Buying at Train Meets VS On-Line

I used to attend shows when I lived near some and had more free time.  Now, I don't have the money or the time to waste on travelling several hours and hundreds of miles to shows.  I especially don't have the money and time to waste on York--I can't afford the trip much less buy anything once I got there.

Were it not for eBay, I'd still be mostly limited to the Marx and MPC trains I got as a kid and the few pieces I picked up in grad school.  The stock I have that hasn't come from eBay in the last 20 years or so has come primarily from the boards here, and I have been quite happy about those transactions.  shows just are not a viable option for me.

Above, PhyllyReading mentioned that many eBay sellers don't post their items well, citing ignorance of the items' identity or scale/size.  Some of my best buys have come from just that sort of auction.

Whenever I bid, I simply factor the shipping cost into the bid.  If I can pay $100 for a piece, and the shipping is $25, I know not to bid more than $75.  There is simply no way to get 'taken" on shipping when you know the amount beforehand.  You may miss a nice piece, but another will come along.

I don't wait to get home from York to get on the Bay.... that is what laptops and smart phones are for, after your feet have demanded you crash in your motel room.

I like buying at shows and on auction sites, but the last couple purchases have been packaged very poorley and some tye of damage has occured, the latest a Klienschmidt driven N1 was packaged with Newspaper and very little of it and well you see the result. They only charged $15 for shipping and I offered to pay more and requested it to be packed properly, that went unanswered and well, see what happened. I know like the 1st poster mentioned that the shipping makes it a little unattractive, I think sometimes people don't charge enough and then they arrive like my N1. To be fair the seller was apologetic and helped since insurance didnt cover the poor packing, but now I have a lot of work to fix it that could have been avoided with a better packing job. As of late I will be spending more time searching the train shows than eBay.

Scale City Designs posted:

I like buying at shows and on auction sites, but the last couple purchases have been packaged very poorley and some tye of damage has occured, the latest a Klienschmidt driven N1 was packaged with Newspaper and very little of it and well you see the result. They only charged $15 for shipping and I offered to pay more and requested it to be packed properly, that went unanswered and well, see what happened. I know like the 1st poster mentioned that the shipping makes it a little unattractive, I think sometimes people don't charge enough and then they arrive like my N1. To be fair the seller was apologetic and helped since insurance didnt cover the poor packing, but now I have a lot of work to fix it that could have been avoided with a better packing job. As of late I will be spending more time searching the train shows than eBay.

I would have backed out right there...take note folks, there really is no penalty for canceling your purchase/bid. ( I think you can still leave feedback though - perhaps a risk).

I have people cancel purchases somewhat regularly. Sometimes with explanation, sometimes not. No point in losing sleep on it - cancel and move on!

You can always second-chance the back bidder if it was an auction.

But for sure, you really have to size up your seller...

Always be sure to review their feedback. I would look for...

Do they have a lot of feedback as a seller? (like over 50 sales)
Have they sold trains before/recently?
Does any of the feedback refer to the quality of packing?

If the answer is no to any of those - use caution!

I hope you left feedback for this seller, at least a Neutral rating...and mentioned the poor packing job...just as a courtesy to other buyers.

The eBay reputation system is excellent IMO - but too few people actually check up on their sellers rep.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

One last point before people throw rocks at me.  I get to see many engines where it is a toss up if they were broken up in shipping or before they were shipped.  Anything I pay money for I want to have control over it.  I have seen situations where UPS, and USPS have beat the hell out of a box and it's contents.  Try filing a case with them and see how it takes you to get very PO.  Go with works for you and hopefully you may get lucky.

Sam, you are correct.  I wish everyone luck.  On the other side of the coin, I am very happy for guys/gals who do make the big score.  If they take the risk, they deserve to score.

I have had two incidents, one with UPS, the other with the post office.  Both times I was fortunate to have been reimbursed.  Both times it was items I sold.  Neither were train related and both were difficult items to package.  So I was at fault in part.  However I will say this, no matter how well you think you have packaged a fragile item, there are times as Marty has pointed out where a postal or UPS employee may get the proverbial weed up their a** and drop kick a package.  I have shipped well over one thousand packages, mostly through USPS with only that one incident mentioned earlier.  

I'm not knocking you Marty, because I know damages happen.  I've just been lucky I suppose.  

 However I will say this, no matter how well you think you have packaged a fragile item, there are times as Marty has pointed out where a postal or UPS employee may get the proverbial weed up their a** and drop kick a package.

