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Before I get rid of my Ross Switches

T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
Before I get rid of my Ross Switches, Is there anyone that can offer an alternative to the Zstuff switch machine. Which I find to be totally useless.


Can anyone offer a better alternative to stuff or, a clear description of how to wire a Tortoise 800-6000 switch machine so that it will operate in non-derailing mode.

Ive read on this forum that I need a derailing board from Atlas.

Before I shell out for the parts I think I might need, Atlas 56 or 57 Deluxe Switch Control Box,1N4001 Micro 1a DIODES,Atlas 6924 O Gauge Switch Non-derailing Relay Circuit Board. (http://atlaso.com/pdfs/TORTOISEREV1.pdf)

This whole Ross ZStuff experience has made this hobby miserable to me. I wish I had gone with fastrack.
I have to totally give up on the operating the switches remotely with my legacy control.
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RailfanRonRailfanRonOGR Forum Member
What kind of problems are you having? Is the machine a DZ1000 or a 2500? I am running 2500s on Atlas and Ross switches and find that to make them work you have to be meticulous when you set them up. Ross switches have the mounting ties which make them a little easier than the Atlas. I have found that on both switches if you screw the track down tightly the switch will not reliably throw. If I get them to tight I back off the track screws on the switch first and if that doesn't fix it I then back off the switch machine mounting screws just a little. It takes me about an hour to program the machine and then install it on the switch. That may seem a little long but I lay my switches first then program the machine and last install them on the switch. If you install and program the machine on the switch BEFORE you put in on the layout the time could be easily cut in half.
Ron
FM Former Member
I have a drawer full of DZ switch machines of various models. Of all the machines I've dealt with IMO they're two steps below useless.

I use R/C aircraft servo's for under the table switch machines but I think the tortoise is good too. Mine don't pull power when they're not operating like the tortoise do, but any under the table machine can easily be made not to derail.

You simply use a piece of very stiff wire like stainless steel. I bend it around a medium xacto knife handle to make a spring .With the wire attached to the switch machine the spring part will still provide enough pressure to keep the switch points in place but will allow an engine and cars coming from the opposite direction to drive thru the switch.

I've made hundreds of switches and I can tell you don't get rid of the Ross switches.They are the best 3 rail has to offer(Unless I make em myself LOL.)

Here is a pic of the servos I use .They're a little smaller than a quarter but strong enough to pull HO track off the ties.



David
DGJONESDGJONESOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
TNRandy, one of the wonderful features of the Tortoise switch machine is the spring allows the wheels to just push the points of the the switch out of the way when the switch is not in the correct position (I think this is called a passive non-derail feature). I have used Tortoise machines for over 21 years without any failures. They appear to be difficult to install but once you install two or three. you will find them not be that hard to install.

I have a friend who had 30 switches with Atlas machines and was very frustrated that the points were not always where they should be. I replace all the Atlas machines with Tortoise and he states it is the best improvement he has ever made to the enjoyment of running his layout.

Another nice feature is the two sets of SPDT relays that are built into the Tortoise.

And at about $19 each, they are just a little over 1/2 the cost of the Atlas board.

Ross makes the best switches available in O gauge trains. Don't throw them out because you do not like to Z-stuff machines.

Good luck and happy railroading,
Don
mikeporterinmdmikeporterinmdOGR Forum Member
I've been finding the dz-1000s to be quirky. They either work 70% of the time or they always work. Lately, I've been pulling out ones that don't work. I'm tired of messing about with this "don't tighten them too much." I'll try it, but usually the motor is still unreliable. I'll save up a bunch of junk ones and mail them back at some point.

I like this under the table idea. But, I have to admit that the dz-1000 and the dz-1008 is a nice package and the fact that very little power is needed to actually cause the activation means I can run 22 gauge around the layout. The actual power feed to the dz-1000s is 16 gauge, but the wire to the AIU and buttons is 22 gauge.

Mike
D DennisBOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
quote:
a clear description of how to wire a Tortoise 800-6000 switch machine so that it will operate in non-derailing mode.


