Cancelling Ordered Items

I have not cancelled any pre-orders as I never had the need and I feel it would be a breach of contract.

That being said there are certainly circumstances where I would deem it acceptable to do so. For instance if I lost my job or experienced some other financial hardship I would be okay with it.

There was a dealer I knew that had certain customers routinely cancelling pre-orders. This caused significant strain on him as he got stuck trying to sell expensive pieces in certain road names that most of his clientele where not interested in.

Only once have I have felt a need to cancel a pre-order. The situation was entirely my own doings. I called the dealer, explained what I had done, and asked that I be allowed to cancel a $600 item. After checking with another person, they agreed to allow the cancellation.

 

Then about a week later the item showed up anyway, with a paid invoice enclosed! That dealer is not on my list anymore, and I asked to be taken off of their's.

 

To me, the important thing to do was to contact the dealer, explain the circumstances, and ask to be allowed to cancel. And then accept their decision.

 

PS: Just read Frank's reply, and certainly agree with his comments regarding financial hardship.

What Frank said. I tend to approach pre-orders as if I am spending the money now, i.e., I do not rely on the delayed shipping to cause me to have enough money laying around for the purchase. If I don't have the disposable income available, I should not place the pre-order. (IMO)

 

Therefore, even if I have a car repair, home need, etc. between the pre-order and the delivery, I really shouldn't need to cancel the order (or I should not have ordered it in the first place, again - IMO).

 

I would allow exceptions only for cases like if an item's delays seem like it is never going to get made. (Like it's been in your pre-order list for 3 years, you may no longer be into trains it has been so long, etc)

 

Does your "$350 reasons" mean you need $350 and are cancelling a $2000 Big Boy order, or does it mean you need $350 and are cancelling 7 boxcars/reefers/etc.? This goes back to Frank's comment.

 

Depending on your personal relationship and history with this particular dealer, it may depend on whether you are ultimately sticking him/her with stock that won't sell, or if he/she will easily find a replacement buyer for the goods you previously committed to purchase.

 

So it is really a conversation for you to have with your dealer, not a clear "poll winner" decision based on what people here tell you they would do.

 

The only time I cancelled a preorder was due to being laid-off.

 

Food, shelter, clothing tend to take priority over trains.

 

Rusty

I never canceled but I had a dealer cancel an order on me. It was for an add on set of MTH World Fair subway cars back when they were hot!

Every time I went to the store or called to find out what happened to my cars I was given a runaround.

I had given him 50% down in cash and all he was saying was that he will call and find out what happened to the add on cars. He wanted to give me my deposit back, but all I wanted was the two add on cars.

After a MONTH he finally said that he had to cancel because one of his employees forgot to order them!

I was not happy, but I do give him credit, he went on the Bay and got me a set. He ended up paying double and he sold me them for the original price.

All is well and now after about 12  + years or so I still do business with him.

quote:

He ended up paying double and he sold me them for the original price

 

I would expect no less.

 

It would seem that this is a part of the BTO development that we all need to understand and know what to do about.  Most reputable dealers would work with most responsible customers on something like this.  The people that just change their minds for no valid reason should be held to the contract in my opinion though.

 

Art

I pre-ordered a $450 diesel this year, then found the non-powered on ebay.

 

I realize I don't want the PS3 diesel anymore now that I have the non-powered, but I am still going to pay for my pre-order.  I'll probably sell it on the buy/sell forum, even for a loss.  I feel its only fair to my dealer to honor the pre-order.  He didn't ask for any deposit from me.

I had pre-ordered an item, SIGHT UN-SEEN!

The merchant was understanding, when I cancelled the order after I saw what the item was, but for the same amount of money I bought something else, which I did want.

As a result and if possible this merchant E.-Mails info. and a photo. of an item I'm interested in. 

Ralph

 

Happened once ...  had pre-ordered a couple items from a large online dealer. Life throws a huge financial curveball and wrestled with the decision that I needed to cancel. It was many months before published delivery and the items were in demand. Explained the situation and, since this was dealer from which I had made numerous purchases, hoped they would show some empathy. No such luck ... rather than work with me it was all Jerry Maguire .. "show me the money".

 

Being a big boy I did acknowledge making the preorder and took my lumps, along with disappointment, paying the cancellation fee. Sad thing is I liked these folks but to this day have not ordered another item.  

 

Though things got sorted and I can easily afford now, I have my own twisted view on pre-orders. I get why they exist but personally can't get onboard.  Like most things it's not black or white and I suspect response to a cancellation request would vary between dealers.

