Beginner 3 rail questions (but not beginner model railroad)

Richard Marsden posted:

How does the MTH plastic base track compare to Fastrak?   From my experience with N, Kato always 'won' because it had the largest range and was widely available compared to the competition.

Are there different types of coupler? Or is everything the same? If different, are they easy to swap out? (ie. like N and British 7mm)

How interchangeable are the different command control systems?  Can locos fitted with any particular systems be also used with conventional AC?

Regards, 

Richard

• MTH (RealTrax) vs Lionel FasTrack. My personal preference is the FasTrack for temporary layouts because of the electrical connections. The manual FasTrack 036 switches are also a very good choice.
• You will find three types of couplers. The big claw couplers, Kaydee scale couplers and hook style couplers on old Tinplate. The vast majority of what you will see will be the claw couplers. They mix and match across all brands of rolling stock. 
• Command Control. You can run TMCC with MTH DCS, but you can't run DCS with any other brand of system. Legacy (Lionel) will run w/ TMCC with limited features.

As for a Christmas set, the Polar Express is a great choice. There have been several versions of the locomotive. The very first release had a small motor. I had one and went through three boards before selling it for parts and buying a new LionChief version. Love the new one; it pulls like a bear.

My personal suggestion is to strongly consider MTH products. MTH has Realtrack , which is good and EZ to assemble (if one reads directions) for floor layouts. The Lionel transformer that I would avoid is the CW-80, instead opting for MTH Z-1000. MTH in the long run allows expansion of "command-control" runing. While some Lionel products may be OK, I have been very satisfied with MTH. Lionel is a old name, but MTH has continuous focus on model railroads. In addition they have European stuff also. Lionel sets e.g; Polar express or Hogwarts will work well with MTH transformers.

(Edit: there were no other replies when I started writing this, for what it's worth)

--Virtually all MTH locomotives offered in the past several years (i.e. those marked as ProtoSound 2 or ProtoSound 3) are command-equipped, but run just fine in conventional. When powered up, they figure out by themselves whether they are under DCS or conventional control (in the absence of a command signal, they power up in conventional mode. Same for Lionel TMCC/Legacy)

--Some early MTH locomotives, those with ProtoSound (without any following digits) were programmed not to leave start-up mode if they detected electronically modified ("shark-tooth" rather than sine wave) AC waveforms. They weren't intended to exclude Lionel transformers, it's just that certain ones (notably the CW-80 and some of MTH's earlier Z-series transformers) provided just that sort of power.

--With FasTrak and RealTrax, your mileage may vary. Some aren't too fond of MTH's method of joining its track together, while FasTrack is reputed to be very noisy unless you have a sound-absorbing surface beneath it.

--The couplers are all the same size and in theory are all compatible. In practice, small differences in manufacturing tolerances mean some brands may need additional pressure to latch closed when coupling to a different maker's couplers. A tendency to uncouple unexpectedly is an on-again-off-again problem in a subset of all manufacturers' couplers except for Kadee, but those are a finecale-ish retrofit that has a widely varying degree of difficulty so far as equipping typical 3-rail 'O' trains with them.

--As mentioned before, DCS and TMCC/Legacy are capable of detecting whether they are operating under their respective command systems or just conventional. TMCC/Legacy and DCS systems can be connected to the same track and operate their respective locomotives simultaneously without interfering with each others' signals (DCS has the added ability to operate a TMCC/Legacy control box (through a connecting cable) without involving the latter's remote, although only to the older TMCC feature set). LionChief locos, found in starter sets, can only run with their respective remote. LionChief+ locomotives, almost always separate-sale items, are manually switchable between remote and conventional AC operation.

Hope this helps,

---PCJ

I happen to favor MTH engines because of price verses Lionel. While Willaims engine might be a good choice for basic engines they don't have any command control with them.

I prefer the old tubular track because of cost and configuration of track. Tubular track can be cut to fit unlike Fastrack or Realtrax which limit you to what you can build without killing your wallet.

For command control or remote control; Lionel's TMCC can be accessed by either TMCC or Legacy. MTH's DCS only runs MTH PS-2 or PS-3 engines, "NO TMCC control by DCS!" I have an Atlas engine with TMCC and can't control it with DCS.

