At the beginning in Winston-Salem NC

If you haven't yet, I would go by and talk with Jeff at the Train Loft on Country Club Road.  He has the only O scale train store in that part of NC that I am ware of.

http://www.trainloft.com/

Jan

I'm not sure that I understand your blueprint.  If the longest dimension you have for any possible configuration is 15'5" you should probably plan for a minimum curve of O42.  You can still build a highly detailed layout, but you'll have to be a little selective about what you plan to run. 

What's that long rectangle that extends to the left in the first plan drawing?  Could you add a one-story 20' extension onto the building?  Length is more important than width, as long as it's 8 to 10 feet wide it would tremendously expand your options.  My $.02.

You are more limited on the bottom floor due to access to the door and the stairs.   Your best bet may be an "L" shaped layout on the top floor with the "L" extended over half of the stair railing.  Will the space be insulated and air conditioned?  The top floor may be unbearable in the summer (yeah, I know, I'm stating the obvious).  Also consider what type of track you will use.   Solid rail track such as Atlas or MTH will expand with temperature changes and introduce kinks at your curves.   There are techniques using sliding rail joiners to accommodate the expansion.  Gargraves, Fastrack, or traditional tinplate track will give less problems.

I have family in W-S, so I usually stop by The Train Loft when I visit.  It is a nice train shop. Usually over-stuffed with merchandise.  The owner could put you in touch with other modelers who can lend you a hand.   Who doesn't like to build a layout?!!

Bob

I live in W-S.  I am also a new modeler.  I have a 8x10" layout in the works and use  72" curves on my outer loop.  I like big steam power.  54" curves on inner loop. I am out of town my e-mail is melvin3932@gmail.com.  When I return it would be nice to meet another 3 railer.  The Train loft is a good store, lots of rolling stock and motive power.  Jeff is most helpful.

@Ted S posted:

I'm not sure that I understand your blueprint.  If the longest dimension you have for any possible configuration is 15'5" you should probably plan for a minimum curve of O42.  You can still build a highly detailed layout, but you'll have to be a little selective about what you plan to run. 

What's that long rectangle that extends to the left in the first plan drawing?  Could you add a one-story 20' extension onto the building?  Length is more important than width, as long as it's 8 to 10 feet wide it would tremendously expand your options.  My $.02.

The top portion shows the outside of the barn BUT (the confusing part) the gravel driveway in front of it... not sure why I added that part... so disregard the large rectangle on the left..

@RRDOC posted:

You are more limited on the bottom floor due to access to the door and the stairs.   Your best bet may be an "L" shaped layout on the top floor with the "L" extended over half of the stair railing.  Will the space be insulated and air conditioned?  The top floor may be unbearable in the summer (yeah, I know, I'm stating the obvious).  Also consider what type of track you will use.   Solid rail track such as Atlas or MTH will expand with temperature changes and introduce kinks at your curves.   There are techniques using sliding rail joiners to accommodate the expansion.  Gargraves, Fastrack, or traditional tinplate track will give less problems.

I have family in W-S, so I usually stop by The Train Loft when I visit.  It is a nice train shop. Usually over-stuffed with merchandise.  The owner could put you in touch with other modelers who can lend you a hand.   Who doesn't like to build a layout?!!

Bob

Thanks for the feedback! If you look at the outside shot of the barn, there use to be a door on the side - there use to be an different structure in the area and a concrete slab is on that side. My thought is to seal in the double door and re-add the single door that use to be there. That way the entrance also corresponds to the stairs and does not take up additional space. The framework is already built inside for a door there so most of the work is already done.

As for track, I have used GG in the past, and I really enjoyed their flextrack. I am still at the early stages of this so I have a lot of time to really think about track

I want to insulate the top floor as well and add some sort of AC unit on the top and bottom. Small window units of some sort "should" be enough to handle the heat - but it's an open discussion. With the extreme flux in heat and cold, I know I will need to really focus on joints and make sure it is safe.

@Melvin P posted:

I live in W-S.  I am also a new modeler.  I have a 8x10" layout in the works and use  72" curves on my outer loop.  I like big steam power.  54" curves on inner loop. I am out of town my e-mail is melvin3932@gmail.com.  When I return it would be nice to meet another 3 railer.  The Train loft is a good store, lots of rolling stock and motive power.  Jeff is most helpful.

 

AWESOME!! Another local! I will email you to make a solid connection and we can go from there. Thanks!

