Canadian Interest in O Gauge Trains

No argument from me.  It is impossible to access new product under MSRP.  With our dollar back in the dumper, those who barely tolerated the pricing before will die of sticker shock now.  For example, that same LHS you mentioned has a new Lionmaster Challenger just in...$1,399.  Another shop seems to be slowly selling off O stock without replenishing.   Two other shops are populated with wildly inflated 10-15 year old stock.  It's no wonder our ranks are few when there's little to entice an audience.

Also, forget the idea of online shopping.  The cross border shipping, customs brokerage and duties instantly kill any hope of getting some sort of bargain.  Every once in a blue moon I try importing something from the US, only to be disappointed yet again by what is surely the definition of highway robbery.  I tend to confine importing to when making a trip south is convenient.

To retain some sort of enthusiasm, I don't set my sights too lofty.  I enjoy the second hand market much better than taking a kick in the nuts buying retail.  I'm always brainstorming some way of adapting what I buy to suit my needs.  Having to attend swap meets and such to get my thrills also means I get to meet new people with the same interests...an added benefit.  I'm jonesing right about now and the next show isn't until January 10th.

Bruce

I can see this thread having the potential of going down some negative avenues....already got a couple of alerts as to whether or not it is appropriate.  PLEASE think before you post....

Alan

Im kind of surprised to hear about this.I have always looked at the US versus Canada as just an imaginary border for the most part.I see sellers on a popular auction site say they ship trains to Canada for an extra cost.

OGR Ad Man posted:

I can see this thread having the potential of going down some negative avenues....already got a couple of alerts as to whether or not it is appropriate.  PLEASE think before you post....

Alan

Alan,

Given OGR's forum membership and subscriber statistics in the Canadian market, I would think this is an important, relevant and informative discussion. Certainly, as the "Ad Man" are you not inquisitive as to what makes the Canadian market different, how to reach more subscribers, and expand the  hobby north of the border? To understand an issue requires thoughtful deliberation of both positive and negative attributes. This discussion, to my knowledge, contains no inappropriate language or content, does not disparage any forum sponsors, or slander any individuals. What alerts did you receive, and what offense has been alleged? I acknowledge and respect your warning to "think before you post". However, please conversely ask your anonymous complainants to more thoughtfully consider whether they have a true grievance.  Let's remain positive and not become negative society of "perpetually offended" delicate snowflakes There is a balance to be achieved.

When the dollar was close to par all we had to factor in was the extra shipping cost but now that the dollar is worth about 70 cents USD it really hurts. So add on 30% to the product cost and 30% on to the shipping cost and a $75 USD loco becomes about $165 CDN or more depending on whether Customs dings us handling and taxes. Some US importers are helping out with sale programs  but the toy train guys are not numbered among them!

I think there are a number of people interested in O gauge trains. I just joined a club in western Canada to be able to get their offering because I am into Canadian Railroads but to get back to the topic you have to compare apples to oranges here. Take the population of the US and the population of Canada and there is why you may think they is no interest but there is interest just in smaller numbers....................Paul

I have purchased almost all of my trains from a fellow in Ottawa, Tom Belfoy at the Toy Train Workshop.

I have dealt with him for over 12 years and he always had very competitive prices vs the US.

He managed this by driving to the US border to pick up product and do his own customs clearance.

He also repairs trains as well and is a great resource.

GregR posted:

OGR Ad Man posted:

I can see this thread having the potential of going down some negative avenues....already got a couple of alerts as to whether or not it is appropriate.  PLEASE think before you post....

Alan

Alan,

Given OGR's forum membership and subscriber statistics in the Canadian market, I would think this is an important, relevant and informative discussion. Certainly, as the "Ad Man" are you not inquisitive as to what makes the Canadian market different, how to reach more subscribers, and expand the  hobby north of the border? To understand an issue requires thoughtful deliberation of both positive and negative attributes. This discussion, to my knowledge, contains no inappropriate language or content, does not disparage any forum sponsors, or slander any individuals. What alerts did you receive, and what offense has been alleged? I acknowledge and respect your warning to "think before you post". However, please conversely ask your anonymous complainants to more thoughtfully consider whether they have a true grievance.  Let's remain positive and not become negative society of "perpetually offended" delicate snowflakes There is a balance to be achieved.