 

Good discussion  ... with delivery times and BTO in the mix, commitments on both sides need to fully understood. I've always believed a deal is a deal but there are circumstances where a little wiggle room is appreciated.

 

And yes... I did acquire those items after all returned to normal...  

 

 

Perhaps this isn't exactly what the OP was asking, but I feel that in this era of BTO and pre-order sight unseen based on a catalog photo, that may or may not be realistic, this is an important topic. If I walk into a store I get to see/hear/touch an item before I purchase. If I am buying something sight unseen I feel I still have the right to say no thank you if it doesn't meet my expectations.  I know that many people will disagree with me and that's fine.

 

I had a scenario once where I pre-ordered several items that would be delivered over the following year. When the first arrived, I was not pleased with it. I called the dealer and said I would keep the first one, but I wanted to cancel the rest of the pre-orders because they weren't what I thought I would be getting. Well, they disagreed and charged me a large cancellation fee claiming their policy was on their website. I discussed it with my credit card company and they sided with me.  The charges were reversed and I removed that dealer from my list.

 

It is an unenviable position for a dealer to be in for sure. It is a risk of doing business in these BTO times though. Adding to what others have said though, I find it best to work with reputable dealers that I have a history with. It is also why I tend to buy from companies like 3rd Rail that will bend over backwards to make sure you are a happy customer.

I cancelled a bunch of stuff a little while back and I did not have any repercussions  other than one of my dealers was a bit mad

Just cancel it, no excuses needed.

Since I only work with Nassau Hobby, for pre-orders, on a few occassions I have cancelled a pre-order and had them transferred the deposit to another pre-order.

For example, I cancelled my Lionel Neil Young Sig Series TX special set and had them transfer the deposit to a MTH pre-order for LIRR C-Liners.

Basically, something came out I wanted more.

However, one time when I had ordered both current Lionel Neil Young sets, i.e. the PRR and the TX Spec AA units.

They both came in, and I paid for the PRR, but did not want the TX Special, because I had recently lost my job and it was too much additional money to spend.

Their policy is that as long as the pre-order has not shipped, you can transfer all you want.

But, if it ships and all they need is the rest of your payment, well no the policy is you do not get your deposit back.

I did not mind though, I actually told the person I spoke to that I love Nassau Hobby and that they had saved me so much money over the years, to just keep the deposit on teh one item and consider it a donation from a happy customer.

Thus, my fault not theirs and I knew the policy.

Also, with all the savings I get from them, that small deposit was easily recapped.

To date, I've honored all of my Preorders. I have had a couple of problems with dealers selling off or never shipping me items that I preordered (even when they are shown in-stock on their website). They will not be seeing future pre-orders from me.

 

Gilly

Never cancelled, if ya order it, pay for it.

ordered a train set from dealer "A" (who will remain nameless) for $460. A day later found the same item for $400 from Dealer "B".  Called Dealer "A" and asked to cancel order. Dealer "A" charged me $30 restocking fee. Bought item from Dealer "B". and still saved $30 even after restocking fee.

Only once I had pre-order remorse and that was with an order for two Railking UP Heritage engines.  I went ahead with the purchase and resold the new engines without even running them.  Since I got a great price on the pre-order, I think I only took a $30-$40 hit on each engine. It didn't bother me to much as I was in a transistion at the time toward scale equipment only.

 

If there are personal financial reasons to cancel a pre-order, I think courtesy would be to let the dealer know as soon as possible.

 

Jim

From a purely legal posture, once an order is made, it is a contractual relationship between buyer and seller for a specified product at a given price.  Unless there is misrepresentation, the contract is valid and enforceable, subject to any express or implied warranties under the Uniform Commercial Code.  However, most dealers in the business accept returns because of the customer goodwill such a practice entails.  They would lose considerable business if they insisted on their contractual rights in such situations because they realize that repeat customers often look to how they were treated initially with purchases and returns.

Also what Frank said, if you pre-order something I think that is the same as purchasing it and is a binding contract on your word that you will accept it when it arrives. Circumstances beyond one's control are exceptions and should be able to be worked out. Many things happen that we can't see coming ahead of time.

 

I do my pre-orders the same way as you, have the money up front before placing the order. I've had to cut way back on a few orders because of this, just didn't order the stuff I couldn't pay for at the time of order. I have not yet cancelled any of my pre-orders and don't plan to, but you never know what can happen.

Yeah, any retailer that sues his customers is soon gone - and should be.