In the long run I think you will be happier avoiding window units.  I installed a mini split system in the garage and if you buy a unit with precharged refrigerant lines it is really not that hard.  The first time I had a HVAC company install the mini split and the labor was more than the system.  Granted their installation looked a little cleaner than mine, ok a lot but for a garage it was about function.  Good luck with the project.  The possibilities with that barn look great.

Nathan, Now I understand the building and proposed changes.  I see the framed section at the bottom of the stairs which would be great for access to the building.  Sealing off the double doors would be great!  If you put the layout in the lower level, what would you use the upper level for?  Store materials, boxes, and supplies?  I'm sorry I don't live in your area, but my 8 years living in Central Virginia showed me how hot and humid it can get for a native Pennsylvanian.  On the other hand, I don't think you mentioned heat for the winter.  I don't see any heaters in the photographs.  I'm afraid I don't have any experience outfitting an outbuilding for a layout.  Mine have always been in a spare room or basement.

I almost forgot.  Your previous layout must have been great looking based on the photograph you posted.  I wish you well and will keep an eye on your progress.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Nathan, Now I understand the building and proposed changes.  I see the framed section at the bottom of the stairs which would be great for access to the building.  Sealing off the double doors would be great!  If you put the layout in the lower level, what would you use the upper level for?  Store materials, boxes, and supplies?  I'm sorry I don't live in your area, but my 8 years living in Central Virginia showed me how hot and humid it can get for a native Pennsylvanian.  On the other hand, I don't think you mentioned heat for the winter.  I don't see any heaters in the photographs.  I'm afraid I don't have any experience outfitting an outbuilding for a layout.  Mine have always been in a spare room or basement.

I almost forgot.  Your previous layout must have been great looking based on the photograph you posted.  I wish you well and will keep an eye on your progress.

Honestly... and I "might" be crazy for thinking this... but I'm dreaming of making the bottom floor on LARGE helix with a town in the center, possible sidings going up the sides of the room but most of the room wrapped in a mountain scape and a small town in the center. Then having the train route cut through the floor of the second floor to a second town upstairs with additional industries. Maybe a PTP concept to allow industries to send equipment, supplies to one another... it's a lofty concept, but since the walls are open, I could spend the next 6-8 months coming up with a concept that would work for this... Winston is based at the beginning of the foothills of the Appalachian mountains and we live 20 minutes from Andy Griffith land (Mt. Pilot) - so the hilly area is working it's way into my concepts.

Heat/AC both need to be controlled in order to have any sort of long-term concepts built, so I am looking at all methods of permeant solutions. My first goal would be to insulate both levels of the building.

Thank you for your kind words on my previous layout! I am one who LOVES extreme detail so my goal is to go in that direction again. In that one image, the mountain, tree, and house are all custom builds. Track is GG and figures are Scenic Express. I currently have the Chessie in front of me on my office desk!

I live in W-S too and would be glad to share some contacts with you. Just get in touch though my Email.

Joe

@Southern Crescent 2 posted:

I live in W-S too and would be glad to share some contacts with you. Just get in touch though my Email.

Joe

 

Email Sent!

Nathan, I think the helix concept up to the second floor would be absolutely fantastic!  I always liked the floor to ceiling mountain layout concept that I often saw Usually in HO in Model Railroader magazine  in the late ‘60s and ‘70s.  It is “lofty” but certainly doable!  

I was down through your area once driving from Western Pennsylvania to Raleigh.  I went past Pilot Mountain. 

You're not crazy, I actually like your idea.  One caveat- your loco motors will get a real workout climbing what's probably ten feet of vertical elevation while in the helix.

I've messed with designing helixes in SCARM.  I would suggest that you allow at least 6 1/2" height difference between the railheads of successive turns.  Remember you have to allow for the thickness of sub-roadbed supporting the track and transitions back to level at the top and bottom.  Using O72 curves would give you a 2.9% grade which isn't excessively steep.  But... you'll need eighteen (18!) full circles of track to move between floors.  The continuous grade will be 360 feet long.  At normal track speed it would take about 6 minutes to make the climb!!

If the loco is geared properly with a high-quality motor, no problem.  But if the loco is geared tall as with most diesels, the speed control will be working very hard to keep a long train moving.  This could be considered abuse, and the motor may well overheat before the 6 minutes are up. 