Tortoise machines move the points very slowly and for that reason, wiring them up for non-derailing is useless. Besides, like Don said the spring wire allows the wheels to push through a closed switch.
Marty FitzhenryMarty FitzhenryOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
My layout is almost 30 years old. I have many Ross switches and still use the old NJ twin coil machines. Do they look good--not at all. Do they work perfectly--every time. When I built the layout these were the hot setup. They have three sets of contacts that I use for panel LEDs , signals and track routing. Recently they became hard to find and my friend Jim Queenan came to my rescue with a box of them for me.
Marty FitzhenryMarty FitzhenryOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
Hello Dennis. I mounted all of them on the surface. About 20 years ago I broke my back in an accident and thought later how glad I was I surface mounted the mackines. I have had comments from people how they do not look good surface mounted. I do not care. I am a toy train operator that runs scale trains on a tinplate track layout. My Ross switches work perfect as a result of those machines.
T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by RailfanRon:
What kind of problems are you having? Is the machine a DZ1000 or a 2500? I am running 2500s on Atlas and Ross switches and find that to make them work you have to be meticulous when you set them up. Ross switches have the mounting ties which make them a little easier than the Atlas. I have found that on both switches if you screw the track down tightly the switch will not reliably throw. If I get them to tight I back off the track screws on the switch first and if that doesn't fix it I then back off the switch machine mounting screws just a little. It takes me about an hour to program the machine and then install it on the switch. That may seem a little long but I lay my switches first then program the machine and last install them on the switch. If you install and program the machine on the switch BEFORE you put in on the layout the time could be easily cut in half.
Ron

This is all very good advice. I've done this. Even tho the switch motors came per mounted
T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by DPC:
I have a drawer full of DZ switch machines of various models. Of all the machines I've dealt with IMO they're two steps below useless.

I use R/C aircraft servo's for under the table switch machines but I think the tortoise is good too. Mine don't pull power when they're not operating like the tortoise do, but any under the table machine can easily be made not to derail.

You simply use a piece of very stiff wire like stainless steel. I bend it around a medium xacto knife handle to make a spring .With the wire attached to the switch machine the spring part will still provide enough pressure to keep the switch points in place but will allow an engine and cars coming from the opposite direction to drive thru the switch.

I've made hundreds of switches and I can tell you don't get rid of the Ross switches.They are the best 3 rail has to offer(Unless I make em myself LOL.)

Here is a pic of the servos I use .They're a little smaller than a quarter but strong enough to pull HO track off the ties.



David

This is worth perusing The Ross switches work great when no switch machine is attached. So it should work well when the tension is removed enough to allow passage of train.
T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by DGJONES:
TNRandy, one of the wonderful features of the Tortoise switch machine is the spring allows the wheels to just push the points of the the switch out of the way when the switch is not in the correct position (I think this is called a passive non-derail feature). I have used Tortoise machines for over 21 years without any failures. They appear to be difficult to install but once you install two or three. you will find them not be that hard to install.

I have a friend who had 30 switches with Atlas machines and was very frustrated that the points were not always where they should be. I replace all the Atlas machines with Tortoise and he states it is the best improvement he has ever made to the enjoyment of running his layout.

Another nice feature is the two sets of SPDT relays that are built into the Tortoise.

And at about $19 each, they are just a little over 1/2 the cost of the Atlas board.

Ross makes the best switches available in O gauge trains. Don't throw them out because you do not like to Z-stuff machines.

Good luck and happy railroading,
Don


This is very encouraging. Thank you ! I bought two of the 6000 for $15 each. I'll install them tonight.
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by DennisB:
David,

I like your idea of using R/C servos. Please tell me more. It looks like an elegant solution.

I tried looking up R/C Servos and there's a lot to digest. Can you tell me what brand, type, price, where to buy, etc. for the servo you are using? What kind of programmable board are you using?


Dennis,

This is the go to guy for this kind of switching machine.
I bought several of his first Gen boards and I lost the owners manual 8 years later one e mail the him and he fired off a PDF and I got it about 30 mins after I sent the e mail.

You need to read a little here and watch some of his videos.

I switched them from my N scale layout when I went to O.
The servos I use are used in R/C helicopters so they're strong as heck and fast as lightning if you want them to be.

In our application they'll last virtually forever.

You can actually mount these little guys with double sided tape if you want to.

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/home.html

David
T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by TNRandy:
quote:
Originally posted by DGJONES:
TNRandy, one of the wonderful features of the Tortoise switch machine is the spring allows the wheels to just push the points of the the switch out of the way when the switch is not in the correct position (I think this is called a passive non-derail feature). I have used Tortoise machines for over 21 years without any failures. They appear to be difficult to install but once you install two or three. you will find them not be that hard to install.