Agreed. Canada is (arguably) the US' most important ally and trading partner. I recall reading that 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border, so a lot of what we do, including hobbies, are intertwined. While there are modest cultural differences, I find Ontario to be closer in culture and personality to my home state of Ohio than many more distant parts of the US. Not quite sure how this could go bad.

I actually found the posts above interesting. I didn't realize the challenges our Canadian hobbyists had with respect to availability, currency fluctuations, and taxes. Learn something new every day.

I'm not sure why fewer Canadians are modeling O gauge.  Judging by the location of dealers there are pockets of interest around Ottawa, around Fergus-Elora, around Calgary and of course, Georges once in Toronto now in Markham.  I buy from online dealers, my local dealer tells me he has no suppliers. But 10 years ago when I moved here he did have an OGR fire station kit, so there was some interest at some point.  

At one time there was duty on items imported into the country and as Lionel was imported from the US it may have been subject to duty and Customs may not have at that time classified Lionel as a toy.  My father worked for Canada Customs for 43 years and whether an item was a toy or not did come up.  Duty on toys was about 4%, versus 20-24% on some goods considered luxuries.

I have noticed parcels with a NOEEI 30.36 or NOEEi 30.37 AES/ITN Exemption are never charged sales tax or processing fees.  These purchases are completely tax free, something that doesn't happen here.  This exemption seems not to apply to Williams by Bachmann items.  Three times I have purchased a Bachmann Peter Witt and three times I have been charged sales tax.  But never on MTH or Lionel items.

One difference between the US and Canada is that I can never remember a public display of Lionel trains at Christmas. There were trains in the windows of Eaton's and Simpson's in Toronto but I don't remember the details.  In the post-war years the primary train display in Eaton's Toyville was a ride-in train built first by Canadian Pacific in the Angus Shops and then by Canadian National.  These were gone by the early 60s.  

Any interest in British style trains ?? A crazy bureaucratic world.  Would kits for engines and cars be treated differently ??

I remember some British style trains, Hornby OO scale and Triang TT scale, but these were not the trains you saw in local club publications or Trains or Railroad magazine.

GregR,

The situation is the same for all of our global O gauge 3-rail friends. They face the same lack of ready availability and the increased cost of acquisition. I have corresponded with O gauge 3-railers in Japan, Australia, Brazil, Germany, Netherlands, France, England and Canada. (Thanks, OGR Forum)

The space required for an O Gauge layout is one of the major limiting factors for lack of widespread popularity. Many HO modelers spend serious money. But, they have the space for an HO layout. No different in the U.S., except more will have space for a small to medium O gauge layout.

So, one can fund a hobby.

I don't know how the taxes and fees get handled, but I use USPS Priority mail, fill out the customs forms and pay whatever they say. I ship toy train items. Perhaps some dealers\retailers don't charge the fees upfront or haven't figured it out. I have a local hobby store that ships globally. They seem to know how to do it.

A 5 x 10 layout of track, electronics, a transformer come to mind at $35-$50 for each separate shipment on top the cost. No charges are requested of the recipients. All to Canada, NB. I recall one forum member in Calgary paying huge shipping for U.S. goods. Someone is doing something differently. Alaskan and Hawaiian residents are up against the same charges.

I don't believe that there is anything different going on other than normal interest in a foreign based product and a hobby participation rate that's small when compared to other hobbies.

I just came back from Canada it was my first time we went to Regina and one of the things I wanted to do is go to a local hobby shop I found plenty of ho and N scale in every hobby shop I went to. then we stayed with our daughter and son-n law and we can see that the houses are smaller and a lot of apartments so I can see were if you loved trains you would go for the smaller scales also there is a large interest in radio control maybe the big city's have people with more room to do o scale but at least in the middle of the country there were plenty of small homes also I have purchased and traded  here on the forum with people from Canada so I hope it does expand and people get into o scale trains     

Although not entirely related to this thread, I've wondered how/if the strengthening dollar is helping make products more affordable. 

Irregardless of the dollar value it is hard to expose youngsters to O gauge when there is such a big difference in the cost of starter sets between O and HO. Most parents opt for the less expensive HO set not realizing that most kids are not ready to handle them carefully. Even though I have O gauge running in my window most still go for the cheaper alternative. A week later the train is trashed and we have lost another potential hobbyist.

