Car & Locomotive Shops H-6 under the looking glass

Erik,

Thanks for the great photos.  

 

A couple of questions:  Is she a runner or a shelf queen?  Did the builder provide a weight over the front drivers?  Are there two motors or one?

 

Thanks again,

Ed

Ed, Every model that Henry had built was highly detailed and ran well....The photo was taken  over his home August 2001. I forgot how many cars he ran with this engine but my guess was 15 or more. He built an outdoor 1/2 dog bone layout with 2% grades..He tested all his models prior to shipping them to customers....

 

Dennis

 

One of the local modelers brought one of these over to run on the layout and it was pretty spectacular. I wish he had imported some N&W items.

Just like Dennis posted -

Runs 0.5 amp/1 volt 35 smph.

Silent lights everywhere. A real treat.

DCC and Tsunsmi sound and this model would be the ultimate in any collection.

Erik,

I hope you misplaced the decimal point in the "35".  35 smph at 1 volt seems very high.

Also, do you think that the Tsunami alone can handle the amperage at 12 volts with wheel slippage?

I agree that this engine would be the premier engine in any collection.

Thanks,

Ed

It took numerous trips to his Korean builders to get both the accuracy of detail and the quality of build and drive that Henry wanted, to his credit these are exceptional models. I believe the Kohs hudson was the first to really superdetail a production model.JMHO

Henry was the high water mark in O Scale.  Opinion.

 

Question: did he figure out how to power these things without the drive shaft showing? Where is it?

It is available for adoption fellas

Sorry about my goofy numbers there. The point I'm making is at less than an amp And the volt meter just touching under a volt it goes as smooth as the most smoothest model I've run outside my Mikados with Faulhaubers.

She is beautiful!

Wow- even better in person

What would the potential parent have to sacrifice?

I would add that his rs and TM units aren't too shabby either... Opinion ! :-)

Didn't Henry's steam locos have some kind of unique coasting drive?  I read somewhere that he used custom low-voltage motors and some kind of insanely tall gear ratio.  I've never seen one apart.  They're like a modern Stradivarius.  Does anyone know the real facts behind the myth??

Ted,

Henry had all his locomotives shipped here minus the gear box. Henry built all his own gearboxes and installed them himself. He then test ran each piece to his own satisfaction. He did not want his builders to have access to his own work. And he was so demanding that he ****ed off his builder to the extent the relationship ended during production of the Trainmasters. I feel very fortunate to own some of his work.

 

Tom Mapes

I have a C&LS WM 4-8-4 and two C&LS 4-6-6-4's. I run them regularly in my operating sessions.

 

The late Russ Wilcox told me about Henry and the upcoming WM 4-8-4. I called Henry and asked about the minimum radius because my old layout had a 50 in radius curve in the wye leading to my engine house. Henry told me that the pilot model built to scale needed a radius of about 100 in. He had modified the final design to take a 72 in radius. I told him I had a 50 in radius curve and he replied "What are you, a tin plate guy?" I said "have you read John Armstrong's track planning books?" He replied "Who is John Armstrong."

 

I modified my 4-8-4 to take a 50 in radius. I substituted 33 in plastic pilot truck wheels for the 36 in metal wheels and cut notches in the tailbeam so the trailing truck can swing through the tailbeam as shown in the photo below.

 

The C&LS engines do have a coasting drive which uses a double cut worm. The next two photos show the rear engine on my WM 4-6-6-4 with 1) the gear box without the cover showing the worm gear and 2) the gearbox with the cover showing C&LS on the cover.

 

I bought these engines in 1998 and my layout was already DCC equipped. The original Pittman motor was a high current motor. There weren't many high current decoders available and most used pulse width modulation (PWM) frequencies in the audible range. The C&LS engines were quiet on filtered DC but they were noisy on full wave DC and noisy with DCC decoders using PWM frequencies in the audible range. As far as I could determine, the only decoders with a high PWM frequency Zimo decoders that used a crystal to generate a 16 KHz PWM frequency. I installed Zimo decoders and the locos were reasonably quiet.

 

The Zimo MX65S decoders have back EMF but it didn't work very well with the C&LS coasting drive and I wasn't satisfied with the speed control I could get. I discussed this with Henry and he graciously came to my house on the way to a meet, GAVE me three Globe gearhead motors and installed two of them before he had to leave. I installed the third Globe motor. The locos are much more controllable with the Globe motors. The Globe motors draw much lower current and I am planning to replace the Zimo control decoders and Soundtraxx DSX sound deocoders with Tsunamis in these locos.

 

The first photo shows a 4-6-6-4 mechanism and boiler with a Globe motor installed. The original Pittman motor is in front of the mechanism. The loco is easy to take apart. There are only 4 screws, two at the back of the cab and two that hold the rear engine cylinders to the frame.

 

Larry Kline

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  Now that is the way to build a mechanism.

Regarding prices, here is a link to an archived copy of the ordering page on the C&LS web site:

http://web.archive.org/web/201...otive.com/order.html

 

The price for the 4-8-4 was originally $3000 for a painted model and had been lowered to $2500

 

The price for the 4-6-6-4 was originally $4000 for a painted model. I think the order page price of $3100 is for an unpainted model

 

These models don't show up very often on ebay but there have been 3 of each that I know about. Here are the prices and dates. These were all painted models.

 

 

Larry Kline

The WM 4-8-4 Henrys first model did not sell well at all, despite the high quality there were just not enough buyers for the model and eventually the prices were reduced. In todays market an occasional model can command a premium price. Today the word is out as to the high quality of these models.

I had no idea Henry installed his own drives. Wow, that is going to great lengths to make sure they run right, I sure wish he'd done some Western roads.