It doesn't have to be an ill tempered employee. When I worked at UPS, it was move, move, move, very little time to be extra careful with items marked fragile.
And a box doesn't have to be dropped or kicked. It could wind up in a stack, underneath some heavy stuff, and get crushed. Or maybe it could be crushed between other boxes during it's trip on warehouse transport systems (conveyor belts and such).

My point is: packaging is important.

Dan Padova posted:

I have had two incidents, one with UPS, the other with the post office.  Both times I was fortunate to have been reimbursed.  Both times it was items I sold.  Neither were train related and both were difficult items to package.  So I was at fault in part.  However I will say this, no matter how well you think you have packaged a fragile item, there are times as Marty has pointed out where a postal or UPS employee may get the proverbial weed up their a** and drop kick a package.  I have shipped well over one thousand packages, mostly through USPS with only that one incident mentioned earlier.  

I'm not knocking you Marty, because I know damages happen.  I've just been lucky I suppose.  

People think this - but I doubt that's what happens.

I went back and forth PA>Ohio a few times last summer - at least twice, I saw USPS and UPS semis that had been in a wreck - trailers ripped open packages scattered!

Saw one on the TV news this morning - (snow)

I think there are probably more wrecks like this than we realize - and probably leads to some of the more extreme damage we see.

Roving Sign posted:

Scale City Designs posted:

I like buying at shows and on auction sites, but the last couple purchases have been packaged very poorley and some tye of damage has occured, the latest a Klienschmidt driven N1 was packaged with Newspaper and very little of it and well you see the result. They only charged $15 for shipping and I offered to pay more and requested it to be packed properly, that went unanswered and well, see what happened. I know like the 1st poster mentioned that the shipping makes it a little unattractive, I think sometimes people don't charge enough and then they arrive like my N1. To be fair the seller was apologetic and helped since insurance didnt cover the poor packing, but now I have a lot of work to fix it that could have been avoided with a better packing job. As of late I will be spending more time searching the train shows than eBay.

I would have backed out right there...take note folks, there really is no penalty for canceling your purchase/bid. ( I think you can still leave feedback though - perhaps a risk).

I have people cancel purchases somewhat regularly. Sometimes with explanation, sometimes not. No point in losing sleep on it - cancel and move on!

You can always second-chance the back bidder if it was an auction.

But for sure, you really have to size up your seller...

Always be sure to review their feedback. I would look for...

Do they have a lot of feedback as a seller? (like over 50 sales)
Have they sold trains before/recently?
Does any of the feedback refer to the quality of packing?

If the answer is no to any of those - use caution!

I hope you left feedback for this seller, at least a Neutral rating...and mentioned the poor packing job...just as a courtesy to other buyers.

The eBay reputation system is excellent IMO - but too few people actually check up on their sellers rep.

I had already paid, as I pay as soon as the auction ends, but gladly would have sent more additional if he needed so. The seller has just shy of 25,000 feedbacks with almost all positive and all train items, so I did my homework. The seller like I said made things right the best he could without turning back the clock, so I cant see the value to ruin his score with a neutral or negative. The point I was trying to get across is that shipping does factor into the cost but truely sometimes its worth paying a little more and have it shipped correctly. We all would like to have free shipping me included but this seller couldnt ship this item to me for $15 including proper packaging, insurance, and the shipping charge, especially when ebay takes a percentage of it. Truthfully its a rare item being redrived by Stu Klienschmidt, that the seller didn't know he had, so I wouldn't have backed out anyway. Moral of the story, cheap shipping sounds great at the time of purchase but not always a good deal when it arrives. I also didnt write this to start another no ending writeup about ebay or to argue with anyone, I just saw several people state about shipping charges and thought I would give the opposite side of shipping being too low and what happens. Have a great day!

bigo426 posted:

The NY metro area used to be the place to be for train shows IMO. As far as I am concerned these days there just aren't any that are worth the admission. .....

When I first started in O (late 90's), I used to go back home to LI to visit sometimes and often visited when the Greenberg shows were happening at either Hofstra or Stonybrook.

While I'm not stating Greenberg shows are necessarily anything to rave about today, that venue used to bring some of the larger dealers from neighboring states to the LI/NY metro area.  I know for a fact I made a purchase on a nice blow out of a modern 164 log loader from Grzyboski at Hofstra back then.  I forget if others like Nicholas Smith and/or Charlie Ro used to attend as well, but I suspect maybe at least Charlie did, since he used to even do Allentown (farther away from MA than LI - he does not attend Allentown any more).