I have a friend who had 30 switches with Atlas machines and was very frustrated that the points were not always where they should be. I replace all the Atlas machines with Tortoise and he states it is the best improvement he has ever made to the enjoyment of running his layout.

Another nice feature is the two sets of SPDT relays that are built into the Tortoise.

And at about $19 each, they are just a little over 1/2 the cost of the Atlas board.

Ross makes the best switches available in O gauge trains. Don't throw them out because you do not like to Z-stuff machines.

Good luck and happy railroading,
Don


This is very encouraging. Thank you ! I bought two of the 6000 for $15 each. I'll install them tonight.


Ya'all have been very helpful. I have one last question. What type of toggle switch or button to use to throw the tortoise switch motor? How is it wired?

Testing with a 9volt battery I noticed that you have to switch polarity on the first and last contact on the motor to throw it in the opposite direction. Can I use the zstuf switch button? If so, how do I wire it. Red Black White wire.

Thanks for your help.
D Dave_COGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Dennis, a review of the RC servos can be found in the May/June issue of
O Scale Trains.

My layout is 22 years old. Ross Switches from Day 1 with Tortoise motors. Never a failure with a motor. In my passenger yard that is a shelf type. I did it on the cheap and installed ground throws.
I'm in the process of rebuilding my staging area into a engine service facility. The ground throws were replaced by Tortoise's. A little harder to install now that I'm older under the layout. On the originals I replaced the wire to the throwbar with a heavier one. Read it somewhere it was the thing to do. No internet in those days. On the latest ones I used the stock wire and can attest the points just move away when entering the wrong way.
For simplicity with above the table mounting. The best thing I've ever seen is the Del Aire pneumatic ones with a valve to opperate them in slow motion. I believe one of the OGR Layout videos show these in action.
As far as non derailing is concerned. Sure I have my share. Especially in my yard area. In the 3 rail world this feature seems like a must have. All the layouts in the 2 rail world it isn't done. Unless your talking computer driven ones. The least derailing seems to occur in my passenger yard with the ground throws. You seem to focus much more on the task at hand.
NH New Haven JoeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
TNrandy,

My layout uses DZ 2500 machines with Ross and Atlas switches. Mine work fine. I have set up most of them for non-derailing and I find that they work very well. I think that the DZ 2500 is an excellent product and I have had very quick responses from Z-Stuff whenever I have had a question. I know several people who are very happy with DZ 1000 machines.

My Ross switches are very reliable. I have had more problems with Atlas switches than with Ross.

I agree with the other posters that Tortoise machines are also very good. My club uses them on our HO layout. Installing them under the layout can be a real challenge, however. I can attest from personal experience that installing a DZ 2500 on top of the layout is much easier than installing a Tortoise under it.

Here is a photo of my yard that is still under construction and the control panel.





Joe
T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Barker:
TNrandy,

My layout uses DZ 2500 machines with Ross and Atlas switches. Mine work fine. I have set up most of them for non-derailing and I find that they work very well. I think that the DZ 2500 is an excellent product and I have had very quick responses from Z-Stuff whenever I have had a question. I know several people who are very happy with DZ 1000 machines.

My Ross switches are very reliable. I have had more problems with Atlas switches than with Ross.

I agree with the other posters that Tortoise machines are also very good. My club uses them on our HO layout. Installing them under the layout can be a real challenge, however. I can attest from personal experience that installing a DZ 2500 on top of the layout is much easier than installing a Tortoise under it.

Here is a photo of my yard that is still under construction and the control panel.





Joe


Thanks for posting! Very Impressive control panel! I must have received a bad batch of those DZ 2500 motors.
Dewey TrogdonDewey TrogdonOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
There are a few keys I use when installing Tortoise under the layout:

1]first, place the track switch precisely where you need it on the benchwork.

2]Center the switch points precisely in the center of the running rails
and use a couple of cue tips [or the like] wedged in between to maintain the centered positioning.

3]mark for drilling a hole in the benchwork on the throwbar end between the long ties centered where the wire "throw" hole is. Drill a couple of 3/8"holes close to one another and clearout with a rasp or saw between them to create a slot. Allows room for the springwire to "throw" clear of the benchwork.

4]Drill a 1/16" hole at each end of the throwbar and place a 3p headed nail loosely in each hole.

5]Crawl under and place a ruler accross the nails and mark a straight line
between them--remove the nails. This line is your guide to ensuring that the Tortoise Motor is placed exactly parallel to the throwbar up above for a straight springwire "throw".

