Hi all
This may have been previously addressed. If so, apologies. Can Lionel engines labeled as “036 minimum” run on traditional Lionel tubular 031 track? Intuitavily, it doesn’t but I heard it will run from a friend. Wondering . . . .
Thanks
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If 36 inches is the specified as the minimum by the manufacturer; 31 is less than that and so the simple and proper answer is "no".
Consumers tend to oversimplify the problem by thinking the minimum specifies the ability for it to track around a simple singular curve piece of that size or greater. What is forgotten are more complex track scenarios, such as S curves and clearance for switch machines in various configurations which the manufacturer tests.
To further compound the matter, there were times when the number of curve sizes was more limited (not as many graduations) and so the minimum rating may only reflect the smallest curve size fully navigable available at the time. (This isn't necessarily an issue with your query as 31 and 36 goes back to the postwar days).
Your best bet (if the minimum is close to your desired value), is to actually ask your LHS to let you take the piece and guide it over some sample track of that size for you to make the determination. An alternative would be to ask someone, say on this forum, if a particular model will run over a particular set of track configurations.
Fred:
Not 100% analogous but; I used 0-27 track and switches on my entire layout yet regularly operate engines that are listed as a minimum 0-31.
That said; BMORAN4's response is spot on; i.e. test before you buy. I have done exactly as he mentions and asked hobby shop owners to assemble several pieces of track and a switch on the floor of the store so I can be certain an engine will clear before I buy it. Generally you need do this only once for a particular type of engine as similar models from the same manufacturer should work if one does.
Curt
fsileo posted:Hi all
This may have been previously addressed. If so, apologies. Can Lionel engines labeled as “036 minimum” run on traditional Lionel tubular 031 track? Intuitavily, it doesn’t but I heard it will run from a friend. Wondering . . . .
Thanks
Certainly not universally. Case in point is the Lionel Hogwart's Express. It's rated at O36 and will NOT run on O31 track, the pilot wheels hit the steam cylinders.
FSILEO,
The reality of the situation is that some Engines and Rolling stock will and some will not. The best way to see if a particular 036 rated Engine will run on your 031 or 027 Track is to actually try it yourself, on the particular track you are using, and see what that particular engine actually does.
Still the best thing to due with any Engine & it's rolling stock is run it on the mfg's listed min Track curvature.
PCRR/Dave
The numbers 036, 031, 027 , 072, 054 and so forth are actual measurements - not "specifications". It's geometry and physics. If the loco says 036, it means 036 - that's a physically larger curve than 031.
Now, the makers tend to rate these things conservatively at times, and there are pieces that can squeak around tighter standard-spec curves that what is stated on the box, but not many. Physics can't be fudged, but a stated number can be.
Or maybe Lionel is just pushing 036 track . . . . .
Thanks all
When they specify the minimum size it means a lot of things, it means that it can actually traverse the curves without derailing, but it also can mean, for example, that the overhang on the engine is not likely to hit things adjacent to the track, or bind in certain circumstances. a 2.5 " difference in radius should make much of a difference, but if the O36 was already a tight tolerance where, for example, the truck just misses something on the frame or the drivers (if steam) won't bind, then O31 likely will fail. If someone you know has extra O31 tubular track, you could create a circle and see if it can navigate it (if you have the engine), or if you a buying it locally if the store has O31 curves ask them to try it through there.
The one thing is even if Engine A can work through O31, Engine B might not, I can pretty much guarantee you that Lionel (In this case) when they specify that don't have some scientific specs where all the engines are the same, it will vary between diesels and steam and between engines of the same type (IE diesel to diesel, steam to steam), so your best bet is always to test the engine or give a specific model on here or elsewhere and ask if anyone has tried it), O36 can either be a 'suggested' minimum or "no way in heck you could run it less than this".
While we're on the subject, anybody know why is Ross and Gargraves O31 is a larger diameter then O31 Lionel tubular? Is it actually O36?
Lantom posted:While we're on the subject, anybody know why is Ross and Gargraves O31 is a larger diameter then O31 Lionel tubular? Is it actually O36?
You should probably follow internet etiquette and create a new topic for this question, but to answer your question, it is simply because of slight inconsistencies of how manufacturers measure (center rail to center rail, outer extreme to outer extreme, inner to inner and so on). This is another reason to simply test before you buy.
