New Lionel Base3 transition thoughts for my layout

Truthfully, I'd grab a beer, pull up a chair, and turn on the TV.  I doubt you want to be one of the first adopters of this technology.  The chances of them getting it "all right" in the first couple of iterations is really small, like non-existent!  There's really nothing on the horizon you can't do with your existing Legacy control system, don't be in such a hurry to be Guinea pig!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Truthfully, I'd grab a beer, pull up a chair, and turn on the TV.  I doubt you want to be one of the first adopters of this technology.  The chances of them getting it "all right" in the first couple of iterations is really small, like non-existent!  There's really nothing on the horizon you can't do with your existing Legacy control system, don't be in such a hurry to be Guinea pig!

I'm diving in.  No guts, no glory.  But then again I have a LUG meeting to prep for so....

@MartyE posted:

I'm diving in.  No guts, no glory.  But then again I have a LUG meeting to prep for so....

Better you than me Marty, but I will be carefully listening at the LUG meeting to see what you find!

That’s a good Question, I’m a player, however it’s not going to be available for almost a year. I’m sure there’s going to be a lot of discussion of this new Control system, positive and negative, but, I think the positives will Win. The present Legacy system has been around 16 years, so look at it like this, $450 divided by 16 = $28 a year, and Lionel repairs it free, that’s a great deal in itself. So, early order price, $440, a little Class “101” on how to use the system, and then the fun begins. We should be Optimistic about this control system as it’s going to make our hobby much more fun. How many of you guys have an Amazon Alexa?, turn on the lights, turn on the TV, Turn on the Trains??? I look at the glass optimistically and see it’s Half Full, rather than it’s Half empty. I think Lionel keeps moving the Goal Post, that’s a company I have a lot of confidence in, Thank you Lionel Team. Happy Decision Making Everyone

@leapinlarry posted:

We should be Optimistic about this control system as it’s going to make our hobby much more fun. How many of you guys have an Amazon Alexa?, turn on the lights, turn on the TV, Turn on the Trains??? I look at the glass optimistically and see it’s Half Full, rather than it’s Half empty. I think Lionel keeps moving the Goal Post, that’s a company I have a lot of confidence in, Thank you Lionel Team. Happy Decision Making Everyone

Larry,

Keep up the optimism.  But, your impression of Cab-3 is off slightly.  It's not a new control system.  There's precious little pushing forward here.  Instead it's a whole lot of consolidating the past.

To be fair though the smartphone app (Cab-3 remote) does have potential for real innovation.  I truly hope it comes.  The first app never went anywhere significant after the initial release.   The second one has done quite a bit better but is still not moving forward at anywhere near the same clip as 99.9% of all successful smartphone apps.

Does it need to? No.  But it's a wonderful canvas to add value and push the hobby forward.  Significant progress has to be expected, and needs to be planned and executed successfully, for that to happen.

A weak outcome like that seen by the first one would be hard to overcome.  Plodding along like the second one is now doing will not help progress either.

Third time's the charm? Yes, let's hope so.

Mike

From what I have seen and after watching the videos. this cab 3 looks like it does, for now at least the same as my 990 system does (except the four digit addressing). it just puts the lcs pdi ports and wifi along with the 990 all in one neat package.

yes it now has the ability to run lionchief and lionchief plus/2.0 plus engines from the remotes. those are engines I don't buy though so that is not a must have for me. glad they are doing it though.

my biggest concern is two fold. one being the way forward to control the trains and accessories is going phone/app based.

while this will allow more customization to the control screens. I never thought I would be saying this,but I just prefer the tactile feel of a handheld remote. especially for speed control.

second concern is if new control features/icons are added to the cab3 app. this could limit the cab2 too not be able the get all the new functions or cab3 features.

plus now that the cab2 is being discontinued this will now drive up the market price of existing cab2 remotes if one desires to have more than one or two remotes.at least in the short term.

one last question is lionel making one last batch of 990 or 993 with cab2 remotes? most online retailers say they are on backorder. if so does this mean they are awaiting the last run of remotes  or is this it for the physical cab2?

I am at some point going to get the new cab3 base,but as john said let lionel work out all the bugs first and then I will get one. for now I am going to at least try to get two more cab2 remotes for my collection.