6]Drop a straight pin in the throwbar hole, go under and where it comes
down thru, mark a line 90 degrees accross the other straight line you marked previously.

7]Fasten your switch down with a couple of track screws.

8]As Circuitron instructed, shape the wire and install it both in the fulcrum and in the motor's movable "carrier" down below. Temporarily apply power and center the spring wire to point straight up.

9]Place a quarter size piece of double-stik tape on the top of the Tortoise.

10]Now the most difficult step that, at 80 years old, usually takes me two tries.Look straight up from underneath and insert the springwire in the throwbar hole being careful to align the motor both ways before pressing the taped motor against the bottom of the layout.[I use extra long springwires because of 1/2" foam & 5/16" cork on top of the 1/2" plywood bench work].

11]Crawl back out, remove the cue tips and determine if the switch points remain centered. If not twist and pop the taped motor back off and adjust.
Then put power to it and determine if the points close tight against the running rails in both the "thru" and "out" directions.

12]When adjusted install 4 small short screws to retain the Tortoise[the tape will hold it for a couple of years but not sure how much longer--thus screws.

I power the Tortoise with 12 VDC via a wall wart but if you desire slower points closing, use a variable transformer to adjust voltage lower.
T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Dewey Trogdon:
There are a few keys I use when installing Tortoise under the layout:

1]first, place the track switch precisely where you need it on the benchwork.

2]Center the switch points precisely in the center of the running rails
and use a couple of cue tips [or the like] wedged in between to maintain the centered positioning.

3]mark for drilling a hole in the benchwork on the throwbar end between the long ties centered where the wire "throw" hole is. Drill a couple of 3/8"holes close to one another and clearout with a rasp or saw between them to create a slot. Allows room for the springwire to "throw" clear of the benchwork.

4]Drill a 1/16" hole at each end of the throwbar and place a 3p headed nail loosely in each hole.

5]Crawl under and place a ruler accross the nails and mark a straight line
between them--remove the nails. This line is your guide to ensuring that the Tortoise Motor is placed exactly parallel to the throwbar up above for a straight springwire "throw".

6]Drop a straight pin in the throwbar hole, go under and where it comes
down thru, mark a line 90 degrees accross the other straight line you marked previously.

7]Fasten your switch down with a couple of track screws.

8]As Circuitron instructed, shape the wire and install it both in the fulcrum and in the motor's movable "carrier" down below. Temporarily apply power and center the spring wire to point straight up.

9]Place a quarter size piece of double-stik tape on the top of the Tortoise.

10]Now the most difficult step that, at 80 years old, usually takes me two tries.Look straight up from underneath and insert the springwire in the throwbar hole being careful to align the motor both ways before pressing the taped motor against the bottom of the layout.[I use extra long springwires because of 1/2" foam & 5/16" cork on top of the 1/2" plywood bench work].

11]Crawl back out, remove the cue tips and determine if the switch points remain centered. If not twist and pop the taped motor back off and adjust.
Then put power to it and determine if the points close tight against the running rails in both the "thru" and "out" directions.

12]When adjusted install 4 small short screws to retain the Tortoise[the tape will hold it for a couple of years but not sure how much longer--thus screws.

I power the Tortoise with 12 VDC via a wall wart but if you desire slower points closing, use a variable transformer to adjust voltage lower.



Thank you very much for the detailed instructions. I could have saved a lot of "GD it's" if I had read it first.

If you're able to crawl under the bench work at 80 and get that small wire spring aligned, you're a better man than me at 56. I have no right to squawk.

Thank you
mikeporterinmdmikeporterinmdOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by taylorra:
I am using a dozen DZ1000 switch machines. Had partial throw problems with most. Solved with a liberal dose of powdered graphite thru the slot in the top.
Still have occasional problems, but they are related to my TMCC setup with SCII
controllers rather than the switch machines.


I tried this last night. Worked pretty well. Converted a 1 in 5 bad throw dz-1000 to 10-15 clean throws and no failures.

I already had the graphite from lubing Kadee couplers.

Mike
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by mikeporterinmd:
quote:
Originally posted by taylorra:
I am using a dozen DZ1000 switch machines. Had partial throw problems with most. Solved with a liberal dose of powdered graphite thru the slot in the top.
Still have occasional problems, but they are related to my TMCC setup with SCII
controllers rather than the switch machines.