Growing up  within 5 miles of Canada we visited there dozens of times every year. I seem to recall back in the '50s the population of Canada was about the same as New York State, 14 million. As has been pointed out above, fewer people, fewer trains.

Pete

Interesting. I live a long way from Canada (Gulf Coast) and have never been there - though I saw Windsor from Detroit, once! - but I had no idea that 3RO was a problem.

As MTH and Lionel and so on are not manufacturers in fact, and functionally are importers, maybe a "Joint Lionel/MTH of Canada" established that brings in Chinese and Korean trains just like they do here. Of course, I do think that Canada (rightly) has a tighter reign over its borders than does the US. (What do I know? I'm not a businessman; don't know how these things work.)

If you are really interested in knowing what a Canadian pays just in shipping, go to the Trainz web site , price out a box car or a switch and put in a Canadian address.  Their minimum charge to Canada for ANYTHING was over $ 30.00 Us.  Today that $ 30 works out to 42.00 Canadian plus GST tax of 5% . If mailed here and customs gets it  their handling charge is an additional $ 9.95.

A couple of years ago TRAINZ hd decent pricing to Canada, but one day everything changed.

When I purchased from the OGR forum, some of my purchases of engines cost me $ 50.00 US although the postage on the box read $ 38.00.

SSo if I get back into trains I probably will have to go HO.

A starter  Lionel set in a dealer's place here is over $ 500.00

The OGR Digital Adman seems worried that this could suddenly go south (and I don't mean from here in Canada into the States, lol)... Worried that people would speak their truth on such a positive subject as their relationship to a wonderful hobby being modified or destroyed by out of sight border and shipping rates? One that is feeling the pinch of sky high costs in getting trains into Canadians' hands? Well, it is true. I'm fortunate to live close enough to the border that I find it affordable and convenient to pay for a PO box in N. Washington state and make runs. I typically buy others' castoffs and junk and fix and just enjoy the trains as they are with whatever I can put into them to spiff them up. I just love trains, but the expense of a very low Canadian dollar and ridiculous shipping costs (eBay, for instance, has made it nearly imperative for sellers to send via more expensive routes, which only adds to the Canadian jack-up at the pocketbook. Some of us are lucky to have the means to pay it, wince and love our trains, but many people look elsewhere for hobbies that aren't so prohibitive. Sad, especially when those of us who are old enough remember the good times when dep't. stores and hobby shops were stocked with Lionel, Am. Flyer and more and Christmas was a treasured time for families who purchased trains. Love this thread, even if the adman's not thrilled. Would he rest easier knowing that my eyes are on a couple of advertisers whose products are so nicely priced right now, that even at the other costs I'm still about to order a few things? Merry Christmas, adman! 

As a Canadian I feel that I have to throw in my 2 cents on this discussion. At the present time, trains and their associated accessories are classed as toys, and are duty free. But, we do have to pay federal and provincial sales taxes, which in Ontario where I live is 13% total.

    I found that ordering and having an item shipped to Canada, either by post or courier was totally cost prohibitive. LCCA once sent me a convention car by UPS that was worth $60 US, and the delivery fee surcharges were going to be over $35 CAD, plus I was going to have to drive 20 miles to their depot to pick it up. I refused the parcel and had it sent back. Talked to LCCA and everything from them now comes via mail, with no surcharges. 

      Anything I buy through the"bay", through club publications, and on-line, I have sent to a US delivery site at the border. I go down, pick it up, and declare it at the Canadian customs. Usually, an item under $65 CAD is waved through. Low , and in most cases, free shipping, makes the hour drive to the border worth while to me. Plus I can fill my vehicle up on cheap gas!

     I also have to note that there are no hobby shops that stock O gauge trains, within 1000 miles of me, in Canada. Trips to Toronto or Ottawa always include the premier shops there.

     Years ago, used to travel to Minneapolis for the GATS shows. O gauge slowly faded from them till there were mainly HO and N scale dealers left, with the t shirt and coffee mug sellers. But it was a great venue to promote trains in general to kids. 

raising4daughters posted                                        I recall reading that 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border,

Sounds like they are massing for an attack. Should we alert someone?

GregR

Very interesting statistics, enlightening, and educational. Spent the first half of my life just below the border. I agree that this thread is very positive. Maybe it will reveal some options for our good friends to the north and help understand the market.  