Since the BASE3 is not being delivered for a year, one can only hope that they will have something to sell in the meantime.  It's not good business to not have a control system to sell your high end product, that does put a crimp in sales.

Up until recently the #993 expansion set was still available, and perhaps still is.  I know the #990 command system has been MIA for a number of months except for some high priced eBay deals.

Actually, I'm amazed to see this one at a more "reasonable" price point on eBay, 40 minutes remaining...

The other couple are in the $550 and up range.

So are there different versions of the 990 system? Were there upgrades as time went on? I say this because, if one finds one at a show should he bite, or wait for Lionel's (hopefully) next shipment of 990s to our dealers?

There is only one type of #990 system, it consists of the #992 command base and the #991 CAB2 remote.  There is also the #993 expansion set that consists of the #991 CAB2 Remote and the #994 Legacy Charger.  Obviously, you need at one #992 command base, and you can have as many CAB2 remotes as you like.  The #994 is strictly a charging cradle for the #991 CAB2 remote.

OK Thanks again John for your help.

FWIW, that #990 system on eBay that I posted went for over $600 when the last 30 minutes expired, they're really selling at a premium!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, that #990 system on eBay that I posted went for over $600 when the last 30 minutes expired, they're really selling at a premium!

But....if you haven't had Legacy before....and aren't interested in Lionchief locos or apps.

Your gonna spend $600 on the base 3 and cab1L and be unable to access every Legacy specific feature aside from the quillable whistle.

I'd rather pay $600 for the cab2, but I'll see what Madockwando has to say

@Jeff B. Haertlein posted:

I say this because, if one finds one at a show should he bite, or wait for Lionel's (hopefully) next shipment of 990s to our dealers?

There will be no next shipment. Lionel has discontinued the 990.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, that #990 system on eBay that I posted went for over $600 when the last 30 minutes expired, they're really selling at a premium!

Another one is at $760 with over a day left.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, that #990 system on eBay that I posted went for over $600 when the last 30 minutes expired, they're really selling at a premium!

Just like when the TIU/Remote package was discontinued. Prices went nuts on the used market. Same thing is happening to the Legacy 990.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since the BASE3 is not being delivered for a year, one can only hope that they will have something to sell in the meantime.  It's not good business to not have a control system to sell your high end product, that does put a crimp in sales.

That is what I find totally mind blowing........

Should we start a "wish" thread for CAB3.  A few extras should be do-able in software.   Thread has been started....

I like the new cab3 but I won’t be ordering one this time. I’m certainly not going to obsolete my current legacy base, cab2 and cab1L from my layout just to stay on top of new items coming out. My current system allows me to do anything I can imagine with all my trains. Lionel certainly does need to continue going forward as the are now doing so to expand their customer base that hasn’t even received their first train set yet.

I do not see an antenna attached to the new Base3 unit.

Has anyone heard an explanation? On my Legacy base, since mounted on the side of my layout, I have an extension antenna connected via a cable and have the actual antenna sitting between a couple of buildings:

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Truthfully, I'd grab a beer, pull up a chair, and turn on the TV.  I doubt you want to be one of the first adopters of this technology.  The chances of them getting it "all right" in the first couple of iterations is really small, like non-existent!  There's really nothing on the horizon you can't do with your existing Legacy control system, don't be in such a hurry to be Guinea pig!

In this case - I second that! I still think they need a new updated cab 2.  As, far as I'm concerned! IMHO -The phone app - Just doesn't have the feel of controlling trains. What parts aren't availablefor a new cab2?  The LCD screens? - The digitizer?  (The backlighting was never great. As, the ones I've opened seem to fail at the contact points for the backlights) The CPU?

So, let me get this right. I went from 299.00 for a handheld with base. To 499.00 for a base that requires use of my own phone? Absolutely, insane in my books.

@shawn posted:

In this case - I second that! I still think they need a new updated cab 2.  As, far as I'm concerned! IMHO -The phone app - Just doesn't have the feel of controlling trains. What parts aren't availablefor a new cab2?  The LCD screens? - The digitizer?  (The backlighting was never great. As, the ones I've opened seem to fail at the contact points for the backlights) The CPU?

