Attitudes towards occupational hazards in railroading and elsewhere

Asbestos?

Just my opinion, but I'll bet there is a heck of a lot more danger to our lungs caused by the air pollution at major air ports, what with the combination of Jet exhaust, diesel exhaust and auto exhaust.

I know we have all kinds of possible exposure hazards in the real world, but if you will stop and think for a moment about a guy who was a conductor in a caboose for decades, tailing along behind trains weighing thousands of pounds, wheels grinding on rails of winding mountain railroads, particles of metal swirling in the airstream of a train, caboose on the end of the train (in the old days) ... and my retired conductor friend has Parkinsons. And a friend of a friend who did welding died of Parkinsons, there are some known connections there. So I really don't appreciate a knee-jerk dismissal of the subject. I was hoping for some thoughtful and intelligent feedback.

I assume you are talking about wheel and rail wear. Here is the MSDS for ferrous metals.

 

Pete

Thank You Pete, that's relevant. I'm wondering if there are any former caboose crew people out there who noticed significant metallic dust in the air while a train is barrelling along. 

 

Material Safety Data Sheet

Iron Metal MSDS

Section 3: Hazards Identification

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Potential Chronic Health Effects:

CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.

MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.

TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.

DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance may be toxic to liver, cardiovascular system, upper respiratory tract, pancreas. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.

 

 

My thoughts are that good wheel and rail profiles would minimize wear and be better for everything.

 

One shortline railroad manager told me they took out all their rail curve lubricators because of the maintenance on them. But I wondered if they had really looked at the larger picture of long-term rail and wheel wear, which is difficult to quantify.

The environmental health hazard in the caboose was from the old style composition brake shoes which contained both asbestos and lead.  As I recall the shoe composition was changed in the late 1970s.  I would think the iron particles coming off the rail and wheels may be too large to be much of a breathing hazard.

David, the old brake shoes were cast, the newer replacements are composition. Cast brake shoes could do more thermal damage to wheels, leading to wheel fractures and derailments. You're right about brake shoe smoke also being a possible hazard to crews, fortunately dynamic braking has reduced the use of tread braking. Here in Oregon we have a mainline grade averaging about 1.7% for over 40 miles in the Cascades.

I was referring to composition brake shoes only, not iron shoes.  The original composition brake shoes contained lead and asbestos, as did automotive brake shoes.  The industry, primarily Railroad Friction Product (WABCO), redesigned the composition shoes to get the lead and asbestos out.  It was as much a manufacturing problem as it was a potential problem for the railroads.  

 

Reliable dynamic brakes really did clean up braking.  Trains coming down a grade use to get lost in the smoke.  Some of that has to do with the elimination of rag boxes, which coated the wheel plates with oil.

Everything thing in excess, even water is no good for You. So why worry about it. 

If you had read the entire story above you might have noticed I'm talking about railroaders stricken with Parkinsons and Alzheimers. I think it's worth trying to understand whether occupational conditions might be a contributing factor. It's very sad to see friends wasting away from incurable illnesses.

On a distantly related note, I wonder what new diseases my generation will be stricken with in our old age from holding a microwave transmitter against our heads for our whole lives.

 

noticed significant metallic dust in the air while a train is barrelling along. 

NOT on a level route but at Horseshoecurve...... A different story.

BTW, ABC News had a segment on earphones, esp those earbuds on how they are damaging eardrums by the time one is 30-40 yrs old. I think that is more significant than brakeshoe dust or metalic dust that is not a constant occurance

Valid points about cell phones and earphones. My concern about metallic dust from trains is not for occasional exposure to the public, but whether repeated long-term exposure might have affected caboose crews in particular. I had a retired railroad conductor friend with Parkinsons. A friend of a friend who did welding died of Parkinsons and manganese fumes are a known factor there.

 

I've modified the topic heading to mention caboose crews.

You should have walked around U.S. Steel South Works back in the day.  Wheel and brake shoe dust is nothing by comparison.  Even in the 1980's it could get pretty nasty in the mills and furnace areas.

 

Unless we want to live in a hermetically sealed bubble all our lives, we all are being exposed to all sorts of nastiness in our surroundings and we are all affected in some way or other. 

 

Unfortunately, some folks are affected more than others.

 

Rusty

 

Very true Rusty. Today's environments are generally cleaner and healthier for most people. But I suspect the next generation will realize that their parents were ignorant of hazards from some commonly accepted conditions. The same way that cigarette smoking was regarded 50-60 years ago, compared to today.