Often a locomotive rated for 31" really won't work well on 31. It may throw traction tires ( my articulated steamers rated for 31" do this) and often they look really out of place on such small diameter turns. Even my Rail King Dash 8's dislike 31" curves, even though they are rated for it. But some engines run 31" just fine, especially shorter locomotives. I think a short Lionel , even rated for 36", would probably run on 31". But it would be good to test it first, and long enough to see if the traction tires will stay on.
Great, helpful comments. I strongly recommend that even if the manufacturer says an engine can negotiate 031 curves, if you have any doubts (maybe because the engine looks like it might be too big to handle such tight curves), then, if possible, take it for a test drive (preferably on your layout) or ask knowledgeable people (Forum members) about it.
Here's an example why. I have a beautiful MTH Railking smoking diesel with great realistic diesel sounds. I bought it from a local train store about 3 or 3 years ago. The packaging and store owner said it is fine on 031 curves. Now watch the video below closely as it goes through my 022 switch tracks (which have 031 curves):
Have you ever heard of the dance known as "the bump?" When you watch the above video carefully, the engine does the bump when it goes through the switch tracks. It makes contact with and nudges the plastic switch machine cover.
It turns out that even at high speed the engine won't derail when it goes through the switches. I'm sure that there is no such nudging when this MTH engines goes through MTH switch tracks.
Initially, I was very disappointed when I noticed my engine nudge my Lionel post war 022 switches, thinking that I'm bound to get derailments. But, I've now run it through hundreds of switch tracks on my layout without any derailments, and I'm fine with it. It's my engine that does "the bump," a rock and roll dance I love to do with a beautiful woman.
I guess it can be said that this MTH locomotive barely qualifies as being able to negotiate post war 022 switches that have 031 curves.
Yup, I have the same “bump” on MTH engine GE ES44AC. And I have two of them! Not good.
Update for all, with specifics. A friend of has Lionel’s subway set 6-31751. R27’s (Green). From 2008 I believe. Legacy. The Lionel manual for them says minimum radius is 036. He successfully ran them on K-Line’s 031 shadow rail. Not sure what this means. Like I said, is Lionel pushing their 036 track? Or are they incorrect without knowing it? Or is this just an anomolity? We may never know.
P.S. just got the above info tonight.
gunrunnerjohn posted:fsileo posted:Hi all
This may have been previously addressed. If so, apologies. Can Lionel engines labeled as “036 minimum” run on traditional Lionel tubular 031 track? Intuitavily, it doesn’t but I heard it will run from a friend. Wondering . . . .
Thanks
Certainly not universally. Case in point is the Lionel Hogwart's Express. It's rated at O36 and will NOT run on O31 track, the pilot wheels hit the steam cylinders.
The engine will not do O31. However the cars can.
Ask and test are good policy.
fsileo posted:Update for all, with specifics. A friend of has Lionel’s subway set 6-31751. R27’s (Green). From 2008 I believe. Legacy. The Lionel manual for them says minimum radius is 036. He successfully ran them on K-Line’s 031 shadow rail. Not sure what this means. Like I said, is Lionel pushing their 036 track? Or are they incorrect without knowing it? Or is this just an anomolity? We may never know.
As Lionel is no longer cataloging O31 tubular track, O36 is the new reference point for minimum curve for O Gauge. That's what's included in the starter sets. A new person with no previous experience getting into the hobby would unlikely have any knowledge of O31.
That doesn't mean some stuff couldn't go around O31 or even O27, just the advertised minimum is O36. Back in the olden days Mantua/Tyco's HO 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's were advertised as 18" minimum radius, but they could go around 15" radius.
Rusty
fsileo posted:Yup, I have the same “bump” on MTH engine GE ES44AC. And I have two of them! Not good.
On the O22 switches one may have to remove them and switch the switch machine to the outside. But test first so this does not create more issues!
The K-line switch used lower switch machines, so that may be a help. Also Ross now makes a O22 type.
But the best is ask and test before buying.
Thanks Rusty, When did Lionel stop 031?