Good Job!!!! 

MarkLX200 posted:

raising4daughters posted                                        I recall reading that 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border,

Sounds like they are massing for an attack. Should we alert someone?

That's just where the weather is the warmest.  

Larry3railtrains posted:

If you are really interested in knowing what a Canadian pays just in shipping, go to the Trainz web site , price out a box car or a switch and put in a Canadian address.  Their minimum charge to Canada for ANYTHING was over $ 30.00 Us.  Today that $ 30 works out to 42.00 Canadian plus GST tax of 5% . If mailed here and customs gets it  their handling charge is an additional $ 9.95.

 

A couple of years ago TRAINZ hd decent pricing to Canada, but one day everything changed.

When I purchased from the OGR forum, some of my purchases of engines cost me $ 50.00 US although the postage on the box read $ 38.00.

 

Some dealers like The Western Depot and M B Klein allow you to see how much shipping will be before making the purchase and offer different options at different prices.  M B Klein this week quoted $14.00 to ship a MTH four wheel Trolley to my address.  That was a pretty good price, but given the exchange I'm not yet ready to buy.

Greentrain48 posted:

As a Canadian I feel that I have to throw in my 2 cents on this discussion. At the present time, trains and their associated accessories are classed as toys, and are duty free. But, we do have to pay federal and provincial sales taxes, which in Ontario where I live is 13% total.

    I found that ordering and having an item shipped to Canada, either by post or courier was totally cost prohibitive. LCCA once sent me a convention car by UPS that was worth $60 US, and the delivery fee surcharges were going to be over $35 CAD, plus I was going to have to drive 20 miles to their depot to pick it up. I refused the parcel and had it sent back. Talked to LCCA and everything from them now comes via mail, with no surcharges. 

   

UPS is known for the customs brokerage scam on international shipments.  It also applies to shipments into the US.  Basically its $25 for non-existent paper work.  When the Canadian government challenged them on this a few years ago when Jim Flaherty was still Finance Minister, UPS said they would have raise their prices if the brokerage fee was outlawed.

I got really excited after reading the first few posts waiting to see the negative avenues this thread was going down.  Now I have read the entire thread and totally disappointed.  No drama and no gossip and no conspiracy. 

aussteve posted:

I got really excited after reading the first few posts waiting to see the negative avenues this thread was going down.  Now I have read the entire thread and totally disappointed.  No drama and no gossip and no conspiracy. 

Imagine that!  Polite Canadians!

Bruce

Yes, it's always a problem on the O-gauge 3-rail front in Canada. Lionel MSRP, for example, and duties on essentially toyish-looking items over the decades hasn't helped with parents wanting to buy Junior a starter set. That price-tag is what sadly makes them do a U-turn in hobby shops, but for us older fogies, the secondary market does yield a few gems. The dollar exchange occasionally (like the last few years until the oil price tumbled) makes the rare new purchase possible.

The big hurdle in recent memory is the conversion of shipping  into a major profit centre. As a wise maritime ship-owner once said, the "freight should be a fraction of the cargo cost". These days, for consumer items, it often exceeds the price of the purchase being considered. That is a business-killer, and there are on-line retailers who don't seem to have realized this yet. A few have recognized the issue and offer realistic shipping costs.

Things to avoid for us Canucks are cross-border "express" shipping, which will go through courier services and you'll get dinged for customs brokerage fees. Use the good old regular US Mail option. A mess of individual items will kill you on shipping, so I try for combinations or sets when possible.

Things to try are putting your pennies aside for big purchases and pick a US parcel depot for a shipping address. Plan a trip to visit our US friends for a week's vacation or more, to receive a higher duty-free allowance. I am fortunate in living close to the border, and my US shipping address depot charges me $3 a parcel for their service. 

So in a O gauge nutshell, what works for me? I shop secondary market, I don't ship express, I use a US shipping address, I try for combos or sets, and I time my trips to reduce the duties. And I love to visit the US! 

GregR posted:

 

My first guess is the financial hypothesis. Canadians have never had as much disposable income as Americans, due to a variety of reasons, including taxation. Sure, to be certain, there will be Canadian members on this forum who will disagree. But they are the scarce few who can afford the hobby.