 

Some model railroaders in the 1950's thought it was a good idea to use asbestos in scenery modelling.

You may want to consider looking at other industries too. What you are talking about is chronic exposure to fine metal powders. Anyone who works in a machine shop is exposed to the same metals. Paints use powdered metals and so does any shop that mixes/pours Fiberglas and resin mixtures.

Good points Flash. I recall a story about a model railroader who did custom painting, and even with a paint booth and recommended ventilation, he ended up with chronic illness from inhalation of hazardous substances.

 

People who value their health should make an effort to be aware of real hazards and take suitable precautions. Some folks become complacent about conditions until serious problems develop. The older I get, the more people I see dying or becoming chronically ill.

Class action suit, anyone?

 

EdKing

yep bigtime! Say asbestos exposure from break dust from the freight cars  ring a bell anyone! Feel bad for the caboose crew and conducter..Our time in this earth is short..make your life count and be right with the big guy upstairs..

Any of you guys ridden a long heavy fast freight train towards the back end and seen all the glitter in the air? Ever notice how wheels and rails wear, where does that go? Ever ridden a freight car that had worn wheels, the lateral action would slam back and forth violently on tangent but smooth out on a curve? Maybe real-world track-train dynamics are too difficult a subject here.

 

Have you had any friends or relatives dying of Parkinsons or Alzheimers or cancer and wanted to try to understand what might have caused it? Why did my brother die of cancer at age 25, did it have anything to do with his visit to Tahiti after the French atmospheric nuclear tests? My elderly train buddy has bone cancer, he witnessed H-bomb tests in the Pacific in 1958. He has been granted "atomic veteran" status.

 

But ignorance is bliss for some folks.

 

There are too many variables to claim that a chronic or acute exposure to something will cause a disease and death in a person. It all depends on your genetics. Two people could be given the exact same dose of radiation under the exact same conditions. One may die of cancer in 10 years, the other will live to be 90 and cancer free. In the hazmat world, toxicity is measured by LD-50. That is Lethal Dose for 50 percent of the population. You could have 100 people exposed to a toxic substance and about 50 of them will die. Nobody knows exactly what makes one person more resilient over another. During the time of the Black Plague, a lot of people were exposed and died. Some were exposed, got sick and survived. And still some were exposed and didn't show any symptoms. Why? Personally, I believe Parkinson's and Alzheimer's to be more genetic diseases than anything else but still too little is known about them to be sure.

>>I've modified the topic heading to mention caboose crews.

 

What's a caboose?

Thanks Flash, those are very thoughtful and pertinent observations.

 

I used to think that some of these diseases were mostly related to age and heredity, but actually there are additional factors which just aren't completely understood. Hazardous factors are so difficult to quantify because there are so many environmental and genetic variables between people.

It is disconcerting that everyday experiences can hide the long term effects of exposure to materials not currently considered to be toxins. I know that exposure has a lot of variables involved that lead to a tipping point to a fatal condition and I think that being our own best advocate is helpful. I have been fighting off cancer for over a year and was originally diagnosed twice as having a simple infection which I knew was not so in my gut. Where did it come from? Heaven knows..and when you are faced with this situation, it honestly becomes a moot personal point of why and where it happened but..I think your post brings up an excellent point..to question everything..even the "experts" Taking in metals in air borne particulate form in any manner cannot be anything other than harmful as a matter of common sense when it comes to mucus membranes..There was a big deal fairly recently about zinc in various supposedly benign forms..

How do you guys get up in the morning? You are worrying about things that you have very little control of.  

 

When I was in the military I use to take down pipes that were covered in asbestos, it was done with no protection at all. The asbestos would rain down like snow. Do I worry about it? NO.  It was my job and I did it well. I also worked on radar towers. Geez if I were like you guys I would be worrying all the time. Life is too short to worry about stuff that may hurt you and you can't control. You guys worry, I'm going to run some trains and smell the smoke that may kill me in the next 50 years.    

So, when are you guys filing suit?

 

I worked in a large railroad boiler shop years ago.  Can I get in on the goodies?

 

If you're not filing suit, this is just a mutual commiseration thread, and therefore pointless.

 

EdKing

Birth is the leading cause of sickness and death...

 

Rusty

So you last three guys are belittling the problems of people with serious conditions like cancer, Parkinsons, Alzheimers. Have you spent any time with people in those conditions? Some of us have friends and relatives who have personally suffered through these conditions and died from them. Others here are experiencing these conditions themselves.