-Dave

Scale City Designs posted:

Roving Sign posted:

Scale City Designs posted:

I like buying at shows and on auction sites, but the last couple purchases have been packaged very poorley and some tye of damage has occured, the latest a Klienschmidt driven N1 was packaged with Newspaper and very little of it and well you see the result. They only charged $15 for shipping and I offered to pay more and requested it to be packed properly, that went unanswered and well, see what happened. I know like the 1st poster mentioned that the shipping makes it a little unattractive, I think sometimes people don't charge enough and then they arrive like my N1. To be fair the seller was apologetic and helped since insurance didnt cover the poor packing, but now I have a lot of work to fix it that could have been avoided with a better packing job. As of late I will be spending more time searching the train shows than eBay.

I would have backed out right there...take note folks, there really is no penalty for canceling your purchase/bid. ( I think you can still leave feedback though - perhaps a risk).

I have people cancel purchases somewhat regularly. Sometimes with explanation, sometimes not. No point in losing sleep on it - cancel and move on!

You can always second-chance the back bidder if it was an auction.

But for sure, you really have to size up your seller...

Always be sure to review their feedback. I would look for...

Do they have a lot of feedback as a seller? (like over 50 sales)
Have they sold trains before/recently?
Does any of the feedback refer to the quality of packing?

If the answer is no to any of those - use caution!

I hope you left feedback for this seller, at least a Neutral rating...and mentioned the poor packing job...just as a courtesy to other buyers.

The eBay reputation system is excellent IMO - but too few people actually check up on their sellers rep.

I had already paid, as I pay as soon as the auction ends, but gladly would have sent more additional if he needed so. The seller has just shy of 25,000 feedbacks with almost all positive and all train items, so I did my homework. The seller like I said made things right the best he could without turning back the clock, so I cant see the value to ruin his score with a neutral or negative. The point I was trying to get across is that shipping does factor into the cost but truely sometimes its worth paying a little more and have it shipped correctly. We all would like to have free shipping me included but this seller couldnt ship this item to me for $15 including proper packaging, insurance, and the shipping charge, especially when ebay takes a percentage of it. Truthfully its a rare item being redrived by Stu Klienschmidt, that the seller didn't know he had, so I wouldn't have backed out anyway. Moral of the story, cheap shipping sounds great at the time of purchase but not always a good deal when it arrives. I also didnt write this to start another no ending writeup about ebay or to argue with anyone, I just saw several people state about shipping charges and thought I would give the opposite side of shipping being too low and what happens. Have a great day!

You can still cancel after payment...the refund will be automatic - once the seller agrees. Use the eBay process.

Also - don't be afraid to leave honest feedback...particularly with a prolific seller like you cite.

You won't "ruin" their score...that score repairs itself. Negative and neutral feedback is no longer permanent.

The drop in their positive feedback score will be temporary...as long as the seller continues to perform well, that feedback will be healed, and he will hit 100% again.

I had this happen last year - an overseas buyer, received his item, and then left negative feedback because "shipping was too expensive" - (seriously folks, there's nothing you can do about jackasses...they're out there!) - took me down to 99% positive - within a few weeks I was back 100% feedback.

I really like train shows-meet & talk to a lot of people, scanning the tables and shelves for neat things to buy. Looking under the tables for bargains. My big buy of a box of Standard gauge cars  wouldn't have happened on line.  My budget is limited so I don't travel far to shows, gives me more $$ to spend.  I have found some train items at antique stores but not lately. My only "on line" buys are on the OGR forum.  We have two shows coming u in the next  6 weeks so that is enough for my wallet.

Roving,

I know you can back out, but again it was a RARE item that I REALLY wanted regardless, so backing out NEVER entered my mind. We all have opinions on feedback but I feel the seller made it right. So I was happy to leave him a +. This has truly got off track as my post was really only to address how shipping plays into the purchase online, as most everyone always complains about it being too expensive. My apologies for posting this, I only wanted to show what cheap shipping and bad packing will get you most of the time. 

Mallard4468 posted:

I prefer buying in-person, as the item can be examined and tested.  The downside of train shows is that too many vendors are still in denial regarding current values.  They just can't accept the fact that the MIB T-1 or B6 that they paid $1000 for in 1990 is only worth $250 - 300, or that their scratched and battery damaged postwar F3s aren't worth $500 anymore.  At least on ebay, a seller is going to learn the true value of such items pretty quickly.