+++

I canceled a couple of 3-rail high-end brass steamers a over a decade ago. I do not feel that

cancellation is something that a grownup should do without very good reasons - 

but, obviously, these are luxury items, and if your life has a twist and that $1000 becomes

critical to your food and shelter, the retailer himself should understand that his product really has to take a back seat.

 

But, that did not happen to me - my reason was that the wait time (new deadline! May

199x!) had become insultingly long. The world moves on, and it takes two to tango,

which means that a retailer/manufacturer has an obligation to provide said item in

a timely manner once that item has been advertised and it's intended delivery date has been published, or suffer, without complaint, the consequences of cancellation.

 

In fact, I'm easy about it (my NYC T-3 electric had a long and difficult birth, but I stuck

with it), and I do not mind a deadline sliding once or even twice. The T-3 did that and

more, along with a large price increase. So, I've made my bones, there.

 

Customer and retailer each owe the other reasonability; do what you say that you'll

do - both of you.

I have no qualms on a item I have to cancel. My god I canceled a vehicle I ordered because it was not as stated by the dealer. He cried and threatened to no avail. Guess what, he also lost my business. I bought a new car every two years but not from him.

 

I have also canceled many train items because of job loss, a life event and some others. Any dealer that complains  looses  my business forever. I have bought allot of trains in my life and no one can tell me I can't cancel something if I have to. 

I didn't think these Neil Young sets were going to be in until 2015.

???  That's the way everyone does it.

I think that it is a stretch to call a pre-order a legally binding contract.  Most pre-orders are taken over the telephone and there isn't even a paper trail of a product being ordered.  Add in to this, that products are often canceled, almost never arrive in a timely manner, or are different from what is published in a catalog.

 

That said, given that O gauge is a niche market, I always try to honor a pre-order as I think it is the right thing to do.

 

Jim

To me a pre-order is is a commitment and should be honored period. It is a matter of personal integrity and honor and nothing more.

 

About 15 years ago i pre-ordered a a loco ($425) from the hobby shop where i had bought over 90% of my motive power. When i went to pick it up, i was extremely disappointed in its appearance (long story). Yet to me it was a matter of keeping my end of the bargain and i paid for it. Never ran it, lugged it to train shows for two years, finally sold it on Ebay for $165. To me my personal integrity and honor is worth one heck of a lot more than the $260 loss i took, or the $300+ worth of inventory i would have stuck my dealer with.

 

Now i seldom pre-order, and if i do it is upon seeing an actual sample or a photo (not an artist's rendering) of what i'm ordering. Also i prefer pre-paying in full with cash, a handshake, and hand written receipt. This usually gets me some very friendly pricing.

 

jackson

 

But then by the same argument doesn't the buyer have legal recourse against the dealer for items that are cancelled?  It's not legally enforceable on either side and if it were would anyone be willing to spend the money to recoup any loss? Lawyers fees, court cost and time off from work to get back $400-$500-$1000 dollars?

 

Jerry

IIRC, to be a legally binding contract you need offer, acceptance, capacity and consideration (i.e. money transferred).  That is likely why some dealers require at least a dollar for pre-orders so all components of a binding contract are present.

 

Will some dealers enforce their "contracts" or be flexible with pre-order cancellations?  That is up to the dealer.  I think it is unfair to a dealer who takes an order, places the order, pays for the order and then the customer cancels after the order deadline and/or is still looking for the lowest price and eventually buys elsewhere.  Equally, it is not easy for a customer to get an item that is not what was expected, but the catalogs always have the fine print saying that items are representations and they reserve the right to alter or not produce the depicted product.

 

There are understandable circumstances (loss of job or sudden hardship) that may warrant to ask for a cancellation.  The dealer should have the ability to dictate how that is handled at this stage if it is approved or transferred.  The customer should also be informed, cautious or restrained before placing an order, realizing the obligation that they placed on oneself even if the dealer does not require a dollar pre-order deposit.

 

To some, their word is a reflection of their honor and commitment to what they agreed without need of a formal legal sales contract.

Why would paying in cash get you a better price?

I very, very seldom have ever cancelled a pre-order. The only case I remember is where I had ordered an item from a big dealer and all of the other dealers were shipping it out and when I asked him about it he hadn't received his supply yet, etc. etc. This took place over a period of about two months - I would check with him every once in a while (not often enough that a reasonable person would feel harassed) and he kept responding with BS. I finally came to the conclusion that he was probably in arrears with the manufacturer and that's why he wasn't getting his stuff. I was afraid the item was going to sell out and get hard to find, so I cancelled the order and bought it somewhere else. He got all bent out of shape, said I was off his list, he wouldn't do business with me any more, threats and invective, blah blah blah. I once posted the story on this forum and he threatened to sue me. I ignored him. 