Also, if you bury the helix inside of a floor-to-ceiling mountain ("Close Encounters" style), it will be out of sight for five to six minutes.  You should probably plan on lighting, cameras, and some kind of block system with track occupancy detection to make sure it's still moving as intended.  If you're really brave you could probably have 3 or 4 trains inside the helix at once!  Heck, I would go out of my way just to see something like this in person!  But the accepted strategy, especially if there's already a concrete slab, would be to build an extension onto your barn, and just keep the layout on the ground floor.  Interesting discussion!

@Ted S posted:

You're not crazy, I actually like your idea.  One caveat- your loco motors will get a real workout climbing what's probably ten feet of vertical elevation while in the helix.

I've messed with designing helixes in SCARM.  I would suggest that you allow at least 6 1/2" height difference between the railheads of successive turns.  Remember you have to allow for the thickness of sub-roadbed supporting the track and transitions back to level at the top and bottom.  Using O72 curves would give you a 2.9% grade which isn't excessively steep.  But... you'll need eighteen (18!) full circles of track to move between floors.  The continuous grade will be 360 feet long.  At normal track speed it would take about 6 minutes to make the climb!!

If the loco is geared properly with a high-quality motor, no problem.  But if the loco is geared tall as with most diesels, the speed control will be working very hard to keep a long train moving.  This could be considered abuse, and the motor may well overheat before the 6 minutes are up. 

Also, if you bury the helix inside of a floor-to-ceiling mountain ("Close Encounters" style), it will be out of sight for five to six minutes.  You should probably plan on lighting, cameras, and some kind of block system with track occupancy detection to make sure it's still moving as intended.  If you're really brave you could probably have 3 or 4 trains inside the helix at once!  Heck, I would go out of my way just to see something like this in person!  But the accepted strategy, especially if there's already a concrete slab, would be to build an extension onto your barn, and just keep the layout on the ground floor.  Interesting discussion!

Would the number of loops change depending on the size of the room? My thought is to have the entire downstairs be the helix. So a town in the center and then the train route would travel up the walls. Would that still require 18 full circles?

Nathan, I was thinking the same as you.  The helix goes around and around the room.  I have read articles on modelers doing this in HO only going 2 or three levels.  While their layouts were in larger basements, I would think it would only need a few laps before it gets to the ceiling.  Of course some measurements and calculations would be needed.  I think it is a great concept!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Nathan, I was thinking the same as you.  The helix goes around and around the room.  I have read articles on modelers doing this in HO only going 2 or three levels.  While their layouts were in larger basements, I would think it would only need a few laps before it gets to the ceiling.  Of course some measurements and calculations would be needed.  I think it is a great concept!!

I agree! I work on MACs so I will be using Railroad Modeller Pro to build the layout in the coming months. This is the plan I plan to begin developing. And even though the concept is floor to ceiling, I am thinking of having the trains at table top to start, so that would cut out a few feet in the climb.

Also, my older son and I were in the barn the other day and we were discussing some options. I did see some potentially solid locations for large sidings and areas for the train to have active stops on the way up the helix. And once on the second floor, in addition to the town up there, the goal is to have a number of stops on the route.

If you figure 9 feet between table tops and a around the room helix whose circumference would be about 60 feet a 5% grade would require 3 complete loops.  Quite doable with today's traction tire equipped locomotives.

Jan

A helix around the walls is sometimes called a "nolix."  Going around the walls would take fewer loops, because each "loop" is a much greater distance.  The total linear distance and elevation change would be the same, so you would still be climbing a steep grade for a long time.  You would just be using more straight track, and fewer curves.

Personally I think the dedicated helix is a better approach.  If you go around the walls, I would suggest at least 24" between levels on the same wall to allow for visual separation of the scenery, sky boards, etc.  The perimeter of your layout area in extreme is about 50 feet (600 inches).  To get 24" of separation would require an even steeper 4% grade.  This would reduce the amount of track used slightly but it would lead to operational problems.  Going back to the original 2.9% grade would get you about 17" between levels.  That's too cramped to really focus on anything but the train itself.  Remember, you have to allow for the thickness of the platform and probably some bracing like 1x4s.

The other problem is, you can forget about any kind of sidings, yards, etc., because the whole thing is on a slope!  I've seen tricks using a lever-and-pin arrangement where something pops up out of the track to prevent standing freight cars from rolling away.  But towns and industries set on a 3% slope will look odd.  Also forget about having one wall level with slopes on the other three.  The grade would have to be even steeper because now it's even shorter, and you have to allow linear distance to transition from graded to level track (although the flat sections might give your motors a chance to cool off a little.)