Lee Fritz

There is a reason the Lionel post war trains are popular - affordable, durable, easy to maintain and clean,  lots of choices of operating cars, tubular track is rugged and adaptable and conventional control is easy and fun. lots of good, rebuilt Lionel ZWs out there. The track is easy to put down and take up.  No boards to burn out and lost signals. Go for it !!

phillyreading posted:

For command control or remote control; Lionel's TMCC can be accessed by either TMCC or Legacy. MTH's DCS only runs MTH PS-2 or PS-3 engines, "NO TMCC control by DCS!" I have an Atlas engine with TMCC and can't control it with DCS.

Lee Fritz

Of course you can run TMCC with your DCS system. You do need the TMCC command base + cable. BUT you are able to run TMCC with your DCS remote. Need to get a copy of the DCS Companion by Barry Broskowitz.

And while I'm at it, you can run your conventional locomotives with your DCS remote too. Do it all the time with my WbB. Not all the features/functions of the command control locomotives but you control the bell/horn, speed and direction. Enough to have some fun w/o being stuck in front of a transformer.

For a toddler to grow up with the Post War Lionel or current Williams by Bachman is about as bullet proof, simple, durable, and reliable as it gets. The couplers are compatible with a wide range of O-27 and O products from other manufacturers. The child can spend more time running trains rather than becoming a double E in training.

Bogie

Richard, I understand your motivation for your questions, and they are honest questions. And as you will see, you are going to get a wide multitude of answers and opinions.

But there's a basic problem of adults (with their own ideas and firm preferences) speaking on behalf on what is best for children. I've done many public shows with a display layout geared to kids. Not once ever did any kid ever notice that I didn't have command control or that the trains were not scale, or that the trains didn't have digital sounds... let kids be kids. They'll play and they'll make the sounds on their own! It's called pretend and imagination. And I've personally witnessed it many times. But nope, we adults say "they have to have this and that, or they won't enjoy it." We adults are the ones robbing kids of their childhoods and imaginations.

The kids didn't notice the difference between Lionel, K-Line, Marx, MTH or Williams trains. Matter of fact, many adults didn't notice either: They were all Lionel - because that's the name people associate with 3-rail trains. Even with the glorious postwar years of Lionel: We all remember the F3, the Trainmaster and the Hudson, yet Lionel sold far more 027 train sets.

Going to your questions.

1) As mentioned above, although couplers are the same basic design, they are all subtly different from differing train makers. Some differing brands couple with other brands easily, some don't. If you want to avoid any troubles, stick with one brand.

2) Don't necessarily rule out LionChief because of the DC power. You can power LionChief with a transformer. My experience with building kids layouts is that is almost preferable on a small layout to wire signals and crossing gates not to the track, but individually with a push button. It gives the kids more to do on a small layout.

3) MTH train sets do have more heft to them and are a quality product. They are also more expensive. Lionel HAS the starter set market: They sell more and are more widely distributed. Because they sell more, you will be more likely to find used FasTrack and other Lionel items. That's not written in stone, but it's just sheer numbers. Lionel has sold far more starter sets. You're much more likely to find a deal price on a Lionel starter set, new or used.

And since this is a train set for a toddler, you might want to start slow and see how it progresses. You can always make changes and move up later as your boy takes interest. As the hobby moves into the "command era" there are some deals to be had on older non-command, transformer operated train sets. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Former Lionel owner Dick Kughn said the Lionel NYC Flyer train set outsold every other set in the catalog combined. Making it likely the best selling item in the entire catalog outside of track. The 4-4-2 engine in that set is a basic yet dependable and reliable performer, that will likely please your boy. It's not as heavy or as detailed as the starter MTH steam engine, and it's a little more complicated to take apart and service than the MTH starter steamer, BUT it's not as expensive either and it's very commonly available as are also the parts.

FasTrack or RealTrax? Which do you like? They both have the advantage of setting up the floor layout on carpeting. As mentioned, the RealTrax is not as easy to assemble as FasTrack. Not mentioned, is that the MTH RealTrax standard starter set curve is 31 inches, making it easier to do a small layout like maybe on a 3 ft. wide hollow core door, when you get to that point.

The standard FasTrack curve that comes in starter sets is 36 inches. They do make a 31 inch FasTrack curve, but they don't come in sets, so'll you have an added expense. The actual 42 inch diameter (with roadbed) for 036 FasTrack makes doing smaller layouts a little more challenging.