So, let me get this right. I went from 299.00 for a handheld with base. To 499.00 for a base that requires use of my own phone? Absolutely, insane in my books.

Why don’t you watch “Demos with Dave” on Facebook or YouTube today at 6pm and ask. He’s already said on a few threads and video what’s up. Maybe if you ask again he’ll go into more details.

@stangtrain posted:

I am using the Legacy base with Cab 2 (also Cab 1L) and all is working well.

I have the "Y" DBL cable attached to the Legacy base which provides the following:

    1 - Serial data and COM wire connected to a TMCC AMC (6-14183) Accessory Motor Controller that I use to control my              DC turntable motor.

    2 - Using a DB9 RS232 Serial Female Adapter, I attached a wire to Pin 5 to provide a connection for running a ground                  plane wire under my upper level tracks and also over my three SC-2s. This eliminated signal problems I was having.

I have three SC-2s which get their signal from the Legacy base.

My guess is that I will need to replace the TMCC AMC (6-14183) with an LCS AMC2 Accessory Motor Controller. According to the instruction booklet, it can be programmed to run a DC motor.

To answer your original questions you only need a SER2 to go with your Base3. This will give you the serial data you need to run your AMC. As far as ground goes Dave stated on another thread you can use ground from basically anywhere. LCS PDI Bus, earth ground, usb ground they were stated to be electrically all the same.

Mth has stated they may have a new wifi handheld remote in the works. While it is still far off it is still being developed by mike wolf. Mike has always listened to his consumer base and his older dcs customers who just prefer a tactile remote spoke up. So it looks like mike was listening again.

Dave alluded to possibly a new cab3 remote in the distant future. If we as legacy users use our voice to let lionel know this would be a win win for both parties. Let them know it would sell as well as the cab2. Then if you have optimism and just wait lionel r&d out. I truly belive a cab3 remote will come at some point in the future. Ryan and dave may seem slow to listen,but I belive they are listening and looking at the market place.

@zhubl posted:

To answer your original questions you only need a SER2 to go with your Base3. This will give you the serial data you need to run your AMC. As far as ground goes Dave stated on another thread you can use ground from basically anywhere. LCS PDI Bus, earth ground, usb ground they were stated to be electrically all the same.

There ya go - add a serial 2 for 60.00 and the above poster is right back to where he was with his old setup! - $560.00

What does he get for all of this? The ability to run 3 older Bluetooth engines and some older RF ones. Least - not forget The LCS port.

IMHO, the capability of cross capability should have been built into those older engines. Instead of basically creating 3 different control systems.

Ok, so as a legacy user what does the new base 3 do for me? Force, me into a non cab 2 style or cab1L. If my remote dies? Force, me into using my phone.

yes, I could use a iPad - certainly it’s not like a handheld!!!!

Which, I absolutely hate! How , long does my phone last on a charge. How, many recharges playing with my trains. I should hit battery half life real soon.

Cab 2, on regular battery’s had a pretty decent life - before battery changes.

lionel !!! Redesigning the base - I can live with. I might Even be able to live with the price point - if my older base dies…But, no replacement for cab2?

Frankly, I played with the phone app - Bluetooth during the holidays. It is permanently relagated for the Christmas tree.

The phone app - is a great option - not a replacement for a physical remote!

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

Dave alluded to possibly a new cab3 remote in the distant future. If we as legacy users use our voice to let lionel know this would be a win win for both parties. Let them know it would sell as well as the cab2. Then if you have optimism and just wait lionel r&d out. I truly belive a cab3 remote will come at some point in the future. Ryan and dave may seem slow to listen,but I belive they are listening and looking at the market place.

I personally won't hold my breath for a new hardware remote.  I think it's in Lionel's best interest to let someone else make the hardware and they develop the APP.  While I love my remote and will baby it for the foreseeable future it's just too darn easy to add a feature and map a button on an app to make that feature work.  It's also a lot easier not to have to design, build, and service remotes.

I believe Dave and Ryan listen to everything but like any business has to determine what is feasible based on technology, company, and consumer.  I for one think if an integrated hardware platform like a gaming control could be mapped, and it's on Dave's radar then that will solve a lot of remote angst.  Until then I will take good care of my Cab2s and transition further into the APP world.

