"I don't see where I was criticizing Lionel."

My apologies if I misinterpreted your comments.  Nonetheless, offering MTH's plans for a new handheld as a realistic consideration now is optimism at the outer limits of credibility, for reasons well covered on this forum.  A wait and see posture seems most balanced for a company that's gone from dissolution to fragmentation over the last year or so.

If you want a handheld to talk with your wi-fi system, Lionel is a more realistic target for hobbyist pressure/appeals, in my view.  They appear to be a going concern with good momentum, as far as one can tell, at least at present.  And they have a catalog, and that catalog has a handheld remote that will talk with their current (sort of) and future command base.  Convince them that the cab-1L needs to be upgraded to control all Legacy functions by some technical magic.  And as a potential bonus see if they would be willing to develop the software/cabling to talk with the old TIUs and the new Wi-Fi-TIUs.  Lots of folks have PS2 and PS3 locos they want to control but there is no current product in a catalog that can control these in the future.  This a potential new market for Lionel, rescuing possibly orphaned competitor product that is widespread in consumers' hands.

There is a further problem with the Lionel Lionchief App.  As I mentioned before, it will not load on my older smart phones and tablets.  I did have it loaded on tablets and about a year ago it would not work.  I assume when they upgraded the App. that the software was too sophisticated for these older tablets and smart phones.  It works with my current android phone which is two+ years old.  However, the latest DCS App. works with all.  Bottom line is that if you go with Lionel Bluetooth/ wi-fi  you may have to buy a new phone or tablet. 

I have a Samsung Galaxy S21, no problem running the LC BT ap.  However, I also have a Samsung Galaxy Note 4 from a few years ago.  That one, using the same LC BT version will NOT pair.  Yes, I've tried the same 0000 and 1234 default PIN codes, it always comes up with an error that it can't pair.

So, the Malarkey that you can use your "old" unused phone for the task is just that.  The Note 4 has no problem using BT to pair to other devices, just not to the Lionel engines.

The mind-boggling thing here is, that some pundits here are having trouble why many of us object to going to 3rd party devices for controlling the trains.  Never mind that the interface isn't nearly as seamless as a physical remote, in many cases, it simply doesn't work!   Exactly how much evidence do you need that this is a bad idea?

I guess I should take solace in the fact that the MTH WiFi application works fine for MTH engines...

@RickO posted:

I'm not against the new developments, and for folks who are looking forward to it that's great.

I think there will always be advantages to the 990 handheld that an app will never overcome due to the fact the touchscreen must always be viewed in order to select the proper function.

But, maybe I'm in the minority here. That's all well and good. I have enough remotes to last me  until my family unloads my trains for pennies on the dollar.

I'm not against it either.  I agree 100% with you on the downsides of touchscreens, in all things when it comes to control, they take your eyes off the action.

What I'm against is introducing a new base that is 25% more expensive than the last base, doesn't include a remote, and has features I'll never use.  I'm NEVER going to buy a LC/LC+/LC2 engine as they're not scale offerings.  Seems to me that control for those could have been added via an LCS module rather than make everyone pay for a feature they might not use.  Sure you get a "free" LCS Wi-Fi module but that's only because there is no handheld remote.

@rplst8 posted:

... rather than make everyone pay for a feature they might not use.

Unfortunately there are many, many situations with many, many products, where people pay for a feature they may not use, or receive a feature for "free" that they don't really want.

Very common.  No difference here.

They haven't designed it to meet your specific needs, or my specific needs either, but to generally cover the wants and needs of all of us, as a group, as best they can.

If for some reason you believe that your needs represent the needs of the average purchaser better than what they've come up with, perhaps you should ask them for a job in marketing.

We're all going to lose something on this one, but hopefully gain something too.

Mike

@rplst8 posted:

I'm not against it either.  I agree 100% with you on the downsides of touchscreens, in all things when it comes to control, they take your eyes off the action.