You could use the plastic roadbed track for the floor layout, and then later buy tubular for a built layout. But that's your preference.

Try taking your boy to a train show and see how he reacts. He still may be young, but you'll get an idea of what he likes... just watch his eyes as he looks at the trains. Don't worry as much about what you like... notice what he likes (so long as it's not out of your price range ).

Thanks everyone - it sounds like the "lightly used" approach is indeed the way forward. I will be looking at the MTH range - even if I don't buy an MTH set, I think the range will be useful for expansion.

Yes we've taken him to a couple of shows - OK City last December when he was a bit too small. Then last week we went to a local show at some gardens (a show I've participated in, in the past). He was noticing the N, but spent much longer watching the G - which were at floor level, and they made noises. He seemed to react to the 'chuffing' of the steam engines.

I'm thinking of slow expansion in future years, and obviously that can follow needs and interest. E.g. a siding and freight would add play interest. Having some switches and lights could be a good introduction to electric circuits. If he likes that, then we can look at more sophisticated control.

If he gets really interested to the point of a permanent layout, then the answer is N. I have a lot of N, and have experience of kids and N from shows. Obviously he's too small for that at the moment, but I've found that if they have a little bit of patience then kids do much better with N than the standard recommendations: Kids have better eyes and smaller fingers than us adults! My test track (currently packed up after a house move) could easily be adapted to be "his layout" - shorten the legs and buy some of 'his' rolling stock.  Landscaping could be a joint task.

Gilly@N&W posted:

phillyreading posted:

For command control or remote control; Lionel's TMCC can be accessed by either TMCC or Legacy. MTH's DCS only runs MTH PS-2 or PS-3 engines, "NO TMCC control by DCS!" I have an Atlas engine with TMCC and can't control it with DCS.

Lee Fritz

Of course you can run TMCC with your DCS system. You do need the TMCC command base + cable. BUT you are able to run TMCC with your DCS remote. Need to get a copy of the DCS Companion by Barry Broskowitz.

And while I'm at it, you can run your conventional locomotives with your DCS remote too. Do it all the time with my WbB. Not all the features/functions of the command control locomotives but you control the bell/horn, speed and direction. Enough to have some fun w/o being stuck in front of a transformer.

You forgot to mention that you must have the TMCC base along with the DCS base in your first posting. If you have both(TMCC & DCS) then you can run TMCC with the DCS remote.

Lee Fritz

Then there is the "Williams by Bachmann" operating cars, like the log dump car, that have  a remote control system and their remote control is "the only one" that will operate a Williams by Bachmann operating car. However the newer Williams by Bachmann remote will work with Williams before Bachmann operating cars. 

Also a while back K-Line made a few operating cars that used a remote control to work, again NO command control system will work with these. You can upgrade them to command control if you want.

TMCC, DCS and DCC will not operate any; K-Line, Williams, Williams by Bachmann operating cars! You must upgrade the operating cars to command control for which system you choose to be able to use them with that system's command control.

Lee Fritz

If your track will be continually assembled and taken down, Lionel tubular track is the sane choice (IMO). It is extremely rugged. My fixed layout has Lionel FasTrack. My Christmas display is Lionel tubular track.

I have had Real Trax and switched to Fastrack.  My observation is that Real Trax doesn't look as good as Fastrack and Real Trax is prone to breaking the connector tabs.  Not to mention I also had issues with the Real Trax switches. Real Trax was once solid rail but is now hollow.  To me it seems like Fastrack  is designed to be assembled and unassembled with little impact, not so with Real Trax. I run TMMC, Legacy, and DCS on Fastrack with no issues.

phillyreading posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

You do need the TMCC command base + cable.

You forgot to mention that you must have the TMCC base ...

phillyreading posted:

MTH's DCS only runs MTH PS-2 or PS-3 engines, "NO TMCC control by DCS!" 

Lee Fritz

You can buy just a TMCC command base to go with your DCS. Don't have to buy the whole set. I did.

WOW. Let's just be nice to the new guy, OK? This isn't a competition... Pour yourself two fingers of Talisker Storm and chill out. 

Have a nice day.

Hi Richard,

Get this for under the tree. The toddler can play with it and most likely operate it. Look for a CW-80 to run on AC. Get your own stuff later! Due in train stores Oct. or Nov.