Isn't that true.  Then sometimes you'll have the luck to find a vendor that is just a bit more realistic.  Way back in 1981, I was fortunate to gain a bunch of stuff from a couple who were moving away and wanted to sell the early post-war Lionel they had.    Locos, rolling stock, track, platform, catalogs, etc. were in the package.  Since I was still building my collection I wanted to sell some off to gain funds for more stuff that I really wanted.  The catalogs and a few pieces of stock were on the sell list.  After chatting with John Baines, I took the stuff to a train meet and was selling the catalogs for about $2.50 a piece.  Even then that was a good price.  It got me some quick cash.  The person that bought most of it was a dealer, Joe Gordon of the future Toy Train Station at the time, who turned around and put them on his table for quite a bit more than I had sold them to him for.  I don't know if they sold, but my point is that I accomplished what I had set out to do, quickly, with little effort, and cannot complain that he was savvy enough to catch a good deal.   

To get back to Mallard4468's point, the vendors who are trying to squeeze the last penny out of stuff they may have acquired when post-war trains were still drawing higher prices are living in a fantasy world right now.  maybe things will turn around at some point.  For me though, I wouldn't want to be schlepping boxes of stuff in and out of my truck and in and out of train meets over and over again.   

I buy at both never had a problem just have to trust the seller.

Dan Padova posted:

...

To get back to Mallard4468's point, the vendors who are trying to squeeze the last penny out of stuff they may have acquired when post-war trains were still drawing higher prices are living in a fantasy world right now.  maybe things will turn around at some point.  ...   

I'll never understand why folks like this live in denial.  The ONLY reason why prices of post-war Lionel trains increased the way they did back in the day was directly related to the fact that the supply was cut off drastically when The Lionel Corporation trimmed back production and then ultimately closed its doors in the late 1960's.  Nothing like that seems remotely on the horizon right now.  So these sellers are living in their own isolated dream-world.

Post-war trains might have still been somewhat desirable when Lionel's follow-on owners like General Mills and Richard Kuhn delivered reproductions, because a certain segment of buyers convinced themselves they wanted the post-war "originals".  But once the technology treadmill kicked into high gear, post-war trains were on borrowed time... as the critical mass of enthusiasts was drawn to products made with the more detailed tooling, smoother performance and better sounds.  The rest, as they say, is history.

David

I really like attending train meets.  I don't buy much any more but it is the primary way I connect with the train folks I have known for 40+ years.  I also like supporting the local parts guy and routinely go with a long list built up over months of waiting.

I also buy off of the Bay but as with any purchase, whether in person or on line the key is research.  You must know what you are looking at and this goes for the cars, computers, trains or anything else I buy on line.  If you don't know what you are looking at, don't buy it.

Rolland

 We all have opinions on feedback but I feel the seller made it right. So I was happy to leave him a +.

Things happen. If a seller makes an effort to make it right, then I think he/she deserves positive feed back.

After chatting with John Baines, I took the stuff to a train meet and was selling the catalogs for about $2.50 a piece.  Even then that was a good price.  It got me some quick cash.  The person that bought most of it was a dealer, Joe Gordon of the future Toy Train Station at the time, who turned around and put them on his table for quite a bit more than I had sold them to him for

I often have dealers or other table holders buy things from me for resale. Never bothered me. I get my price. They can lug the items around from show to show, or put it on the shelves in their stores while they try to get more.

The ONLY reason why prices of post-war Lionel trains increased the way they did back in the day was directly related to the fact that the supply was cut off drastically when The Lionel Corporation trimmed back production and then ultimately closed its doors in the late 1960's. 

We'll have to disagree on this. The limited supply of new product, coupled with demand by operators certainly contributed to rising prices. But there already was an active and growing community of collectors who had no interest in what was currently being made.
The frequent publication of new price guides with ever increasing prices also fed the frenzy, as people thought:
They might miss out and have to pay even more later
They could spend whatever, and always get their money plus back later.
They could justify their purchases as an investment.

The postwar collectors I know still won't look twice at a Modern era piece.

Personally, my interest ends with the end of the mechanical e-unit. Although I do own some electronically controlled trains.

Geez !!  This is a hobby not the stock market. I have never considered the possibility of increasing value when I was in ANY hobby-and there have been a few. If I like it and have the money, I buy it. Like I said before, I sold my automatic weapons of 4-5 times what I paid for them.  Can't beat that.  I am with  C.W., anything past mechanical E units  are not my interests. Last night I was watching two early Lionel trains, one Standard one O gauge zip around my layout, each one a good 90 yrs old.  can't beat it.