What I'm against is introducing a new base that is 25% more expensive than the last base, doesn't include a remote, and has features I'll never use.  I'm NEVER going to buy a LC/LC+/LC2 engine as they're not scale offerings.  Seems to me that control for those could have been added via an LCS module rather than make everyone pay for a feature they might not use.  Sure you get a "free" LCS Wi-Fi module but that's only because there is no handheld remote.

As the other poster said, most products out there contain features we don't use but are there nonetheless, lot of times you buy a car off the lot and get things you don't want, few people BTO in the auto world for example (I don't even know if you can do that any more...).

That 25% price increase likely is not because of all the features they have added to the base, I think that simply reflects the cost of production. I saw the ZW-L around labor day for 630 bucks on special sale, was running around 680 other places, today it is like 900 (not saying I like it). The idea that if they didn't offer this or that would reduce the price is likely not true.

I understand not liking dropping the remote, but I don't think the base 3 price is based on the combined functionality costing more, that is price inflation caused by any number of things (and please, no rants on where this came from, it doesn't matter, the price is what it is).

it was replaced by 6-37155.... you can preorder one here

@rplst8 posted:

What I'm against is introducing a new base that is 25% more expensive than the last base, doesn't include a remote, and has features I'll never use.  I'm NEVER going to buy a LC/LC+/LC2 engine as they're not scale offerings.  Seems to me that control for those could have been added via an LCS module rather than make everyone pay for a feature they might not use.  Sure you get a "free" LCS Wi-Fi module but that's only because there is no handheld remote.

The irony being that Lionchief was originally created to offer a more simple as well as a more affordable remote control. Now those folks have the option to add a $500 base when they didn't want the $300 base and handheld. Go figure.

@RickO posted:

The irony being that Lionchief was originally created to offer a more simple as well as a more affordable remote control. Now those folks have the option to add a $500 base when they didn't want the $300 base and handheld. Go figure.

The double irony is that you CAN still operate LionChief and Legacy locomotives in a simple and affordable remote control. It’s called the Universal Remote and it’s only $44 to $49.

It’s a nice bright orange, there are no wires to hook up and it isn’t canceled! It’s also real easy to use.

It’s amazing how many times Lionel’s CAB-1L has been “canceled” in various OGR threads. This thread is just the latest.

Oh boy. I have a flip phone because I don't want or need a smart phone.  I don't know but people with smart phones around here are glued to them. They can't seem to put them down. Very rude to say the least. Don't want to join that madness. For what it would cost me for a smart phone per year I could buy a Lionel engine or two. So I guess when my Cab two dies I will be done with buying Lionel engines.

@Gweedo posted:

Oh boy. I have a flip phone because I don't want or need a smart phone.  I don't know but people with smart phones around here are glued to them. They can't seem to put them down. Very rude to say the least. Don't want to join that madness. For what it would cost me for a smart phone per year I could buy a Lionel engine or two. So I guess when my Cab two dies I will be done with buying Lionel engines.

You could be waiting for a long time. I still use a 25 year old CAB-1.  Your CAB-2 could last for years.

Well I hope it lasts . Bought it when Legacy  first came out. Sent it in for repair once.

@Gweedo posted:

So I guess when my Cab two dies I will be done with buying Lionel engines.

Why aren't you done now?  Why wait and have to deal with the headache later?

On second thought, instead of complaining here where we can do nothing about it, why don't you take your issue to Lionel directly?

Do something about it.

Mike

@MrMuffin'sTrains posted:

it was replaced by 6-37155.... you can preorder one here

Steve:

Yikes. That's what you call going backwards to go forward. I'll stick with my #990 Legacy Command Set. I have another one as well in case anything goes wrong in the future.

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Why aren't you done now?  Why wait and have to deal with the headache later?

On second thought, instead of complaining here where we can do nothing about it, why don't you take your issue to Lionel directly?

Do something about it.

I think this is unfair for two reasons.  First, when Lionel came out with the CAB-2 and discontinued the CAB-1, customers spoke up about how much more complicated the CAB-2 was to use and how much more expensive it was.  Lionel realized their mistake in alienating a certain segment of customers, and came out with the CAB-1L.  Second, this is a discussion forum for topics concerning trains.  There are separate forums here for real trains, tinplate, scale, traditional, control systems and manufacture specific topics.  Discussing the status of a well loved product and it's demise are, IMHO well within the limits of what the forum is designed for.  It's a place for fellow hobbyists to share their experiences, opinions, kudos, complaints, and all that goes with enjoying the hobby.