The laws of physics place a hard limit on what you'll be able to do vertically in the space you have.

Ted, you have good points.  I had envisioned something different, which may not be practical either.  I remember seeing a lot of articles in Model Railroader in the '70s where modelers had built floor to ceiling mountains, with the lowest track at whatever the modeler's base tabletop level was, then circling up and up the same mountain with no breaks for valances, etc.  Yes room lighting must be bright and targeted to illumine an 8-foot mountainside.  John Allen may have been the first ot do it, and certainly was the most famous.  There would be tracks separated by a foot or a foot and a half up the mountain.  To break the monotony, tunnels, mines, etc would be at various points.  Sidings could take off from the mainline and be level, of course these would be stub ended.  I may have misinterpreted Nathan's and his son's thinking.

Nathan, the above would work best if it was double tracked.  It could be there would be a turning loop at the top and bottom so it is one continuous run, but be double tracked most of the way.

Your layout  plans will undergo too many changes to keep track of. Initially, I would focus on the infrastructure of “The Train Barn”. Give consideration to the location of electrical needs for wall outlets and/or floor outlets; lighting on the walls or ceiling; plumbing needs; and, importantly, the HVAC. I highly recommend mini splits. You should inquire about adding something to attend to humidity levels so it’s automatically adjusted. Also, think about an automatic generator; should power be lost and you’re not home for several days.

It’s fun working with a blank canvas.

I was curious about whether I could (or should!) build a "multi-deck" layout in my own 11 x 18 train room.  So I evaluated a dedicated helix to change levels vs. climbing around the walls.  I decided that a dedicated helix was hands-down the better solution.  It achieved the desired height with an easier grade, and a fairly compact footprint.  I don't think it would be terribly difficult to build using threaded rod for supports . 

But I also concluded that my room is pretty small.  I don't think I want to invest the 5' x 9 1/2' that I need for the helix.  I would rather have more platform area and walking space in the room.  If I were determined to do a multi-deck layout, I think I would punch two holes in the wall and put the helix in the adjacent garage.  That would let me have two level decks all the way around the room.  The train would go through the wall in one corner, and come back into the room two feet higher on the upper level.

Here's a 3D image from SCARM showing the helix in the room, and the ramp track climbing around the walls.  If I were going to build this, I would probably hide the helix inside a mountain, or enclose it with plywood or masonite.  In this example the helix is 3 1/2 loops at 7" each, and the difference between levels is 24".

The deal-breaker for me was not having any level area for towns, yards, sidings, etc., around the walls.  In your case, if you'll have room for those on a flat upper or lower level, you might be OK with the wall track being on a steady slope with perhaps only a backdrop or building flats for scenery, and less than 18" between levels.  Sharing for your consideration.

@nlawson posted:

Hello all,

Long time forum stalker - just now beginning a new railroad empire! We have recently purchased and moved into a new home in Winston-Salem, NC and I have an entire large 2-story shed we call "The Barn" that my wife and I have designated for trains! This will be a S-L-O-W process and I am at the beginning stages - I doubt I will actually do anything this year other than dream, prep, and plan. The Barn has a lot of internal work that needs to be done (see pics) - and I want to do it RIGHT! So here are my questions:

1) Is there anyone LOCAL that could offer tips? Maybe drop by and help me dream this up? Any local O Gauge groups to get connected with???

2) Any ideas from others who have a similar structure?

3) Any thoughts on what to do and what to watch out for?

Honestly in many ways - I have a blank canvas! Super excited to get it started. I am a BIG fan of 3-rail scale modelling (as seen in the one pic from my former layout) so that is the direction I would want to take my new layout. I will probably cross post this in the 3 rail scale forum as well.

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks.

Nathan

Hello @nlawson,

Mr. Jeff Konczal, owner of the Train Loft in Winston-Salem, is someone you could consult. You could drop by his store and he can really help you. An excellent O-gauge group to get connected with (and maybe join) is the Yadkin & Catawba Model Railroad Club. Even better, Mr. Konczal is the club president. So, he would be a perfect person to talk to - he'll give you great ideas!

Looks like a nice space to get creative in.   But, I lived in W/S for 7 years and we got some tornadic activity from time to time, so I would really like to have the building well-anchored before I got busy inside.  Is it on a foundation ?  My 2 cents .

Rich