There seems to be many Thoughts on Buying on The Internet so to speak, (THE OGR FORUM), or Face to Face at one of the TCA, LCCA, OR other Train meets or Shows....I say, Buyer Beware at Anywhere You purchase your Model Trains and Related... One needs to do Their Homework prior to purchasing Older Post War-PreWar, as well as TMCC/DCS/LEGACY....IT seems to me purchasing from Established Retailers with Good Ratings would be a Plus. Second, purchasing from a TCA OR LCCA Member would be good.  However, if you have checked out Current Pricing and Conditions on the particular items you are looking for, There is nothing like a great Train Show to make your purchase.  York is probably the Cadillac of Train Shows...If One is buying the Older Post War Engines, its better to be able to test them before purchasing...Also, know what Questions to ask the Seller, like maintenance, Is this the Correct Motor for this engine, Where he or she purchased it from, or Inherited??? 

Now, DO TO our current Manufacturers BTO Way of getting their products to us, this has stopped the Money Flow as We set back this amount until shipment happens.  OUR money is actually tied up for a long period of time, Which can keep us from Buying a Steal of a Deal While WAITING!!! I think BTO is Fair, One just has to be Patient...It's 6-ONE--1/2 Dozen the Other.....I understand it's a Necessary Evil that We simply have to accept.....

In closing, I Sincerely Enjoy the Many Friends and Personalaties I have met in this Great Hobby...I enjoy Selling and Buying and Trading on this Forum..I enjoy buying from all The Sponsors in this Forum...We are a bunch of fun loving Toy Train Enthusiast and we are having Fun...That's what it's All About!!! Great Question, Great Post....

Lots of words here already, but I'll add a few:

Went to a local train meet today - some smokin' bargains for those ready to buy. Prices are soft.

Ebay is buyer beware, helps to have good feedback score, but shipping (especially of large items) scares me, have had very bad experiences with UPS and USPS recently. All tie back to less than stellar packaging, and the apes in shipping throwing the boxes around.

Have had good luck with both venues and yes, great to talk to fellow collectors at the meets, I go them as more of a social event than a buying opportunity.

And always be prepared to spring for something totally unexpected - seems to be a couple of incredible buying opportunities at each meet.

Jim Waterman

Second, purchasing from a TCA OR LCCA Member would be good.

Unfortunately, a club membership is no guarantee of an honest trader.
If both parties to a private transaction are TCA members, the TCA can mediate a settlement.
If only one party is a TCA member, or is running a train business, the TCA offers no help.
For example, the TCA recently announced that they could provide no assistance to people who felt wronged by that auction house in Connecticut.

Every group has their bad apples.

Your only defense is to educate yourself on what you are buying before making those purchases.

I have found better prices on Ebay. I also run into more problems. I would rather buy from forum members than Ebay. 

First though I prefer to buy locally. So the  local train show or hobby store. 

C W Burfle posted:

 We all have opinions on feedback but I feel the seller made it right. So I was happy to leave him a +.

Things happen. If a seller makes an effort to make it right, then I think he/she deserves positive feed back.

After chatting with John Baines, I took the stuff to a train meet and was selling the catalogs for about $2.50 a piece.  Even then that was a good price.  It got me some quick cash.  The person that bought most of it was a dealer, Joe Gordon of the future Toy Train Station at the time, who turned around and put them on his table for quite a bit more than I had sold them to him for

I often have dealers or other table holders buy things from me for resale. Never bothered me. I get my price. They can lug the items around from show to show, or put it on the shelves in their stores while they try to get more.

The ONLY reason why prices of post-war Lionel trains increased the way they did back in the day was directly related to the fact that the supply was cut off drastically when The Lionel Corporation trimmed back production and then ultimately closed its doors in the late 1960's. 

We'll have to disagree on this. The limited supply of new product, coupled with demand by operators certainly contributed to rising prices. But there already was an active and growing community of collectors who had no interest in what was currently being made.
The frequent publication of new price guides with ever increasing prices also fed the frenzy, as people thought:
They might miss out and have to pay even more later
They could spend whatever, and always get their money plus back later.
They could justify their purchases as an investment.

The postwar collectors I know still won't look twice at a Modern era piece.

Personally, my interest ends with the end of the mechanical e-unit. Although I do own some electronically controlled trains.

I don't mind you quoting me, but in the future, please quote me correctly. You left this part out of my statement;

I don't know if they sold, but my point is that I accomplished what I had set out to do, quickly, with little effort, and cannot complain that he was savvy enough to catch a good deal.

