The CAB1L package used to be a lower cost way to operate legacy. Am I right that the only way to operate legacy is the CAB3 ( which is not available yet)? Seems like Lionel is making it very pricey to enter the Command Control world. Lionel still offers the CAB1L controller but right now you can't operate turnout, accessories, and operating tracks with Bluetooth. It seems like Lionel has abandoned those who might want to try these systems without making a huge investment.
Thanks Art
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Where did you hear that the CAB1L was being discontinued?
Lionel is still making it. If you look at the most recent catalog, you'll see that it's in there, and it's been discussed on the forums here numerous times. Also, you can still use the CAB2 remote with the BASE3, but they are going to stop making it, instead replacing it with the CAB3 software.
@Up & Down the Monon posted:Where did you hear that the CAB1L was being discontinued?
Lionel is still making it. If you look at the most recent catalog, you'll see that it's in there, and it's been discussed on the forums here numerous times. Also, you can still use the CAB2 remote with the BASE3, but they are going to stop making it, instead replacing it with the CAB3 software.
The Cab 1L BASE is discontinued. Only the handheld will be produced.
There's going to be a black hole when it comes to command control for the next year. Cab3 if we are lucky will be out by Christmas. The new DCS TIU is just as long away. So unless you can find a #990 or Base 1L hidden somewhere, you are out of luck.
@RickO posted:The Cab 1L BASE is discontinued. Only the handheld will be produced.
(( facepalm ))
I stand corrected! Sorry for the misunderstanding, @Art Lites. Thanks, @RickO!
Saw the handheld was available and thanks for the confirmation on the base. I have both the DCS and legacy and have been using the phone app. for MTH and Lionel bluetooth. I am trying to get some geezers to take the step to command control but as far as smart phone several still have flip phones. Are you listening, Lionel/ MTH? Another aspect, I can only get the Lionchief app. on my Samsung 7. I have several smart phone and tablets which allow full control with MTH but I guess they are too old to support the Lionchief. Before I get flak from other geezers, I am also in a geezer but I have been working with digital technology for 50 years. So, I am not afraid to adapt when something new comes along, but alas I am in the minority. I will say in using the phone for control, it has had its moments.
Thanks Art
@superwarp1 posted:There's going to be a black hole when it comes to command control for the next year. Cab3 if we are lucky will be out by Christmas. The new DCS TIU is just as long away. So unless you can find a #990 or Base 1L hidden somewhere, you are out of luck.
The # 990 Legacy Command Set has been unavailable at the dealers for a long time and was in short supply the last few years even when it was available. Lionel did not do a good job in this case.
Pat
@irish rifle posted:The # 990 Legacy Command Set has been unavailable at the dealers for a long time and was in short supply the last few years even when it was available. Lionel did not do a good job in this case.
Maybe it wasn't that big a mistake. 
If they knew the BASE3 was coming for a number of years, why flood the market with Legacy #990 sets and dilute the market for the new baby?
When will the new DCS be shipped?
I think you'll have to wait until the smoke settles, I seriously doubt anyone here has any idea of the schedule!
I have a background in contract manufacturing. These are my thoughts regarding the future of a handheld Lionel remote.
Technology changes almost daily. Lionel has one problem. It just isn’t big enough. It is a small operation with a relatively small customer base and a large percentage of their base leave the hobby every year.
Contract Manufacturers are always up and running. Production space on the line costs money and takes time. in Lionel’s case vertical integration makes absolutely no sense at all That was the 20th Century and that’s be over and done two whole decades ago.
If Lionel designed a new handheld device, how many would they need to make to get a run time at an assembly factory? How much would it cost to develop? A physical handheld requires a lot of materials and can be labor intensive to to develop and assemble.
Will the customers buy it? There is a large percentage of hobby participants that haven’t bought anything since Little Orphan Annie went off the air. Figuring all the factors what would be the final price? Hobbyists are constantly complaining about the price of, let’s be honest, there are a lot of whining in this hobby about, well, everything.
It makes good BUSINESS sense to produce a virtual device like an app that can be modified by a simple consumer-friendly update There’s no limit on the production, no limit on future enhancements, and no hardware limitations as technology advances. Overall, it’s the best way forward.
For those in the hobby that must have their hands on a make believe throttle, there are of vintage power sources available and more coming with every estate liquidation.
Lionel is making the correct moves to ensure they remain a leader in the industry. It is certainly very different approach than the past iterations of the company.
I will contribute my "whining", I don't like running trains from my phone, please keep producing the hand held throttle. If I need to replace the base unit, well OK but, let me keep my hand held throttle, PLEEEEEEEEEZ.