 

Mr King, this is not about organizing a class action lawsuit. I would have nothing to gain from that personally and I personally despise the lawsuit mentality. This is about wanting to understand why bad things happen to good people. In the case of my elderly train buddy, it is accepted that witnessing H-bomb tests in 1958 probably contributed to his current conditions with bone cancer. A friend of a friend who died of Parkinsons used to weld, and manganese fumes are a definitely suspect factor. My brother died of cancer at age 25 and I've spent decades wondering why that had to happen, and if there were avoidable factors that might have contributed to his early death. I started this thread concerning a railroader friend with Parkinsons who I have seen in an agonizing decline for many years.

 

So for the people who want to make flip remarks about a serious subject, may I suggest that you show a bit more respect for a serious topic, and move on if you do not have anything appropriate to contribute. It's also evident that some people will respond to these topics without reading the full context of the preceeding material.

I worry more about Rich Melvin and his head end crew as 765 burns coal and that process emits Sulfur & Nitrogen Dioxides, Particulate Matter, Mercury, Lead & Cadium. Not to mention Heavy Metals & Traces of Uranium. Hydrocarbons, Volatile Organic Compounds & Arsenic is also drifting thru the cab

 

OMG Rich you better park that thing!!...And let me run it

 

Think I'll take me a nice jog alongside the highway and breathe in all the noxious exhaust fumes from both gas & diesel engines...not to mention the contrails from the jets high above.

People with brains will calculate the risks according to available information, take suitable precautions and act accordingly. To joke about deliberately exposing yourself to known carcinogens is one way to work on a Darwin Award. You wouldn't care if your children chain-smoke cigarettes?

 

The use of asbestos lagging in steam locomotives has been discontinued. With today's knowledge base, if you had a choice, would you choose to have traditional asbestos lagging for the sake of nostalgia? With all the vibration and jolting working it loose during operation?

Ace, I think you're blowing things a little out of proportion. Someone in a sealed caboose probably has so low an exposure to the metals you're referring to, that it cannot in any way be compared to "chain smoking children," and such a comparison is silly on its face. And since there's no known connection to steel dust causing Alzheimers (or any other disease I'm aware of), you might just as easily make the connection that an overexposure to flourescent lighting or "Pawn Stars" or really hot hot sauce may have the same effect.

 

I'm sorry that your friends are dead and/or dying because of these diseases...but many more people have the same diseases who weren't exposed to one grain of metal dust.

The most logical post in this whole darned thread!!!

 

When I started my education geared toward a career in the railroad motive power industry, I never thought about "job hazards". I wanted to be HAPPY doing what I loved, and even getting well paid for it to boot. I've worked my entire life in the railroad motive power industry, both diesel & steam, I enjoy Maker's Mark and English beer, and sooner or later I'm going to die of SOMETHING. That's just the way it is.

 

One government agency that has helped workplace safety since it's creation is OSHA. Enforcement of mask use and breathing apparatus is the issue. If an employer can avoid the expense, they will. The FE allowable exposure is high compared to others. But a career of exposure cannot be good.

Here is a study on metallic exposure. This chart is excerpted:

Table 1 Air Contaminants - OSHA Permissible Exposure Limits*
		Transitional PEL		---Final Rule PEL---
Element	Substance Exposed to	----(mg/m3)----		----(mg/m3)----
		TWA	CEILING	TWA	STEL	CEILING
Ag	Metal and soluble cmpds (as Ag)	0.01		0.01
Al	Soluble salts (as Al)	---		2
	Pyro powders	---		5
Ba	Soluble compounds (as Ba)	0.5		0.5
Bi	Bismuth telluride (Se doped)**	---		5
Ca	Calcium oxide	5		5
	Calcium cyanamide	---		0.5
Cd	Fume	0.1	0.3	0.1		0.3
	Dust	0.2	0.6	0.2		0.6
Co	Metal dust and fume (as Co)	0.1		0.05
	Cobalt Carbonyl or hydrocarbonyl (as Co)	---		0.1
Cr	Cr (II or III) compounds (as Cr)	0.5		0.5
	Cr metal (as Cr)	1		1
Cs	Cesium hydroxide	---		2
Cu	Fumes (as Cu)	0.1		0.1
	Dusts and mists (as Cu)	1		1
Fe	Dicyclopentadienyl iron
	Total dust	15		10
	Iron oxide fume (as Fe2O3)	10		10
	Iron salts (soluble) (as Fe)	1
Hf	Hafnium	0.5		0.5
In	Indium and compounds (as In)	---		0.1
K	Potassium hydroxide	---		2
Li	Lithium hydride	0.025		0.025
Mg	Magnesium oxide fume
	Total particulate	15		10
Mn	Mn compounds (as Mn)		5			5
	Mn fume (as Mn)			5	1	3
	Manganese tetroxide (as Mn)	---		1
Mo	Soluble compounds (as Mo)	5		5
	Insoluble compounds (as Mo)
	Total dust	15		10
Na	Sodium bisulfite	---		5
	Sodium fluoroacetate	---		0.05	0.15
	Sodium hydroxide	2	---			2
	Sodium metabisulfite	---		5
	Tetrasodium pyrophosphate***	---		5
Ni	Metal and insoluble
	compounds (as Ni)	1		1
	Soluble compounds (as Ni)	1		0.1
Pb	Inorganic (see Code of Federal Regulations 1910.1025)
Pt	Pt metal	---		1
Sb	Sb and compounds (as Sb)	0.5		0.5
Se	Se and compounds (as Se)	0.2		0.2
Sn	Inorganic compounds
	except oxides (as Sn)	2		2
	Tin oxide (as Sn)			2
Te	Te and compounds (as Te)	0.1		0.1
Ti	Titanium dioxide
	Total dust	15		10
Tl	+ Soluble compounds (as Tl)	0.1		0.1
Y	Yttrium	1		1
Zn	Zinc chloride fume	1		1	2
	Zinc oxide fume	5		5	10
	Zinc oxide
	Total dust	15		10
	Zinc stearate
	Total dust	15		10
Zr	Zr compounds (as Zr)	5		5	10
* From reference 8.12 - Final Rule PELs were voided  by a court ruling and are not applicable *** Also can be analyzed for total phosphate content by ion chromatography. + Skin Designation

Ace, I do NOT take lightly the hazards associated with living, and making a living railroading.  I have spent a lot of years living and a few less making a living railroading; I have seen a good number of people die from both railroading and everyday living that I would have much rather seen keep on living, most of them much younger than I am.

I have run everything a railroad has to offer except a track liner or a tamper.  I have spent time in tenders cutting coal on hand-fired steam locomotives and have fired them myself, breathing both coal smoke and cinders.  I have ridden cabooses over the road.  I have run lots of diesels, including passenger GP9s whose steam generators seemingly exhausted into the cab instead of through their stacks, necessitating us to run with the windows open with the temperature about 10 above zero.

I also spent several years as a three-pack a day smoker (I quit in 1982).

Where I must be making my mistake is in feeling that this is a railfan's forum, and I don't think it's very appropriate for this type of discussion.   If you want to carry this on, why not find a forum where work-related hazards can be discussed without demoralizing others?

I know - I can just ignore this thread, but I've been intrigued about how far this thing can go, and to what end.

EdKing

This makes me wonder, where does all the automobile tire tread go?  Same basic issue you are raising, albeit rubber rather than metal, but on a much larger scale with many more people closely exposed.

PEL    Permissible Exposure Limits
STEL  Short Term Exposure Limit
TWA  Total Weighted Average (permissible exposure limit; OSHA)

 

Establishing "safe" limits is controversial. And of course there are many situations where conditions are unknown and not evaluated.

No, I'm not.

Yes, I have.

I'm well aware of the hazards of life: natural, industrial and self inflicted.

 

We can only protect ourselves the best we can in any given situation and we have zero control over our suseptibility due to genetics.

 

My one grandmother died of cancer, the other was a victim of Alzheimers.  Neither of them lived or worked in an environment considered condusive to either condition.  And I won't bother boring you with other medical issues that my family has faced.

 

We can sit around an worry about things we have little control over, or be aware and get on with life.

 

Rusty

 

 

Ed, I have lots of respect for your railroading experience.

 

This subforum is about "Real Railroading" so I didn't think this topic was out of line. I prefer discussing the more fun and interesting aspects of railroading and the vast majority of my posts have been in that direction. But this particular topic has been on my mind for years.

 

I did wonder if there were any former caboose crew people here who have seen metallic dust in the airstream of a train, as I have. There aren't many places where I can ask that question.

 

There are all kinds of potential risks in the real world of everyday living and working, and I think we have to accept most of them as part of modern life. But I also think we owe it to the next generation to expand our knowledge base so that others don't have to suffer the consequences of potentially avoidable risks.

 

For example, the connection between welding fumes and increased risk of Parkinsons has been recognized in just the last decade.

 

http://www.al.com/health-fitness/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/living/1234170914267710.xml&coll=2