@shawn posted:

In this case - I second that! I still think they need a new updated cab 2.  As, far as I'm concerned! IMHO -The phone app - Just doesn't have the feel of controlling trains. What parts aren't availablefor a new cab2?  The LCD screens? - The digitizer?  (The backlighting was never great. As, the ones I've opened seem to fail at the contact points for the backlights) The CPU?

So, let me get this right. I went from 299.00 for a handheld with base. To 499.00 for a base that requires use of my own phone? Absolutely, insane in my books.

I was talking to someone who works with Lionel and was a Beta tester for the CAB3.  It's the sensor dot touchscreen that is the issue with the CAB2's.  It's one of the first touch technologies, now way outdated and unavailable.  It would cost too much to replace with today's touchscreen.  But Lionel has a large supply of parts to handle repairs for a couple years, so no need to panic buy these remotes.  He told me the CAB3 worked really nice!  Anyone with a CAB2 setup can keep everything as is, as Lionel will be servicing the 990 sets for the foreseeable future.  Don't panic! LOL.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

I was talking to someone who works with Lionel and was a Beta tester for the CAB3.  It's the sensor dot touchscreen that is the issue with the CAB2's.  It's one of the first touch technologies, now way outdated and unavailable.  It would cost too much to replace with today's touchscreen.  But Lionel has a large supply of parts to handle repairs for a couple years, so no need to panic buy these remotes.  He told me the CAB3 worked really nice!  Anyone with a CAB2 setup can keep everything as is, as Lionel will be servicing the 990 sets for the foreseeable future.  Don't panic! LOL.

I personally think that Dave has done as much as he could to make sure that folks with Cab2s and Cab1Ls can continue to use them.  After watching last nights Demos with Dave, I can tell he was passionate about this project and has tried to keep as much Legacy hardware relevant.  I can't wait to see more of what the system can do.

"Mth has stated they may have a new wifi handheld remote in the works. "

First it would be good to have a website, an email and phone number for customer service.  Maybe even a catalog. 

@Landsteiner posted:

"Mth has stated they may have a new wifi handheld remote in the works. "

First it would be good to have a website, an email and phone number for customer service.  Maybe even a catalog.

Thanks for reminding me, Dave mentioned last night on "Demos with Dave" that the Base3 will NOT come with a paper manual but will be online to keep it current and up to date.  He said it will launch when the Base3 ships.  I would assume there will be a "Quick Start Guide" with the Base3 but that's just me thinking out loud.

The one glaring hole with both MTH and Lionel at this point is that their next generation is something we know only too well in the software industry, vaporware, in that neither Legacy 3.0 or the new MTH will be available anytime soon, it could be many months or even a year given current circumstances. With MTH it sounds like some of this is blowback from the MTH re-arrangement (or whatever you want to call it) and the twin evils of covid and the supply chain issues and they had likely stopped production on the older DCS system with this in mind. We don't know with Lionel why they discontinued the 990 legacy control system before 3.0 came out, but I suspect some of it was they hoped to have 3.0 ready by now, already had shut down legacy 2.0 production, and some of the same factors hurt them like, ie covid and supply chain. 

The net result is both of these, even when they eventually come out, are gonna likely be in short supply.  The people this hurts the most are going to be people, like myself, building layouts who are planning to use one or both systems. In my case it likely isn't a big deal, going to wire for the systems , going to use block wiring anyway, and will run conventional until the new systems come out and I can install them; and given the glacial pace of my getting it built, could be when I lay the golden spike they will be out there. But for some it could be a significant problem, especially given that the used market is kind of insane at the moment. I realize it isn't like there is a hundred thousand or even 10,000 people in this boat, but it is an issue.

As I read people's views, it occurs to me that the Base 3/app system isn't primarily directed at people who are currently happy with LionChief or the Legacy/TMCC systems. It's simply the way forward into the future that will be primarily of interest to newer hobbyists who don't already have a lot of locomotives.  It's a baby step forward, acknowledging the difficulties of keeping systems like this in production over decades, and not intended to supplant Legacy/TMCC/LionChief in any way.  It's going to make it possible to integrate those systems for those interested, but it's mainly about the future, not the present.  It is less than ideal to have a remote available (cab-1L) with no base for a period of many months or even a year, but perhaps there simply weren't any good options.  Sort of like what we're doing with our emergency room right now. No good options.  We're picking amongst the least bad options.  Maybe Lionel is doing the same?