I have no doubt that there are a huge swath of folks that are excited for the Cab3 app and Base3.  That doesn't mean there isn't an existing segment of the population that maybe wasn't totally enamored by the CAB-2, and since it was basically out-of-stock most places, were waiting for a "new remote" to be announced, but do not like using a smartphone app.

I actually think that the hybrid approach of an app or and a more basic remote like the CAB-1L is a good compromise where the less often used and more complicated features can be configured with an app, and the "running trains" part can be done from a physical remote.  But paying $500 for the privilege is hard to swallow when it doesn't include the remote.  If the Base3 included the CAB-1L, I'd have a lot less heartburn about it.  In fact, I probably wouldn't have scoured the internet and called and emailed 30 different dealers until I found a 990/CAB-2 set.

This is why I posted this a few weeks ago.  Some people disagreed.

John

@Gweedo posted:

So I guess when my Cab two dies I will be done with buying Lionel engines.

On that day, I'll give you ten cents on the dollar for all your Lionel Command locomotives.

@Gweedo posted:

Oh boy. I have a flip phone because I don't want or need a smart phone.  I don't know but people with smart phones around here are glued to them. They can't seem to put them down. Very rude to say the least. Don't want to join that madness. For what it would cost me for a smart phone per year I could buy a Lionel engine or two. So I guess when my Cab two dies I will be done with buying Lionel engines.

I am not advocating one way or the other, but just to clarify, you can get new android smart phones relatively cheaply and you don't need to have a yearly plan just to use it for this.

Brendan

I went online today to buy a Lionel Cab-1L/Base-1L Command Set and soon discovered they are no longer available. I did a query and found this discussion thread that explains what's going on with that former product. I guess Lionel just saved me about $300 that I was going to spend on my 4x8 layout running two TMCC locomotives. They function fine in conventional mode but I lose the independent control, the automatic couplers, and crew talk. No big deal.

@Plankowner110 posted:

I went online today to buy a Lionel Cab-1L/Base-1L Command Set and soon discovered they are no longer available. I did a query and found this discussion thread that explains what's going on with that former product. I guess Lionel just saved me about $300 that I was going to spend on my 4x8 layout running two TMCC locomotives. They function fine in conventional mode but I lose the independent control, the automatic couplers, and crew talk. No big deal.

The CAB-1L command set is in the latest 2022 Lionel and will be available this year.  You should be able to pre order a set from your favorite dealer.

@Madockawando posted:

The CAB-1L command set is in the latest 2022 Lionel and will be available this year.  You should be able to pre order a set from your favorite dealer.

Time for a visit to the eye doctor.   Only the CAB-1L is offered in the 2022 Big Book, the base has been discontinued and will not be produced.  The only way for someone new to TMCC/Legacy to use this remote is to buy the $500 BASE3.  So, around $700 later, they have the option that used to cost around $250.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Time for a visit to the eye doctor.   Only the CAB-1L is offered in the 2022 Big Book, the base has been discontinued and will not be produced.  The only way for someone new to TMCC/Legacy to use this remote is to buy the $500 BASE3.  So, around $700 later, they have the option that used to cost around $250.

why not just purchase

#990 LEGACY COMMAND SETSKU: 6-14295

for $399.99?

@TB440 posted:

why not just purchase

#990 LEGACY COMMAND SETSKU: 6-14295

for $399.99?

Love to!  Do you have a link?

They've been going for $1000+ of late

@TB440 posted:

why not just purchase

#990 LEGACY COMMAND SETSKU: 6-14295

for $399.99?

Because they have been discontinued and are no longer being produced either.

Glad my Cab 1 and Powermasters still work — I run pure conventional equipment — and hate to think of the day when I’ll have to navigate the confusing seas of replacement options.