Not sure exactly how old your son is, but he’s probably about the same age as mine (3 1/2) – so a few real-time thoughts.  Having on-hand the Post-War Lionel equipment that I grew up with, that’s what he’s been using on the basement floor for close to a year.  I think it’s going to be by far the best bang-for-your-buck.  Gently used A/C transformers, tubular 3-rail track, accessories, and engines/rolling stock are plentiful, reliable, and durable.  Running a conventional layout is almost foolproof as there’s just not much to it.  For less than $200 (and probably less than $100) you can certainly get everything you need to get started with a little shopping on eBay and a local train meet.  And when the inevitable accident happens, you won’t feel as bad when the car that gets dinged up only cost you $10.

Gotta go - time to wake the boy up…

Richard,

Sorry I didn't mention this earlier. Kids love to push trains. I bought my grand daughter (2 1/2) a couple of dummies. She has more fun pushing them around than watching a train run on it's own.

The old style Pulmor Lionel motor is a good choice for the same reason. Can motor gearing does not tolerate getting "pushed".

Gilly@N&W posted:

Richard,

Sorry I didn't mention this earlier. Kids love to push trains. I bought my grand daughter (2 1/2) a couple of dummies. She has more fun pushing them around than watching a train run on it's own

 

So true and a great tip. My almost three year old spends more time pushing and crashing cars than watching or running them with a transformer/handheld. Heck our little ones even just like pushing box cars, flat cars, anything!!!

The $20 cars that Menards offers are very rugged and you won't mind if they take a beating. You can also usually get a second car for free that includes some sort of vehicle that the kidos like too. Menards.com. 

Have fun with your project!

Hi Richard,

It looks like there is no shortage of info for you.  But incase you want/need more, I'll add my 2 cents .

I made my 1st 3 rail purchase about a year ago.  My son was 2 1/2 at the time.  We bought a conventional ready to run set.  We had fun with it and still occasionally run it.  That was the beginning and now he is a train nut!  We have a fairly modest layout in the basement and he's got 5 or 6 different "layouts" of his own in other parts of the house (mostly the Thomas wooden sets).

Although your not headed in that direction, I thought I would add one thought for you to ponder.  We have since purchased some of the Lionchief Thomas sets and he's had WAY more fun with those than the original conventional set we purchased.  Looking back, I wish I would have purchased a Lionchief set vs. a conventional set.  

Hope this helps a bit!

Moonman posted:

Hi Richard,

Get this for under the tree. The toddler can play with it and most likely operate it. Look for a CW-80 to run on AC. 

 

For some of the issues associated w/ the CW_80, look up the subject in past replies.

I'd never recommend it! Dave G.

At our house, my son now 7, loves pushing around the cars.  For the last few years I have kept a siding to set the locomotive on, so he can still push the cars.  We have two rules, do not push the locomotive, and do not pick up the cars. We always have another siding to so he can rearrange cars.  He has been good about these rules since he was a little over three.  In the following years, he has learned to operate the transformer and last year he was running two trains via TMCC all on his own.  

I have a old set from my dad that we use under our tree (since 1970 & before I was born), and a couple of years ago I purchased a legacy RTR Conrail set that we have also used under the tree.  I started with tubular track, then switched to Fastrack.  The Fastrack is very easy to use, but expensive and noisy, and will still pull apart at times during normal use.  The original 60 watt transformer from my das's set still works good, and have no problems the CW-80 that I received with my Conrail set.  

We have since expanded and are now building a bigger layout in our basement, my track preference has changed, but I don't have any regrets on the purchases that I have made to get me to this point.  

Whatever you decide, I'm sure you and your son will create some great memories.    I have had fun with our evolution in our train sets and have had fun watching him on the basement stairs running our trains without him knowing I was there watching.

Thanks everyone. I still think Fastrak is the way forward. As with the smaller scales, the plastic base track often has a place - even if it isn't appropriate for all situations.

Interesting that in addition to the "post-War", there are also some LionChief suggestions - eg. that Thomas set. I'll have to mull over that decision :-)

BigTruckPete: Thanks re Menard's. We don't have them around here but they have mail order...

dgauss posted:

Moonman posted:

Hi Richard,

Get this for under the tree. The toddler can play with it and most likely operate it. Look for a CW-80 to run on AC. 