People looking to make X work with Y

Price Gouging on discontinued command power and control systems from Lionel

Price Gouging on discontinued command power and control systems from MTH

Uncertain future for those who don't have command systems of either type

More certain future for those who stockpiled

Only certainty is for those buying and running conventional

This seems like the biggest problem (availability) facing the hobby with few real answers or priorities

No?

John

Over inflated pricing yes, gouging no.  These items are non essential.  No harm no foul.  People will pay what they are willing to spend.  Buyers just need to be smart.

Yep, an item is only worth what a buyer will pay, not a penny more.

For John and Marty I clarified what I meant.  "Availability"

John

Indeed, availability will be a factor, especially if the new systems are significantly delayed.

I am a happy CAB2 Legacy user and will buy the new Base 3 - but not without some scowl as I see the future of 'sunsetting' the handheld remotes in favor of smartphone apps.  I had considered the LCS wifi module addition to CAB2 base but without a viable android app now and the pricepoint difference between Base 3 and the Wifi module I think Lionel kind of knows how to sell this....$$

The new base 3 makes sense. If someone starts with Lionchief they now have an upgrade path. They can get into the hobby more and buy the premium legacy engines. Add a base 3 and they have one remote to control them all. Users are now encouraged to upgrade. For existing customers, like me, who only have tmcc and legacy, the cab 3 gives me nothing. If the new base will allow for new features that legacy can't do, I may get it in the future. As of today, we only know the base 3 allows 4 digit addresses for one engine and most likely new releases moving forward.

When talking about the remote, the app does nothing for me. Apps are touch controls. Touch controls are not as precise as a physical controller. Touch screens rely on the oils in your skin to trigger. There are many times I've had to tap a button multiple times to trigger a control on an app. I don't want something that is non precise when controlling a moving object. I understand apps offer a lot of benefits. They are cheaper to produce and update easily. But it also has cons as well.  You have to take your eyes off the layout to use the app. A Ios update or Android update can cause the app to malfunction or not work. The touchscreen may not read your touch as quickly as needed. If apps were that much better microsoft, nintendo, playstation, would have ditched their controllers years ago. I can only assume Lionel went to the app for cost. Not to be cheap, but to roll the product out within a given budget. In time I hope they bring out a new physical remote.  Until then I plan to just watch the show. The new base gives me no new functionality so I'll spend my money elsewhere.  That will give the new base time to get field tested and hopefully a new remote instead of an app.

@Joe Fermani posted:

When talking about the remote, the app does nothing for me. Apps are touch controls. Touch controls are not as precise as a physical controller. Touch screens rely on the oils in your skin to trigger. There are many times I've had to tap a button multiple times to trigger a control on an app. I don't want something that is non precise when controlling a moving object. I understand apps offer a lot of benefits. They are cheaper to produce and update easily. But it also has cons as well.  You have to take your eyes off the layout to use the app. A Ios update or Android update can cause the app to malfunction or not work. The touchscreen may not read your touch as quickly as needed. If apps were that much better microsoft, nintendo, playstation, would have ditched their controllers years ago. I can only assume Lionel went to the app for cost. Not to be cheap, but to roll the product out within a given budget. In time I hope they bring out a new physical remote.  Until then I plan to just watch the show. The new base gives me no new functionality so I'll spend my money elsewhere.  That will give the new base time to get field tested and hopefully a new remote instead of an app.

If O Gauge had as much interest as N Scale and HO there would probably be open source developers like the latter have with DCC++

For example:  DCC++ while primarily controlled with apps such as Engine Driver for Android and Wi Throttle for iOS also have people developing hardware throttles to control it.

http://www.trainelectronics.co...+/Throttle/index.htm

Including using a Sony handheld remote control for a throttle.

http://www.trainelectronics.co...IRThrottle/index.htm

John