I don't mind you quoting me, but in the future, please quote me correctly. You left this part out of my statement;

Sorry if I offended you. I did not think I quoted you out of context.
I thought I was agreeing with you.

C W Burfle posted:

I don't mind you quoting me, but in the future, please quote me correctly. You left this part out of my statement;

Sorry if I offended you. I did not think I quoted you out of context.
I thought I was agreeing with you.

A case of misunderstanding, on my part.  After re-reading your post, several times, it finally penetrated.  

I prefer to buy in-person at a meet, preferably a TCA-sponsored meet. Part of being a member of TCA is agreeing to accurately represent what you are selling.

As a tinplate collector who is always in the hunt for certain items, I look everywhere, including ebay. Fortunately, those transactions have gone well. I've also bought trains on the Interchange in the TCA Headquarters News, but my preference is to buy in-person.

I bought a Lionel Silver Spike passenger set  (made around 1980) on Ebay where the power unit arrived damaged.  I sent photos to the seller, and she got full reimbursement from the shipper, plus she told me just keep the set, no need to return.   Problem with packaging;  every other car was wrapped well, except for the powered diesel.  

So, got a $140 set for no cost.  I was able to fix the power unit.   I must have been living right that week.  

Click here:

Silver Spike passenger train

POV of a seller:

I sell online through the forum, as well as ebay. I've also sold quite a bit at the local TCA meets. I'm mostly selling collections for someone else, but my sales in any given month can also include up to 25% personal stock.  

When I go to a meet, I am fully expecting to sell at least half of the merchandise I bring. I really don't want to bring it all back home. 
And except for crazy weather that keeps the buyers away, it is pretty much a definition of current market situations. So, for buyers, prices can be really good. As far as the costs for my time, it's a day or so of prep, then day of show, amortized across all goods sold. 

For online selling, there is a a lot more prep, photos, wirting listings, answering questions, packing for shipment (plus costs of that) and shipping itself. So there are more hours and costs that go into each lot, so the reserve price, or asking price are often well above what I'd take at an in person meet and sale.

POV of a buyer:

I've bought online through the forum, ebay, as well as the established auction houses. Have learned to be disciplined with auctions. (there will always be another). And have learned the "go to" tables at the local meets. Have got quite a few bargains at local meets because engines weren't in running condition, but because I collect/operate prewar and early postwar, I always get them running. Inspecting in person allows me to see if it just needs a little tune up, or if it is trashed inside. For online purchases, I only buy confirmed running stuff, though it's amazing how bad some of it is and still runs. 

Focus group of 1, I know. That's my take

Tim

I have never had a bad Ebay purchase, nor have I ever had a bad OGR forum purchase.  Train meets on the other hand I find to be challenging.  Train meets are only for parts that can't be found anyplace else, rolling stock and selected scenery not found in the LHS.  I have never seen a loco to my liking that I would buy at a meet when I know the LHS will either sell it at the same or lower price or I could pick it up from an online vendor.  

I prefer to buy at train shows.  I like being able to see and discuss the item with the seller.  Talking to the seller usually reveals a lot of hidden information (both verbal and non-verbal).  I bought a trolley recently that "didn't run".  Should have know better, actually I should have smelled of it before buying it.  It was totally fried inside.  But I didn't pay a lot for it and I now avoid the merchandise on at dealer's tables.  And at train shows it's usually easy to get a second opinion on things I am not familiar with.   I definitely do buy things that I currently don't need, but may in the future.  I am looking more at price and value.  The OGR forum is the only place I have purchased train items, without personally seeing the item.  But shipping damage is a definite problem and risk.  My preference is to buy at York.  It's quicker, easier and more educational.  I can pay for the gas expenses (3400 miles) in shipping cost savings.  I don't go looking for any specific items.  And for me, it is a fun experience and kind of a vacation.   My last experience on ebay was in the late 90's.  Paid $423 for something and never got it, and ebay was no help.  So I never used ebay again.

Mallard, I know he knows.  Many do not.  

I always wish everyone happy hunting.  I have purchased NIB locomotives that did not run out of the box.  Stuff happens.  Remember guys/gals the parts, wiring, and boards used in trains today are not MIL SPEC.   If you end up with a mulligan, someone on this forum can guide you.  I have been had a few times.  Three years ago, an OGR Forum member screwed me on fleabay holding off paying me stating he was sick.   He lied.  Nothing is perfect.  Have fun and run your trains.