 

The funny thing was, about a year later he sent me an invitation to connect on LinkedIn! I ignored that too, and I ignore the e-mails I get every once in a while advertising sales at his store. By the way, I will NOT reveal the name but the dealer in question is now a Forum sponsor. 

Audi, paying in cash saves the merchant bank fees for processing credit cards, debit cards, and/or using check guarantee services. While said fees may be as little as a fraction of a percent for the large mass merchandisers, they can be as high as 4% or 5% for a small merchant. Also prepayment gives the merchant the use of my money for a few months and the assurance i am serious about my pre-order as well as meaning i won't have to think (worry) about having the discretionary funds available when the item arrives. Win-Win all around.

jackson

I agree with those that believe a preorder is a commitment from the buyer to purchase the product when it becomes available.  Because of this, I preorder only those products I really want.  I have done very few preorders, and I have yet to be disappointed with a product I have preordered.  

     I am also a firm believer in following through with a pre-order, with financial hardship being an exception. Being a LHS, or hobby shop in general, is not easy nowadays. Sticking them with product, particularly for non-regional or oddball railroads, is unfair. You expect to get your product when it is ordered, and they expect you to take delivery of it when it comes in. There is some give and take regarding delivery dates and product representation, but those are details you should discuss with whomever you bought the product from prior to placing the order.

 

     Being good on your word has it's advantages. In my own case, my LHS no longer requires me to put any money down on my pre-orders. They have also offered to hold items for me if a large amount of stuff comes in all at once, so I'm not forking over an excessive amount of money all at the same time. I've never taken them up on it, but it is nice to know they would do it for me.

 

 

     And some retail stores, in various segments, offer cash discounts. They don't have to pay credit card fees on the transaction.

This subject is an excellent example of why it is important to have a good relationship with your dealer of choice. You build a relationship that over time will serve you both very well. If there are extenuating circumstances for a cancellation, your dealer will in all probability understand a cancellation without jeopardizing your relationship.

Interesting topic to be sure - one that I have fumbled through recently.  It is indeed a two way street and the manufacturers have complicated the situation.   It's one thing to mis a ship date by a few weeks up to a month, but some of these things end up being a year out or more.  Lots of things change in a year.   I've also had a few pre-orders not show up; not because they were cancelled - they just didn't ever show up at the dealer.   That just happened this week - I had an item that was ordered a year ago, shipped in February of last year, and the dealer never got it.  I found one elsewhere and told the original dealer to cancel.  Don't feel bad about it at all, but... the passenger cars for the engine DID show up - he just sat on them for months assuming the engine would show.  Now, if I could not have found the engine elsewhere, I would have walked away from the cars as well, as I made it clear I was ordering them as a set.  Wouldn't have felt bad about that one either.   

 

Both of these things were the last items I pre-ordered, and I doubt I'll be doing it again.  At this point I want to see it and test-run it before I pay for it.  If I can't, I don't need it that bad....

I agree with Brian regarding building a relationship with your dealer. My shop does not take a down payment, but the preorder is placed in their inventory system and I am given a printout of that list.  I think if I were to cancel an order, it would be possible on a one off basis, since I have many years of following through on my commitments.  However, if it happens on a regular basis, then I think my credit worthyness would be called into question.

With my dealer, I pre-order and often change or cancel items with a simple email.  Very easy process.  They charge when it ships.  And I think this is partly due to me being a solid customer since 1990.  Where the purchases far outshine any cancellations or return.  

I also cancelled a order with a Large Mail Order site after being Laid off.  I also had pre-ordered items as my LHS and told him the situation but didn't cancel.  I ended up purchasing the items as planned, but when the income stream suddenly goes away toys are the first to get cut.

 

I do feel it would be wrong not to contact the dealer and instead cancel when the item arrives.  If it arrives and I hadn't cancelled well in advance of delivery I would feel obligated to fulfill the purchase.

 

Jim

I have given up on pre-orders....it would have to be something I was drooling all over

the catalog for to do that.  They get cancelled, or by the time they float in, it is a

surprise.  "Did I order that??"  Luckily, lately, there has been almost nothing of interest in the catalogs, but I don't expect that to hold.  I have certainly honored all

I ordered, but...do not know if something I ordered has never shown up.