Any other thoughts?

I found this topic interesting since my wife is part French Canadian with ancestors in Nova Scotia.

Sounds like the financial reasons are key, maybe followed by a lack of adequate supply and demand.

I was wondering what the electrical situation is up North? I am assuming everything runs like it does down here in the lower 48, in other words, you don't need any electrical adaptors to run your trains, do you?

Tom 

Since the railroads were used to build most of Canada, why is there not any production of O scale model railroad equipment and track in a highly populated area of Canada?

There were and still are several builders of real railroad equipment in Canada.

Andrew

The Canadians don't want our little, old O gauge trains - they want the BIG ones !!!

MNCW posted:

I was wondering what the electrical situation is up North? I am assuming everything runs like it does down here in the lower 48, in other words, you don't need any electrical adaptors to run your trains, do you?

Tom 

That's right electrical adapters are not needed. Just plug it in.

For crying out loud... There's a ton of  3 rail trains and layouts here. Lionel back in the 40s and 50 s  was sold in just about every hardware and some tire stores ( Firestone) . Yes now  the new stuff is  getting a little pricy but there's still  lots around and quite a few layouts as well. 

 As for the Hydro.... We sell a lot to you guys.. We don't need any adaptors  or anything special.    

This was sobering and depressing, sounding like our northern neighbors are getting ripped off on shipping, as well as duty charges.  As for their not making any trains, most of ours, O gauge/scale, and I think the small gauges,  are imports, (we ain't makin' any, either)  and we have concerns about a decreasing population interested in trains, so...with the Canadian population much smaller.......they will have much less of a market.

Since neither Lionel or MTH or whomever has set up an office in Canada to import directly  from across the pond, I'd guess they don't think the market is big enough  (and I have no idea how that would be treated by Canadian customs/duties).   The way train manufacturers have pulled back on offerings, maybe they don't think the U.S. market is big enough, either.

A thought provoking thread to which I'd like to add my insights based upon personal experience.

I've made several railfan trips to Canada, meeting numerous enthusiasts and visiting several well stocked trains stores in the course of my travels. One shop in Toronto was particularly outstanding. It seemed to me there were plenty of hobbyists but, where modeling was concerned, they all worked in HO and N. There are many accurate Canadian models from which to chose in these scales and the selection has become even better with Rapido Trains introducing equipment with museum quality detailing and performance to match such as the GMD-1 in both HO and N. Also, Bowser is bringing to market the Canadian version of the SD40-2 and the distinctive SD40-2F in HO. I have to imagine it would be tough for O gauge to compete with this. I don't model Canadian roads per se but even I have acquired models of Canadian equipment in HO and N as a result having seen the prototypes during my trips.    

Bob  

Heh heh heh, eh? Oh kay, we can cut out all this pre-tents about us Canadianers being jussed like you fellers and gals way down there in the good ol' warm You Ess of Ay, eh? Heh, heh. Yeah, us Canuckleheads all labor under a blanket of snow nearly all year for jest a week or two in th' summer months where we get a chance to plug in our gas-fired e-lectric generators so's we c'n play a bit with our Marx trains, which are plentiful cheap and ready down at th' ol Woolworth stores on nearly any Canadian corner. C'mon, now, you must know th' real reason Canadians don't have many O gauge trains - we just ain't got much in th' way of two 'n three dollar bills left after payin' for our kids to play hockey, which used to be cheap, but ain't any more! Every time I see my eleven year-old boy flyin' down the left wing, I imagine him to be a #773 Hudson and I get a bit warm. When he scores, I get so warm I can feel my toes!

In the 1950s Lionel at least had a distributor in Canada.  I have a 1957 Canadian Lionel consumer catalog with the only difference from the US catalog being the lack of prices.  I just think Lionel and MTH have never really pursued a foreign market.

Gossip.... remember the Video VHS about   the remaking of the Lionel 700 E Hudson around 1990? it seems the casting for the engine was  done right here in our town just  north  of Toronto.

If it's true That would be the only train I know of Manufactured in Canada .

Yes winters here for 10 months  and poor sledding for the other 2.

In the 70's , General Mills (Lionel)had a Canadian distributer called Parker Brothers that sold O and HO trains, some of which were marketed only in Canada, in special boxes. Some of those boxed items have big ticket prices!