RAY
@RixTrack posted:Lionel is making the correct moves to ensure they remain a leader in the industry. It is certainly very different approach than the past iterations of the company.
I think a lot of us can agree to disagree that Lionel is making all the correct moves. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Maybe it wasn't that big a mistake.
John:
LOL. Sounds like a conspiracy theory. Moreover, as someone who worked for sales and marketing companies my entire career, I don't view not having enough of your flagship Cab 2 bases in stock to satisfy customer demand over an extended period of time as "flooding the market." I view it as very poor management, planning and customer service.
Pat
@Rayin"S" posted:I will contribute my "whining", I don't like running trains from my phone, please keep producing the hand held throttle. If I need to replace the base unit, well OK but, let me keep my hand held throttle, PLEEEEEEEEEZ.
RAY
😀 You will always have the option for a physical handheld device. However, that device may have limited functionality whereas the app will not.
I'm into conspiracy.
However, I can certainly see if there were component issues that required a little (or a lot) of redesign, and they knew the BASE3 was coming down the pike, there would be a lot of pressure to just walk away from the Legacy command system and wait for the new one. I'm not sure that qualities as a conspiracy theory, why would you spend big money on a product that you were dropping?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think a lot of us can agree to disagree that Lionel is making all the correct moves.
I didn’t use the word all. I agree with you that Lionel doesn’t make all the correct moves. However, on the remote control issue, the current approach is not sustainable so moving away from it, at least for the time being, is the correct move now.
@RixTrack posted:😀 You will always have the option for a physical handheld device. However, that device may have limited functionality whereas the app will not.
Really? You know for sure that Lionel will always make the CAB1L? I do believe I see the "always" word in this pronouncement.
@RixTrack posted:Will the customers buy it? There is a large percentage of hobby participants that haven’t bought anything since Little Orphan Annie went off the air.
Huh???? 1942???? Command control wasn't even introduced until 1994. Talk about painting with a broad brush LOL!
It makes good BUSINESS sense to produce a virtual device like an app that can be modified by a simple consumer-friendly update There’s no limit on the production, no limit on future enhancements, and no hardware limitations as technology advances. Overall, it’s the best way forward.
Thats an assumption, due to the fact that the majority of people today are enamored/addicted to their device. Folks that enjoy trains more than staring at their phone may prefer the handheld, so they can watch their trains.
The fact that MTH was the first to drop the handheld, and even though a fraction of its former self. They have announced a return of a physical handheld speaks volumes.
For those in the hobby that must have their hands on a make believe throttle, there are of vintage power sources available and more coming with every estate liquidation.
Secondary market prices over $1000, indicate the idea of a " make believe" throttle is a popular one.
The Cab1 system was once deemed "obsolete". Ironically, the physical handheld reappeared as a Cab1L and the TMCC features reappeared as Lionchief 2.0
Lionel is making the correct moves to ensure they remain a leader in the industry. It is certainly very different approach than the past iterations of the company.
Also an assumption, time will tell.
I agree with remotes, the problem is that physical remotes are expensive to produce and given the size of this market it isn't surprising they would discontinue production. As others have said, software is a lot easier to support, you don't need a factory to do it, it comes down to making sure the functions work and then what can be a bear, compatibility with various versions of the device/os , but there is automated test software that can make that a lot easier. Even if Lionel had its own factory, a remote is expensive to build and support and I agree with others, they likely look at the product and realize that the future is going to be different than the past. If MTH comes out with a digital wifi remote it may change their minds, but I tend to doubt it.
Both MTH and Lionel are now in something that companies would love to avoid, a product gap. Likely the decision to go with base 3 and the new MTH DCS were made before the recent upheavals, and along with that phased out the old production assuming the new one would be done before they ran out. Then MTH with its changes and then Covid hit, screwing up everything. Problem is that they likely stopped producing new CAB2 and MTH TIU and the like, figuring they had enough on hand until the new platform showed up, and got caught short (and obviously, this is just my guess). This happened with the game industry, they made a big splash with their next generation systems but they literally didn't have the supply, and people wouldn't buy the older system (which was in short supply anyway because they stopped them), it hit them pretty hard.
For me I am in an interesting position, because I haven't gotten to the point of wiring my new layout, the delay likely won't hurt me, to test out my wiring I can do it with conventional control, will wire for command control but will wait and see how I do it, so the delay isn't harmful. People whose old units crap out are going to have to wait likely, given you can't really get replacements and the vultures are trying to make a killing in the third party market *shrug*.
