Can You Help Me Identify and Find?

Lionel 6-38521

http://www.lionel.com/products...stripe-4839-6-38521/

bmoran4 posted:

Lionel 6-38521

http://www.lionel.com/products...stripe-4839-6-38521/

That's it!  Can or Pole motors, right?  Now...on to trying to find one!

Thanks, Ponz

Can motors

For what it's worth, my Postwar early 1950s Lionel Brunswick Green 5 stripe GG1 does great on my 031 curves and 022 switches. Don't know how it would do on regular O27 curves and switches.

  The issues with semiscale GG-1s Ive had on 0-27 were a need to elongate the guide slots about 1/16", maybe less, to allow a tighter turn.(dremel grinder drum)

  Now because of the fixed coupler, the coupler knuckle sits well to the outside of center, and at an angle too far to the outside. Now the two couplers, car & loco, may bind left to right due to position and angle sharper than the GG was designed for.

  But a car with an articulated coupler, like a passenger car's can correct the bad angle because the articulation happens further forward on the car than a fixed coupler which has the same pivot point as the truck. It's tight, but the GG's pilot doesn't yank the cars off the curve anymore, nor does the pilot derail to the inside from a long train's weight. (I also increased the spring weight for more downforce... but that was more for a sharp grade transition )

  I use a caboose with an articulated coupler shank at each end of a freight train since a GG1 was designed with the thought of not needing a turntable to turn around for a reverse trip along a branch. A run around the cars during unloading instead, saved tons of time for them. I just applied the thought to freight as well; never checked for prototype accuracy on that though. 

  I'm thinking there was still a slight 0-27 turnout issue, but I haven't tried in about 5-6 years, and can't recall it because right this moment as I have a pounding headache from the 140lb dogs 24hr whining over a female being in heat. It might have just been the coupler issue being worse around turnout guide rails. I also have larger than 0-27 on outer loops so I just stick to the Super O where it runs best, looks best, with the Broadway Limited streamline cars.

     Brunswick was more likely to be freight than Tuskan, but a Brunswick with matching heavy Madisons is my favorite for moving passengers.

   Other new age semiscale options are RMT & Williams by Bachmann(if any are left). Can motors there also. Nobody does an open frame I know of.    Frank at Timco can fit a can motor to an old open frame truck by Lionel or Wlliams for you too.

    My fav has been a K-line (none here but Ive heard of zinc pest). It tracks so well I sold off my MPC Lionel (which was actually better than a few PW versions Gramps let us run "all willy nilly" (others required a soldiers attention before you could look at them close, let alone run them)).    The k-line has better detail and paint than others preceeding it.  I don't know if the present Lionel is the old K-line version or not. All are very similar and it takes a side by side comparison or a lot of detail knowledge to make a judgement what is what. (Williams used to have the name on the inside of the shell roof. MPC Lionel had a casting number. I haven't had the K-line apart except for one time and didn't notice. RMT...?? (likely lowest cost, same basic quality on electro&mechanicals from my one experience.)  

Adriatic posted:

  The issues with semiscale GG-1s Ive had on 0-27 were a need to elongate the guide slots about 1/16", maybe less, to allow a tighter turn.(dremel grinder drum)

  Now because of the fixed coupler, the coupler knuckle sits well to the outside of center, and at an angle too far to the outside. Now the two couplers, car & loco, may bind left to right due to position and angle sharper than the GG was designed for.

  But a car with an articulated coupler, like a passenger car's can correct the bad angle because the articulation happens further forward on the car than a fixed coupler which has the same pivot point as the truck. It's tight, but the GG's pilot doesn't yank the cars off the curve anymore, nor does the pilot derail to the inside from a long train's weight. (I also increased the spring weight for more downforce... but that was more for a sharp grade transition )

  I use a caboose with an articulated coupler shank at each end of a freight train since a GG1 was designed with the thought of not needing a turntable to turn around for a reverse trip along a branch. A run around the cars during unloading instead, saved tons of time for them. I just applied the thought to freight as well; never checked for prototype accuracy on that though. 