Rusty Traque posted:As Lionel is no longer cataloging O31 tubular track, O36 is the new reference point for minimum curve for O Gauge. That's what's included in the starter sets. A new person with no previous experience getting into the hobby would unlikely have any knowledge of O31.
Rusty
Rusty, Lionel has O31 Fastrack and switches in their latest catalog - however, you are correct that Lionel is moving away from tubular:
http://www.lionel.com/products...urved-track-6-37103/
http://www.lionel.com/products...-right-hand-6-81253/
OK, so why does Lionel say minimum curve is 036 if the engine runs on 031 (I have my friend’s video confirming this - got it last night) and they still make 031? I just don’t get it.
The manufacturer is not being maliciously deceitful. This was all explained in the very first response to your query:
bmoran4 posted:If 36 inches is the specified as the minimum by the manufacturer; 31 is less than that and so the simple and proper answer is "no".
Consumers tend to oversimplify the problem by thinking the minimum specifies the ability for it to track around a simple singular curve piece of that size or greater. What is forgotten are more complex track scenarios, such as S curves and clearance for switch machines in various configurations which the manufacturer tests.
To further compound the matter, there were times when the number of curve sizes was more limited (not as many graduations) and so the minimum rating may only reflect the smallest curve size fully navigable available at the time. (This isn't necessarily an issue with your query as 31 and 36 goes back to the postwar days).
Your best bet (if the minimum is close to your desired value), is to actually ask your LHS to let you take the piece and guide it over some sample track of that size for you to make the determination. An alternative would be to ask someone, say on this forum, if a particular model will run over a particular set of track configurations.
My question is not about whether a specific engine can run on 031. I don’t have one in mind. It is more general. In the past, if I saw 036 I dismissed buying it since I have 031. Was that in error? I passed on many engines that could have run on my 031. That has me annoyed. The subway set that I quoted above. I would have bought it when it first came out, at a discounted price from list. Now, that set is selling above list.
bmoran4 posted:Rusty Traque posted:As Lionel is no longer cataloging O31 tubular track, O36 is the new reference point for minimum curve for O Gauge. That's what's included in the starter sets. A new person with no previous experience getting into the hobby would unlikely have any knowledge of O31.
Rusty
Rusty, Lionel has O31 Fastrack and switches in their latest catalog - however, you are correct that Lionel is moving away from tubular:
http://www.lionel.com/products...urved-track-6-37103/
http://www.lionel.com/products...-right-hand-6-81253/
Maybe so. But, it seems pretty clear that Lionel is using O36 as their minimum standard nowadays.
I once ran a postwar Train Master on O27 curves, even though it was sold as an "O gauge"(meaning O31) loco. Doesn't mean Lionel trying to mislead anyone.
Rusty
I don’t think Lionel is trying to mislead anyone. I just want accurate info. If it runs on 031, they should be saying that
A manufacturers specification comes from testing that is more complex than simply navigating an oval of a certain size. It also includes more complex situations with S curves, switch machine clearances and so an and so forth. As such, something rated for O36 may successfully navigate a simple O31 oval, but collide catastrophicly with a switch machine or not have the truck rotational span to pass through an S curve or so on and so forth. Thus it gets rated O36 as it passes the oval, switch machine, S curve and other tests at that curvature.
To put it another way, imagine you purchased a locomotive rated O31, but it can't navigate your layout's S curve or go through it's switches? You'd be unhappy it was rated O31 and not O36.
fsileo posted:I don’t think Lionel is trying to mislead anyone. I just want accurate info. If it runs on 031, they should be saying that
It is impossible to provide accurate specifications on minimum curve - there are SO many different track variations, styles, manufacturers, etc. If Lionel says 0-36, that is the minimum they make nowadays. It may work great on your layout with 0-31 Lionel Tubular Track but, perhaps due to different dimensions or geometry, MTH 0-31 track may cause it to derail (some manuf. measure the track curves from center rail to center rail, some others go from the outer rails).
They may go higher to offer the most realistic expectation of successful operation. For example - I just bought one of the new Legacy Mikados. 0-54 curves is the cataloged minimum but it runs fine on 0-42, and even tolerates 0-31. I'm using Lionel tubular track. Just because it runs fine on smaller than specified track on my layout doesn't mean it might on yours. The goal is that, universally, it should work on 0-54.