 

For some of the issues associated w/ the CW_80, look up the subject in past replies.

I'd never recommend it! Dave G.

You are really tossin' the coal heavy. You do realize that the year is 2016. What year are you still in?

FWIW: I've cycled through numerous children and grandchildren. They all liked to see the trains go fast. So my first recommendation is to buy a PW locomotive, cast metal. The old "sidewinder" locos were the closest thing to immortal you're likely to see. I also bought, here and there, "sacrificial" cars, since they are likely to get banged up.

Second, the chillun all got tired pretty quickly of watching a train go around in circles. So I added operating cars and accessories-the Lionel milk car has always been a favorite. I have the old coal loader (the one that makes a wonderful grinding noise) and the log loader. Added a switch to place cars on either side. Kept them going for many minutes. They have all grown up, but insist that I have a train under the tree every Christmas.

Good luck.

dandeo50 posted:

I have had Real Trax and switched to Fastrack.  My observation is that Real Trax doesn't look as good as Fastrack and Real Trax is prone to breaking the connector tabs.  Not to mention I also had issues with the Real Trax switches. Real Trax was once solid rail but is now hollow.  To me it seems like Fastrack  is designed to be assembled and unassembled with little impact, not so with Real Trax. I run TMMC, Legacy, and DCS on Fastrack with no issues.

When I switched from HO, to O 3 Rail, I went with RealTrax, because to ME, it looks so much better than Fastrack.

 Having bought numerous Lionel sets, I have used both FT and RT, I like the appearance of RT better, and have found that, IN MY EXPERIENCE, FT doesn't stay together any better than RT does without clips, and RT offers the "H" clips, which will hold the track together, and FT, doesn't offer ANY kind of positive track lock. If you are running on a hard surface such as vinyl or hardwood, RT also offers rubber feet, to keep the track in place, again this is another feature that FT doesn't even offer, and either FT or RT WILL move around on hard surfaces without being secured in some way, the sharper the curve, and the faster and heavier the train, the more it will move on a hard surface.

 RT, does need a bit more care taken when assembling, but again, I have found that FT does not stay together any better than RT, after multiple assembly/disassembly cycles, but RT offers the H clips to remedy that issue. With a bit of extra care, I have run a 13x24, O72 loop on carpet, with just H clips securing it for 5 weeks, with just a single power connection, without ANY troubles, that was also with TMCC, Legacy and DCS.

MY preferences are for Lionel Locomotives, with TMCC/Legacy, and Realtrax for temporary layouts (Atlas O track, for permanent layouts), NOT because, when cut I bleed Blue & Orange, or Yellow & Purple, but because those are what in MY EXPERIENCE, I have had the best performance with, YMMV.

Doug

dgauss posted:

Moonman posted:

Hi Richard,

Get this for under the tree. The toddler can play with it and most likely operate it. Look for a CW-80 to run on AC. 

 

For some of the issues associated w/ the CW_80, look up the subject in past replies.

I'd never recommend it! Dave G.

Well, some people just can't let go of the past. SOME MTH locomotives don't play nicely with the CW-80, I would fault the locomotives, as much as I would the CW-80, but that does not seem to be politically correct on this forum.

  As far as the "Past Issues" with the CW-80, those were corrected before 2006, there should not be any Issues with the CW-80, other than some MTH locomotives not playing Nicely with together.

 In MY EXPERIENCE, I have used many more CW-80's than Z-1000's, and had as many Z-1000's FAIL, as I have had CW-80's FAIL, which averages out to a much lower failure rate. I have found the CW-80's to have a lower minimum starting voltage, than the Z-1000's, which for many locomotives that have minimal electronics, can mean for a much smoother start. The CW-80 has a NOMINAL wattage rating of 80 watts, the Z-1000 has a NOMINAL wattage rating of 100 watts, I have not found the case where the CW-80 WOULDN'T run a train, where the Z-1000 WOULD, yep, I'm sure it COULD happen, but I haven't experienced that case yet personally. The CW-80 has a Variable accessory output, the Z-1000, has a fixed voltage (14 volt, IIRC) accessory output.