@bigkid posted:For me I am in an interesting position, because I haven't gotten to the point of wiring my new layout, the delay likely won't hurt me, to test out my wiring I can do it with conventional control, will wire for command control but will wait and see how I do it, so the delay isn't harmful. People whose old units crap out are going to have to wait likely, given you can't really get replacements and the vultures are trying to make a killing in the third party market *shrug*.
No problem here, I have spares for all my command systems and remotes. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Really? You know for sure that Lionel will always make the CAB1L? I do believe I see the "always" word in this pronouncement.
How about I amend always to yours and my lifetimes? That makes much more sense. Thank you.
Will the customers buy it? There is a large percentage of hobby participants that haven’t bought anything since Little Orphan Annie went off the air.
Huh???? 1942???? Command control wasn't even introduced until 1994. Talk about painting with a broad brush LOL!
It makes good BUSINESS sense to produce a virtual device like an app that can be modified by a simple consumer-friendly update There’s no limit on the production, no limit on future enhancements, and no hardware limitations as technology advances. Overall, it’s the best way forward.
Thats an assumption, due to the fact that the majority of people today are enamored/addicted to their device. Folks that enjoy trains more than staring at their phone may prefer the handheld, so they can watch their trains.
The fact that MTH was the first to drop the handheld, and even though a fraction of its former self. They have announced a return of a physical handheld speaks volumes.
For those in the hobby that must have their hands on a make believe throttle, there are of vintage power sources available and more coming with every estate liquidation.
Secondary market prices over $1000, indicate the idea of a " make believe" throttle is a popular one.
The Cab1 system was once deemed "obsolete". Ironically, the physical handheld reappeared as a Cab1L and the TMCC features reappeared as Lionchief 2.0
Lionel is making the correct moves to ensure they remain a leader in the industry. It is certainly very different approach than the past iterations of the company.
Also an assumption, time will tell
Yes, Rick only time will tell. It’s interesting how you replied. However you offered only critical analysis without substantive alternatives. Every response you made looks back. What are your thoughts on what the future will hold. I’ve found that many participants in this hobby are entrenched in their own worlds, see only that which supports their own concepts, and fail to see the big picture of the hobby as a whole. So what are your thoughts?
One has to wonder how many spare unused remotes will end up in the landfill when folks pass on. Kids going through the train room..." Why did dad have 15 of the same remotes new in the package?"
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Really? You know for sure that Lionel will always make the CAB1L? I do believe I see the "always" word in this pronouncement.
Yeah, like the head of a company who says "there will never be layoffs at this company"
@MartyE posted:One has to wonder how many spare unused remotes will end up in the landfill when folks pass on. Kids going through the train room..." Why did dad have 15 of the same remotes new in the package?"
Of course, if the kids find 200 trains sealed in the shipper and no layout . It will come as no surprise. lol!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm into conspiracy.
However, I can certainly see if there were component issues that required a little (or a lot) of redesign, and they knew the BASE3 was coming down the pike, there would be a lot of pressure to just walk away from the Legacy command system and wait for the new one. I'm not sure that qualities as a conspiracy theory, why would you spend big money on a product that you were dropping?
John:
I was just having some fun with you with my "conspiracy" comment. I was quite serious, however, with the remainder of my post. Not producing enough # 990 Legacy Cab 2 bases and handhelds to satisfy customer demand and the needs of the dealers over an extended period of time, and delivering none to the dealers since late 2020 or early 2021, demonstrated very poor management, planning and customer service by Lionel. I think that conclusion is pretty obvious given the facts, but if anyone has any doubt, talk to any Lionel dealer and see what they say. I spoke to several of Lionel's biggest dealers in June 2021, and all expressed frustration with the situation.
Pat
@irish rifle posted:John:
I was just having some fun with you with my "conspiracy" comment. I was quite serious, however, with the remainder of my post. Not producing enough # 990 Legacy Cab 2 bases and handhelds to satisfy customer demand and the needs of the dealers over an extended period of time, and delivering none to the dealers since late 2020 or early 2021, demonstrated very poor management, planning and customer service by Lionel. I think that conclusion is pretty obvious given the facts, but if anyone has any doubt, talk to any Lionel dealer and see what they say. I spoke to several of Lionel's biggest dealers in June 2021, and all expressed frustration with the situation.
Pat
Not to defend Lionel, but again Covid likely was as much to blame as anything. They might have been planning to have 3.0 available in early 2021 and the whole covid/supply chain fiasco messed that up. When a company replaces a product they don't keep building the old unit until the new one is out there, they likely stop production when they think they have enough given the current schedule. Likely Lionel cut off production of the 990 in late 2019 or early 2020, and then covid threw a monkey wrench into the works. It could also be Lionel misjudged how long it would take to get Cab 3.0 even if Covid hadn't hit but my guess is a large part is covid.