  I'm thinking there was still a slight 0-27 turnout issue, but I haven't tried in about 5-6 years, and can't recall it because right this moment as I have a pounding headache from the 140lb dogs 24hr whining over a female being in heat. It might have just been the coupler issue being worse around turnout guide rails. I also have larger than 0-27 on outer loops so I just stick to the Super O where it runs best, looks best, with the Broadway Limited streamline cars.

     Brunswick was more likely to be freight than Tuskan, but a Brunswick with matching heavy Madisons is my favorite for moving passengers.

   Other new age semiscale options are RMT & Williams by Bachmann(if any are left). Can motors there also. Nobody does an open frame I know of.    Frank at Timco can fit a can motor to an old open frame truck by Lionel or Wlliams for you too.

    My fav has been a K-line (none here but Ive heard of zinc pest). It tracks so well I sold off my MPC Lionel (which was actually better than a few PW versions Gramps let us run "all willy nilly" (others required a soldiers attention before you could look at them close, let alone run them)).    The k-line has better detail and paint than others preceeding it.  I don't know if the present Lionel is the old K-line version or not. All are very similar and it takes a side by side comparison or a lot of detail knowledge to make a judgement what is what. (Williams used to have the name on the inside of the shell roof. MPC Lionel had a casting number. I haven't had the K-line apart except for one time and didn't notice. RMT...?? (likely lowest cost, same basic quality on electro&mechanicals from my one experience.)  

Thanks for the good read.

I just ordered a K-line from Pat's Trains.  He assured me that I would like it better than a Weaver.  But now I'm a bit dubious since you mentioned "ZINK PEST".

I have a couple of Weaver Full Scale GG1s than run nicely on my outside curve, whereas any other cannot. The trucks on other brands do not articulate enough.  My curve radii are approximately in the low 50s, hand bent GarGraves.  They bind, ever so slightly around one of the four curves with the Weavers.  Do you think the shorties, Weaver vs and other, behave the same way - meaning better on curves?

Ponz

  Maybe.  It all comes down to the coupler being fixed solid on the long pilot truck and coupler size/pocket shape. The swing diameter being larger than an average car, increases the offset of the coupler pocket to the outside. If the pilot truck length from pocket to P.truck center axle is longer, the offset is greater to the outside.

Look at one car butted coupler to coupler to the engine from directly overhead while on your sharpest curve.. You'll be looking at the how far off the offset set is to kinda judge. ...you know what? Ive got photos from a previous topic on this for folks without one.

this is as far left(to the inside) as the two trucks can sit

this is the GG slightly turned the other way...not super relevant, but an illustration of seating possible on normal gauge curves, and super light one car load.  A light car is going to get dragged off.

here is the bind... the fast angle wheels small flanges don't like this. Larger flanges of flat post war wheels derail less. Note the size of the coupler and even replacement knuckles do vary.  It goes beyond just being metal or plastic too.

  The coupled max angle varies with the slight difference in coupler part sizes on motive and rolling stock over the decades by same and different manufacturers alike. This angle makes or breaks the fit within a given tracks diameter as well.  E.g. despite both having the the O clearance of 0-31, I have cars that cannot couple to the GG on 0-31 track. Other cars can actually make it with slight bind on 0-27; a big difference. Creative line up in the train gets me around it at times.

Another option might be wheels sprung to change gage under lateral pressure against the inside rail.  It works for steam with 6 flanged drivers, but they also have more weight and a more solid, fixed relationship to the weight, while a GG's weight sort of floats it's pressure around, the least pressure being on those pilot trucks.       I.e. they may be able to climb a rail easier as the shock absorbsion may increase chances on a flange edge getting a footing on traction vs tiny shocks shaking it off its footings before the flange can bite down good and climb.        The rear of the p.truck being fixed at the pivot  to the drive trucks means you'd have to spring the lead wheel as the rears position is limited by the drive truck's position/angle.

...kinda like mating body-mounted couplers to truck mounts, isn't it?

Great photos and very helpful. 