@TB440 posted:

https://clanwalter.com/product...gines-on-same-track/

https://hustledude.com/product...0-legacy-command-set

The second link says it's unavailable.

If someone wants to buy a  Legacy command set for $210 at that clanwalter site and never receive it good luck.

There's no indication that clanwalter is remotely legitimate. The only photo shows a corner cafe.

If you insist on throwing away $210, I'll send you my address. At least you'll know where your money went.

The guy that just spent half an hour writing up how you can control MTH with an old CAB-1, but couldn't get a lashup (consist if you are a curmudgeon) made on a CAB-1 to work on his CAB-1L just noticed this on Mr. Muffins web page.

"Addresses 99 ENG (engine) and 99 TR (train) IDs"

The key point being as far as I recall, CAB-1 does TR1-9.

HustleDude is appropriately named as well, someone is getting the Hustle.

@TB440 posted:

https://clanwalter.com/product...gines-on-same-track/

https://hustledude.com/product...0-legacy-command-set

Like RickO said, that first link is a straight-up scam website.  Hustledude is local to me.  He doesn't have them.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

HustleDude is appropriately named as well, someone is getting the Hustle.

He's legit.  But he doesn't have them.  That store is primarily HO.

I guess I should have done some research before posting that. 

@TB440 posted:

I guess I should have done some research before posting that.

That's okay!  Every couple of weeks someone starts a thread saying the CAB-1L remote has been cancelled by Lionel. I guess it was just your turn this week!😉😉

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

So far I see the new MTH being a boutique special run outfit who's major product is a different paint job for a limited number of products.  I have to go along with the opinion that they're not showing me much right now.  I'm hearing rumors that it make take a year or more to get more electronics for repairing existing product, I can freely order that stuff from Lionel right now.  MTH has also jacked the price on the non-existent electronic boards for repair shops, something that is also a bit vexing.

I'm really glad you said this and not me. If I said this you would have chewed me out! 😉😁

@Madockawando posted:

That's okay!  Every couple of weeks someone starts a thread saying the CAB-1L remote has been cancelled by Lionel. I guess it was just your turn this week!😉😉

Then recently someone posted a thread saying the CAB1L command set is still available in the 2022 catalog, where do they get that info?

@Madockawando posted:

The CAB-1L command set is in the latest 2022 Lionel and will be available this year.  You should be able to pre order a set from your favorite dealer.

@Madockawando posted:

That's okay!  Every couple of weeks someone starts a thread saying the CAB-1L remote has been cancelled by Lionel. I guess it was just your turn this week!😉😉

Right, and every couple of weeks some one chimes in with misinformation like the cab1L command "set" is still being  produced.

On top of it,they think it has full access to Legacy specific features.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Then recently someone posted a thread saying the CAB1L command set is still available in the 2022 catalog, where do they get that info?

He may need a new prescription as you suggested.

Are we having fun yet?

@RickO posted:

Right, and every couple of weeks some one chimes in with misinformation like the cab1L command "set" is still being  produced.

On top of it,they think it has full access to Legacy specific features.

I just read the OGR duty roster, it turns out is YOUR turn next week to start the next "Hey gang! Did you hear that Lionel cancelled the CAB-1L remote!"  thread.

As for the command set... The wonderful fact is that Lionel is still producing the CAB-1L remote and a command base that will work with it: the BASE-3. That is is the only point that matters.

Command base, command set, at this point it's semantics.  Now go call Henning's Trains and get your order in for your CAB-1L remote and BASE-3 pronto!  And buy yourself some nice Lionel Legacy Locomotives while your on the phone with Henning's and put a smile back on your face not be such a sour sport.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Then recently someone posted a thread saying the CAB1L command set is still available in the 2022 catalog, where do they get that info?

Hmm... Where did they get that info? Probably the same place that you got your information that the range of Lionel's Universal Remote was no more than 4 feet. 😁

Anyway, I strongly encourage everyone to get your orders in for Lionel's CAB-1L  hand held remote and the BASE-3 that works with it. There are lots of excellent dealers to order from and I recommend Henning 's Trains be one of the dealers that you consider.