"They have announced a return of a physical handheld speaks volumes."
It would speak even more volumes if the MTH DCS company that is currently theoretical had a customer service phone number and email, a website and some actual DCS product on the shelves with dealers. Criticizing Lionel, who have all of those things (well, not much on dealer shelves, Legacy-wise, admittedly) when MTH's stuff is still restricted to promises seems rather unfair and inaccurate. Lionel has a catalog with a handheld in it, albeit the cab-1L. When MTH has some similar device, as we all hope happens, let us know and post a link to the website or a scan of their catalog .
So far I see the new MTH being a boutique special run outfit who's major product is a different paint job for a limited number of products. I have to go along with the opinion that they're not showing me much right now. I'm hearing rumors that it make take a year or more to get more electronics for repairing existing product, I can freely order that stuff from Lionel right now. MTH has also jacked the price on the non-existent electronic boards for repair shops, something that is also a bit vexing.
As a person just getting into O scale I am not happy with the way Lionel went here. The cab 1L seems like a step back to use with the cab3 when it even gets here. I missed a chance to get a hold of a cab2 setup without paying over inflated prices for one now, so for now I am putting off buying any new engines.
Hopefully Lionel will revisit the idea of a handheld remote and come out with a new one to go with the cab3.
Nothing beats a good OLD transformer!
Gunny
I don't see where I was criticizing Lionel.
My point was if a defunct train manufacturer thought it was worth teasing at a potential handheld . There would be no point in playing games if their weren't people to play games with.
People can do what they want. I really don't care. I have the trains I need and the controls to run them.
How someone feels about a particular o Guage brand is about as important to me as what kind of car they drive, it's not.
@gunny posted:Nothing beats a good OLD transformer!
Gunny
Gunny,
Well said, but everyone else in this thread seems to disagree, since they're quite upset with having to pay through the nose for a good NEW Cab-2/Base-2 set.
And judging by the emotional energy here it appears that you're not going to convince them otherwise, unfortunately.
Mike
Mike,
No question about that!
Gunny
@RixTrack posted: I’ve found that many participants in this hobby are entrenched in their own worlds, see only that which supports their own concepts, and fail to see the big picture of the hobby as a whole. So what are your thoughts?
Years ago there was a survey taken regarding the type of train control.
I guess with the newer technology. It would be interesting to see how popular control via app would be over our small cross section of hobbyists on the forum.
I'm not against the new developments, and for folks who are looking forward to it that's great.
I think there will always be advantages to the 990 handheld that an app will never overcome due to the fact the touchscreen must always be viewed in order to select the proper function.
But, maybe I'm in the minority here. That's all well and good. I have enough remotes to last me until my family unloads my trains for pennies on the dollar.
@gunny posted:Nothing beats a good OLD transformer!
Whatever blows your hair back. If that works for you, go for it. Personally, I don't feature being welded to a control panel to run my trains, so I'll continue to go with command control.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Whatever blows your hair back. If that works for you, go for it. Personally, I don't feature being welded to a control panel to run my trains, so I'll continue to go with command control.
John, you said it better than l could hope to ever say it.
Might there be a way to have a hand held remote with handles and buttons that can operate with the app? I am not a tech wizard, just my hope. If finger touches can do it, can buttons and handles?
Ray
@Rayin"S" posted:John, you said it better than l could hope to ever say it.
Might there be a way to have a hand held remote with handles and buttons that can operate with the app? I am not a tech wizard, just my hope. If finger touches can do it, can buttons and handles?
Ray
In theory that is possible, you could have a hand held controller that uses either the USB C (or whatever they call the io port on the Apple Phones) or you could connect via bluetooth to the phone (assuming it isn't using bluetooth to connect to an LC engine). The problem is that the app is coded to use the touch screen on the phone. In theory you could have an app that runs on the phone that would trick the Lionel ap into thinking it was getting a call for something coming from the touchscreen when something comes from the USB C/Apple port from the controller,but that wouldn't be easy or maybe impossible (not an expert on phone architecture; in a regular computer putting in a resident program to simulate calls from an i/o device like a touchscreen is relatively easy, the IOS and Android emulators that run on computers to allow writing and debugging phone code do that(. If the Lionel AP itself had an api with a published spec (kind of like they did with TMCC with its command signals that MTH DCS uses to control TMCC engines) you could write an app that would trap commands coming from the controller and use the Lionel app API (if it existed) . Given the amount of work involved, would be unlikely someone would do it, it def isn't easy IMO.
How about this:
See my original post, with an additional example taken from drones:
Smart Phone Gamepads | Mellow Hudson Mike
Mike
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