Mark in Oregon

The one closest to your 2011 set engine is the 2012 Penn Central version in Green

Moonman posted:

The one closest to your 2011 set engine is the 2012 Penn Central version in Green

@Moonman, the first reply actually has the classic Brunswick PRR scheme and is an exact match in every way - even issued issued the same year in the same catalog and everything and is only one model number off. Only difference is the shell.

bmoran4 posted:

Lionel 6-38521

http://www.lionel.com/products...stripe-4839-6-38521/

 

Strummer posted:

...kinda like mating body-mounted couplers to truck mounts, isn't it?

Great photos and very helpful. 

Mark in Oregon

Yes, it is similar to my point in the KD coupler thread.  Which also made me think that the short shank KaDee or Scale City dummy couplers which mate to lobster claws would be a way to improve the situation here if a person was willing to put the effort into mounting it in place of the fixed coupler and employed a pin for articulation on the back side of the pilot apron.  Which shouldn't really be as hard as it may sound. A plumb pin might be the hard part if the apron isnt 100% vertical.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

For what it's worth, my Postwar early 1950s Lionel Brunswick Green 5 stripe GG1 does great on my 031 curves and 022 switches. Don't know how it would do on regular O27 curves and switches.

What's the horn sound like Arnold?

I think the best of that period were the K-line GG1s. Beautiful paint including perfect stripes around the front. Best body detail including doors and better detail of the trucks. They sold in conventional for an amazing $100. You could get them with TMCC. I bought two. Just couldn't pass them up at that price. Don

Ponz posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

For what it's worth, my Postwar early 1950s Lionel Brunswick Green 5 stripe GG1 does great on my 031 curves and 022 switches. Don't know how it would do on regular O27 curves and switches.

 

What's the horn sound like Arnold?

Bicycle horn, but oddly enough, I like it in Postwar engines.

Of the two # 4812 shown, the lower, darker shade more closely resembles mine and is a great match the semi scale plastic Broadway Limited streamlined cars; also nicely done. Lighted w/lit drumhead & obsv.car roof markers, 5 stripe the length,; inside, not super fine detailed, but a semi detailed interiors(walled, round tables, row seating, etc...They have an insert in place for ornate gold blinds/shades silhouettes. Additional clear strips, nicely printed with black silhouettes of figures, were also included . I've noticed the aluminium cars seem to have the lighter shade of Tuskan. I like my plastic BL. Cheap, but very easy on the eyes, and an easy pull too. I even let an old K stand in sometimes.

Of the two # 4812 shown, the lower, darker shade more closely resembles mine and is a great match the semi scale plastic Broadway Limited streamlined cars; also nicely done. Lighted w/lit drumhead & obsv.car roof markers, 5 stripe the length,; inside, not super fine detailed, but a semi detailed interiors(walled, round tables, row seating, etc...They have an insert in place for ornate gold blinds/shades silhouettes. Additional clear strips, nicely printed with black silhouettes of figures, were also included . I've noticed the aluminium cars seem to have the lighter shade of Tuskan. I like my plastic BL. Cheap, but very easy on the eyes, and an easy pull too. I even let an old K stand in sometimes.

scale rail posted:

I think the best of that period were the K-line GG1s. Beautiful paint including perfect stripes around the front. Best body detail including doors and better detail of the trucks. They sold in conventional for an amazing $100. You could get them with TMCC. I bought two. Just couldn't pass them up at that price. Don

I just sent one back because I think the horn sounds terrible.  WHERE? are you getting them for 100 bucks?

Ponz

They were $100 when K-Liine was in buisiness. 

bmoran4 posted:

Lionel 6-38521

http://www.lionel.com/products...stripe-4839-6-38521/

How in the world did you find it?  If I search on 6-38520 = no results found!

Ponz

@Ponz, the reason your search for the engine turns up nothing is because it was only included as part of a set: http://www.lionel.com/products...nv-loco-4831-6-30171

However, the parts listing does show up for the locomotive explicitly:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...amp;CFTOKEN=91116583

 

bmoran4 posted:

@Ponz, the reason your search for the engine turns up nothing is because it was only included as part of a set: http://www.lionel.com/products...nv-loco-4831-6-30171

However, the parts listing does show up for the locomotive explicitly:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...amp;CFTOKEN=91116583

 

Ah!  Thank you!  But what did you key on?

Ponz