 

In viewing one of the photos it looks like this loco had a working equalized suspension similar to the Sofue and KTM-USA locos.  Is this correct?  

 

Great photos Erik!

 

Butch

I can't comment on the C&O H-6. The WM 4-8-4 and 4-6-6-4 models have individually sprung drivers but they aren't equalized. The springs are pretty stiff, especially on the geared axles. I don't think they help tracking and tractive effort a lot. However, both the 4-8-4 and the 4-6-6-4 can easily pull 16 car trains (the train design length for my layout) up my 2% grades.

 

Larry Kline

Nice pictures that really show off the level of detail on this engine.  Sadly it's out of reach of the vast majority of modelers and mere mortals.

Henry was a true gift to the community.

I would love to meet him someday.

Thanks for the nice compliments guys I'm glad you enjoy the photos.

Henry's drives are so good, they free roll with no power on! It is a shame Henry has left the business. Not a big line out the door to take his place.

Where can I obtain globe gearhead motors for O Scale Locomotives and what model number would you recommend?

Thank you for your help.

 

Hi,

Does anybody on this forum know the whereqbouts of how to get in touch with Henry??  Please advise and thanks!

 

Ted Michaels

 

When Henry delivered one of his engines to me, he told me that he originally ordered only 45 WM Potomacs (4-8-4), essentially just enough to satisfy the number of reservations he had received.  After the builder delivered the 45 models, he told Henry that he had the castings and other parts for another 45 models.  Henry could take them or he could sell them at a discount to the highest bidder  Henry had no choice, and he was had in the process.

Wes Morgenstern

Why did he not have a choice? And if he did buy them, what did he then do?  Junk them?

 

 

That model has finer detail than the Prototype! (Impossible, of course!)

 

But I'm new here...so who's Henry?

 

Bad Order Hal

 

We were doing some road freight running on a friend's railroad last week and I was amazed to see that 3 MU'd C&LS  diesels (two RS16's and a RSD7) would stall with a 24 car freight on a 1.75% grade.  We're not talking wheel slip - but actual motor/drive train stall! They could make it up the grade if we made a medium to high speed run at the hill, but repeatedly stalled when running at typical freight train speed. The train was free rolling with cars nominally weighted around NMRA spec.  Operating singularly the C&LS  diesels exhibit similar low tractive effort.  On the same railroad three Overland Sharks can handle 30+ cars smoothly.  TE aside, the C&LS units are beautifully built and are smooth runners. My friend is now planning to replace the motors in all his C&LS diesels as their performance is unacceptable for service on his railroad.  Has anyone else found similar issues with C&LS diesels?

 

Ed Rappe

In many and maybe most cases the engines were delivered by Henry even on the west coat and ask if you did not have a layout could you barrow one so he could take you thru the engine run in and make sure it ran perfectly. Great engnes. Ed

Thanks for sharing the photos of this loco. The cab detail is beyond nice.

One time Henry told me that he had been called repeatedly because a buyer in the Denver area complained about shorts in one of the WM engines.  He gave him several tips on where to look for the short, but the buyer still complained.  Finally, Henry flew to Denver and inspected the engine.  The problem was only a brake shoe touching a tire on the left side, something the buyer could have easily fixed.  He said that from that point on, he intended to delivery each model to confirm that it operated properly.

 

Also, to clarify one point, Boo Rim did not build the two WM models.

Oops,  in a hurry this morning and typed unexceptional instead of exceptional.  That's what happens when I was in a hurry.  I don't know if this has been asked earlier but how many of these were built?

Not sure where you got that information, but both locos were indeed built by Boo Rim Precision. To the best of my knowledge, the only "O" locomotive Henry imported not done by Boo Rim was the SP 5000 done by LiK enterprises.

 

Simon

both of my Western Maryland J1 and M2 models state

"MADE IN KOREA BY BOO-RIM PRECISION CO INC"

on the box.

 

Ed-

Regarding your disappointment with C&LS diesel tractive effort, I can confirm that they are not strong pullers. Perhaps some extra weight would help, something that I have not yet tried.

 

Years ago Henry personally delivered a pair of undec RS-11s and brought his wheel re-gaging tool to tweak several other locomotives already in my possession. During his visit I inquired about his drive train design, as I was a bit disappointed with their propensity for jack-rabbit starts. Henry said that he used a very low gear ratio, 6:1 if I recall, and a "24 volt Pittman motor" so that they would "really feel the grades." This may explain why they require a lot more throttle when pulling upgrade.

 

Because Henry removed Pittman's motor labels it is difficult to confirm that they are 24 volt. Evidence suggests they may be a motor intended for far more than 24 volts. While testing stall current (locked rotor) with a laboratory DC supply, I consistently measured only 1.1 amps in one locomotive and 1.15 in another at 12.0 volts. The 12 volt 8224 Pittman has a rated stall current of 10.3 amps, the 24 volt 5.54 amps, and the 48 volt model rated at 2.82 amps. None of these agree with the measured current.

 

So what exactly is the motor? I don't know, since it doesn't match published data for the usual motors available in the 8xxx case sizes. If anyone has more information, would you be willing to share it? 

Good questions Ed and Bob, I would like to know more about these motors & drives.  However, regarding your TE issue--if the drive train is stalling now, adding weight won't help.  I was always told that the loco should be light enough to slip when overloaded.  A loco weighted to stall at full load risks overheating motors, decoders, power supplies, etc.

Yes, Ted, I misread and assumed the wheels were slipping.

 

Curiously, I get wheel slip on my RS11s, RSD12s, RS32 and RS36, when running with a DCC decoder and 14.5 V track voltage (about 12 V max to the motor.) To measure stall current on an RSD12 and an RS36 I had to push each locomotives down and against the track with my hand.