished, if so, anyone get their steamer back.
All the time and money they spent on these they could have made new ones.
I'm wondering why folks enamored with Lionel can so easily dismiss the proper way a company with a serious product defect should handle the situation? A defect so extensive it affected 100% of production. It involved the disassembly of nearly the entire engine and a shop wait time well over one year. And worse, even though 100% of production WAS defective only 12% were repaired... IMO, the engine was worthless when it arrived, should have been recalled, money refunded. That 12% that were repaired are still near worthless today in its hopefully reconditioned state.
BTW, thank goodness we have this OGR forum.. I read about the Mogul issue the day before I was to pick mine up. I cancelled it and my LHS returned the engine back to Lionel...
Jim 1939 posted:All the time and money they spent on these they could have made new ones.
Perhaps Lionel is doing just that in that. Essentially it may be a rebuild of the mechanism. who knows maybe it will come back with a swinging bell. They are to be individually tested before they are returned and I did ask about a new warranty.
JC642 posted:I'm wondering why folks enamored with Lionel can so easily dismiss the proper way a company with a serious product defect should handle the situation? A defect so extensive it affected 100% of production. It involved the disassembly of nearly the entire engine and a shop wait time well over one year. And worse, even though 100% of production WAS defective only 12% were repaired... IMO, the engine was worthless when it arrived, should have been recalled, money refunded. That 12% that were repaired are still near worthless today in its hopefully reconditioned state.
BTW, thank goodness we have this OGR forum.. I read about the Mogul issue the day before I was to pick mine up. I cancelled it and my LHS returned the engine back to Lionel...
not limited to Lionel. My Atlas California Zephyr cars have sagging couplers and parts fall off them aas they run. I had to return a new Williams 44 tonner because the Motor would not reverse direction. My MTH R-36 and MU sets went back to MTH several times to correct DCS issues. The R-36 was at MTH for over a year before it was almost fixed. It still has a DCS issue that impacts the direction reverse which MTH was not able to fix. I have had a railking RS-3 that arrived with a dead short and another RS-3 that loads itself into DCS as a New York Central engine even though it is a Seaboard road name. At least it works.
Unfortunately, the new stuff seems to have more quality issues these days.
Ya think???
Personally, I think by continually adding new electronic/computer features to their locos, Lionel has brought these performance problems on themselves.
The more nifty new gadgets they include, the more there is to go wrong.
At this point, I would suggest that Lionel perfect the features it already offers to make them pretty bullet-proof before they introduce any more enhancements.
Dave Warburton posted:Personally, I think by continually adding new electronic/computer features to their locos, Lionel has brought these performance problems on themselves.
While Lionel never came out directly and said it. I don't believe this was an "electronics issue".
This seemed more like and incorrectly manufactured gearbox. Lionel should have been able to fix electronics problems "in house". They had to send them away to get new gear assemblies made.
Many of the legacy gearboxes have 3 gears in the not including the worm on the motor shaft. Theres a secondary gear that rides on a second shaft that has separate bushings in the chassis above the driven axle.
While I'm sure this gearbox is key to the slow speed performance, there lots of opportunity for things to go wrong if the manufacture or assmbly are done incorrect.