  I personally prefer the traditional looking appearance of the CW-80, to ME, the Z-1000, looks like something out of a cheap HO set, and the "ALL IN ONE" construction is something else that I prefer, to the separate Power Brick/Controller format of the Z-1000. I have given many Friends and Family members sets and have offered the choice of the CW-80, or the Z-1000, evidently, I am not the only one who prefers the appearance of the CW-80, as not a SINGLE recipient has chosen the Z-1000 option.

NEITHER, the CW-80 OR the Z-1000, were designed or marketed as Basement Empire power supplies, USED AS INTENDED, either one should give reliable service, but for the reasons listed above, I prefer the CW-80, over the Z-1000, and WOULD HIGHLY recommend the CW-80 to anyone that has a need that is suitable for one.

Again, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).

Doug

Don't be afraid of a Lionchief set. At our modular layout setups I have seen many 3 year olds pick up the controller and do just fine running the train.

IMO wooden train is best for kids under 10 years old. The Thomas the Tank Engine wooden trains have many options and along with DVD's will give your child hours of positive experiences. They can build their own track plans and recreate much of what they see on DVD's.

And my children's experiences is that they are much more interested in building "trains" and pushing they around their track plan.

There will be plenty of time to transition to the good stuff. But you may not wish to wait that long. I sure didn't. Grown men gotta play with trains too!

Richard Marsden posted:

Hello, First I should describe my background: I've been model railroading for about 15 yrs - N scale modular (DC/DCC) and British Finescale O (7mm/ft, 2 rail DC/DCC, mostly brass kit locos and wagons).

We have a toddler and live in the US and this will be his first Christmas in the US, so the tradition of Lionel trainset around the tree beckons! I've managed to find out quite a bit online already. I'll post what I'm thinking so anyone can tell me if I'm way off base; and then finish with some fairly simple beginner type questions.

Okay, I'm thinking about a loop around the tree, but also something that can be expanded over the years. Still keep it under the tree, but add a siding, perhaps a second loop, maybe a second train. Perhaps in 5+ years add our own control system (I'm the type of Dad who is more likely to build a robot with him, than teach him baseball!). This slow growth is good for the wallet and also his interest. There's no point in having sidings/etc at the moment (he is too young), but having a siding and freight could be good in a few years time.

So looking at it from that perspective, it seems like the "conventional" AC is the way to go. Easy to automate myself if I wish to (track detection is easier with 3 rail), and quite frankly there's no need for radio control or command control.

So that crosses off all the current Lionel starter sets with their "LionChief" systems. Browsing these forums, it seems like MTH get a lot of recommendations, so I've ordered a catalog. Are they all command control?

Actually I'm currently thinking of going for a "lightly used" ~10yr old Lionel set that runs off conventional AC and has the Fastrak (plastic base track being A Good Idea considering the application). A quick browse on EBay shows a number of "Polar Express" sets from the time of the movie that would fit these requirements - and of course have a Christmas theme.

So for the questions:

I've seen some references to MTH locos not working with the basic Lionel transformer. Is this still true?

How does the MTH plastic base track compare to Fastrak?   From my experience with N, Kato always 'won' because it had the largest range and was widely available compared to the competition.

Are there different types of coupler? Or is everything the same? If different, are they easy to swap out? (ie. like N and British 7mm)

How interchangeable are the different command control systems?  Can locos fitted with any particular systems be also used with conventional AC?

 

Regards,

 

Richard

Hi everyone. I too am in a situation similar to Richard. I have a toddler and I'd like to get him interested in the hobby. I have fond memories of playing with train sets with my father and brother when I was a child. My son is only one but already seems to enjoy trains. 

Everything looks a lot different from when I was a child. I have an older RTR set, a Lionel 7-21905 a NY Central Freight set, very basic with a 40 w transformer. For right now I'd like to just set up a set around the tree during the Christmas season until he is a little older and is able to do more. I really want to get him the O gauge polar express lionchief. I'm hoping to be able to build off that set down the road with possibly a lionchief plus engine and getting more track using  the cars from my old set. I'd use the polar express around the holidays and the regular set the rest of the time.   I'm just not sure if the PE set is the wise choice or if maybe I should do a set like the Allegheny hauler 6-81269 set which has more track but like I said I already have an older freight set that's like new but pretty limited because it's older technology and low wattage transformer.   I'm thinking due to the movie and the digital sound and voices that the PE set would be a big hit with my son which is why I was leaning that way.  Any thoughts or suggestions?