I tried this last night. Worked pretty well. Converted a 1 in 5 bad throw dz-1000 to 10-15 clean throws and no failures.

I already had the graphite from lubing Kadee couplers.

Mike


You do know that graphite conducts electricity? It's carbon and carbon conducts so if it gets to the little circuit board in that DZ? Poof.
I suggest using a silicone lube so it will be plastic compatible.

David
Pine Creek RailroadPine Creek RailroadOGR Forum Member
Gentlemen,
I was considering Ross switches on my next FasTrack layout, after reading this post I do believe I will stay with my old 072 Lionel switches, which work perfectly when individually powered. I may purchase a set of FasTrack switches and see how they repetatively work. It seems nobody can advise me as to how well the Ross switches work with Tim Plate Engines & rolling stock, and with the problems noted here I doubt I will add the Ross switches to this next layout.
PCRR/Dave

T TNRandyOGR Forum Member
If I had it all to do again. I would have used all fastrack.
That is only my opinion. I am somewhat satisfied with my track. It is all Ross. With Ross roadbed. After I painted the roadbead with a gray sandstone spray paint. It looks very similar to fastrack. I have some fastrack. I like how it fits together and the trains run great.

I liked how the Rosstrack is somewhat flexible. If your track layout is "off somewhat".
And it cuts easily with a Dremel tool.
I've probably worked in quality assurance too long. But if I ran Ross. I'd definitely pre tested the switch motors prior to shipment. On all switches with premounted switch motors. Which they definitely did not do on my order. Although it was a small order. Just under $2500.
Dewey TrogdonDewey TrogdonOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
I don't know about the "D" motors most seem to use with Ross turnouts, but as regards the track switches themselves, on three very active and comparatively large layouts over time I have truly never experienced difficulty with Ross or Curtis turnouts[at one time Ross and Curtis were together--Curtis no longer produces].

I only have steamers, they range from 0-6-0 to 4-6-6-4, and a few transitional era diesels. For switch motors I have only used Tortoise and a few manual ground throws. I have used postwar tublar switches, Gargraves and others and agree that experiences and costs vary. But for me there is not a better quality track switch than Ross.
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Dewey Trogdon:
I don't know about the "D" motors most seem to use with Ross turnouts, but as regards the track switches themselves, on three very active and comparatively large layouts over time I have truly never experienced difficulty with Ross or Curtis turnouts[at one time Ross and Curtis were together--Curtis no longer produces].

I only have steamers, they range from 0-6-0 to 4-6-6-4, and a few transitional era diesels. For switch motors I have only used Tortoise and a few manual ground throws. I have used postwar tublar switches, Gargraves and others and agree that experiences and costs vary. But for me there is not a better quality track switch than Ross.


Dewey,

I agree 100 percent. I've made somewhere around 300 N scale switches and I can tell when they're made right or just close to right.

Ross is the best your going to get .Oh you could do a little better if you made them yourself but it would be very little.

I do wish Ross had made some solid rail switches instead of going to tin plate.

I can make em out of Atlas flex but I'd be easier to buy them LOL.

Here's 2 of my switches The big one is an 0-54 made from Atlas flex track
The little one is a #10 right hand curved switch made from code 80 Atlas flex track.

That's why I say the best you can get out of the box is Ross.
David

rrmanrrmanOGR Forum Member
I just installed eight Ross O-72 tinplate switches to replace the crappy K-Lines O-72. Had problems with those K-Line switch motors that required removing the switches from layout and aggrevating motor disassembly Mad. Incidently the mechanical and electrical are identical between ZStuff and KLines! In fact Dennis at ZStuff claims KLine ripped off his design.

Ross switch are flawless and worth the investment Smile. Trains go through quietly and smoothly, not bumpty bump of K-Lines. Also had to insulate parts of KLines rails because engine rollers shorted out to stock rails Mad.

I too have been having problems with the Z motors Frown. Been sending them back to ZStuff for repair. Dennis claims that the latest batch had quality control issues. Problem is that the stud on the bull gear is hitting the micrswitch cam shutting off motor prematurely. I have sent Dennis an electrical fix to overcome those problems, he says thanks, so don't know if he will follow through.

So don't ditch the Ross turnouts itself just the motors. Plenty of good suggestions above. If the ZStuff motors don't stand up I may be crawling under the layoout to add some quick throw motors.
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