Adding on to what the previous two posters have said, as has been pointed out, there are many different track scenerios, involving different track arrangements, different track manufacturers, different types of switches, etc. There are engines that will operate on one person's "0-31" layout, but not on another person's "0-31" layout. This can happen because the tolerances may beome very fine (and the tighter the radius, the finer the tolerances), and variations exist in track geometry, switch design, and other factors, all of which may or may not create a specific problem in various cases.
Thus, as others have noted, the only way to be sure an engine will work is to test it on your particular layout. The tighter the radius, the more this is necessary, because as the radius decreases, the envelope is being pushed more, so to speak. I think Lionel is being wise to state 0-36 minimum in many cases. Being conservative in that specification means there will be fewer disappointments in the accomodation of engines to layouts.
Think about it. If Lionel stated that engines could handle tighter radius turns, which an engine may be able to do in certain circumstances, but if fact pushing the engine to that minimum, while working for some folks, nonetheless resulted in many cases where the engine would not work for other folks, where would Lionel be? They'd have a lot of irate customers mad because their engine would not work on their 0-31 radius layout, when Lionel said it would. Certainly the far wiser thing for a manufacturer to do is to be conservative in stating required radius turns for their engines, and not create unrealistic expections on the part of the customers.
To clarify one further point, O36 is not Lionel's current smallest curve - it is O31. Track and Power list a full line of O31 Fastrack curves and switches. In addition, the most recent Catalog has many O31 offerings including:
Another thing to remember that hasn't been brought up here yet is yes the locomotive can do tighter than listed curves, but it may not be able to pull anything behind it. I believe the 2 truck Shays are known for this issue. They can really take O31 curves, but if anything is coupled to it, that car will derail on anything smaller than O36 (And some really light cars will derail on O36.), so O36 is listed as the min radius of the locomotive.
Also, again with track geometry, the VL Big Boy is listed at O72. The locomotive it self will do O54 with ease, but the tender will only take O63, barely. Throw an O54 S curve in and the Big Boy will most times climb out or bind. The tender will not take a O63 S curve without derailing. So O72 is the min curve listed.
Now my K-Line Big Boy is listed at O31 and takes O27 just fine. The MTH DL109 is listed at O45 I think, but it does O36 just fine. Looks out of place, but it'll do it. The MTH PRR T-1 Duplex is listed at O72, but I had it run on O48 curves. It wasn't happy, but it did it, and it could fly on O54 without issues, but there were no S curves which could mess it up.
So in the end, you have to try it.
In discussion with MTH engineers (I assume that it would apply to other vendors), the rated curve is for a complex set of turnouts and not just a straight curve. I have found that usually engines and their consists will negotiate a simple curve one size down. The MTH WM Shay is the only one of 50 engines (Lionel, MTH, 3rd Rail, and SMR) I have purchased that has to stay on its O54 curves. All my O72 engines can run on my Ross O64 curves (Big Boys (MTH and Lionel), 3rd Rail 2900 class SF, MTH NYC Dryfuss with extended tender, and MTH Allegheny. My MTH GG1 also rated for the O72 dia curve runs on my O54 loops without issues. It goes down to even the O31 curves for my Alco S2s rated for O31 which ran well on my O27 loop. The guidance others have stated is important. Your LHS has various radius curves. Test your engine to see if it will run on the diameter you want to utilize. My MTH B&O Mikado (rated for O42) does derail on my O72 turnout; however, that is more a function of my poor track work than the geometry of the Mikado. Issue is still not resolved. I have the 21 " NH black Weaver cars (rated O42) derailing on my O54 track work (Issue with track work on my lift bridge) as well as an incompatibility with my MTH NH ABA F7s couplers. Putting an REA 50B express reefer fixed the coupler issue that resurrected itself when I added an MTH RPO car (even after dremelling the bottom of the vestibule that hung up on the coupler.) I ended up cutting the button uncouplers off as well as wire closing them). I took the bumpers off of my Oriental Express passenger cars to change the min dia curve from O72 to O42. I have expressed my efforts min diameter curves to suggest that even the most diligent review may require modifications after you have the consist on your layout. Good luck and do not be afraid to try,
Thanks everyone. All interesting & informative posts.
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