Conventional v. Command

Another thoughtful subject, Arnold.

I still like to "Pull the levers to make 'em go", though.

I love the e-unit buzz and the bicycle horn sounds

The smoke rings from the old steamers do it for me.

I usually run 'em as fast as they can go without falling off the tracks.

I love magne-traction.

With my tubular track (O42, O54 and O72 curves), derailments are very rare

I'm so used to PostWar Lionel's "selectively compressed" trains, that scale trains just look wrong to me (especially GG1's)

In any case, to all of us, run what you enjoy just keep running them!

@Lionelski posted:

Another thoughtful subject, Arnold.

I still like to "Pull the levers to make 'em go", though.

I love the e-unit buzz and the bicycle horn sounds

The smoke rings from the old steamers do it for me.

I usually run 'em as fast as they can go without falling off the tracks.

I love magne-traction.

With my tubular track (O42, O54 and O72 curves), derailments are very rare

I'm so used to PostWar Lionel's "selectively compressed" trains, that scale trains just look wrong to me (especially GG1's)

In any case, to all of us, run what you enjoy just keep running them!

John, I agree with much of what you say about Postwar, especially the charm of postwar steamers puffing rings of smoke and I also like magnetraction. I also like the smell of ozone, and the nostalgia that postwar evokes.

I suspect you have done a much better job than me with your tubular track work, and the wider than 031 curves you have probably makes a huge difference for avoiding derailments.

I have space constraints (long narrow space) and opted for reverse loops that necessitate my 031 curves.

An ambitious future project for me would be to replace my 031 curves with wider radius curves by eliminating the reverse loops.

Like you, I also prefer the compressed traditional size over scale size trains and the compressed ones derail less often than scale ones on my layout.

Arnold

The curves are the key Arnold, …..tight O31 curves make the equipment work harder to get through those curves. Older locomotives such as your PW favorites have to be whizzing at near breakneck speeds just not to stall. Your command equipped engines maintain the speed for you, and constantly adjust, even in tight curves,…..I do hope you get the chance to go to wider curves…..you’ll really notice the difference dramatically……believe it or not, I’m in your camp, I have the capability to do both, command & conventional on my layout, but with 099 minimum curves, even in conventional my trains cruise at extremely slow speeds as if they were in command….you’ll more than likely kick yourself if you do go bigger,….simply for not doing it sooner………😉

Pat

I haven't noticed any difference in derailments.  But, when one of my Lionel ABA diesel sets does derail in a manner that causes the whole set to roll over, you pick it up and put it back, while on my MTH ABA set, the coupler shank snaps off, the shank that is cast as part of the truck.  Necessity is a mother, and figured out a way to repair them without having to buy a new truck, along with being really careful on curves.

Great point Arnold !   This is why I'm trying to keep my trackwork as perfect as I can while I build my 8 x 20 ft layout.  Testing, testing, testing...

I enjoyed my conventional equipment, but I've gone all command nowadays.  Other than some left over rolling stock, I don't really own any pre-war or post-war, all the locomotives have gone.

As for stuff derailing where I can't reach, I can reach most stuff, frequently from outside the layout with these, I got them on Amazon.

GRJ,

Any idea how much weight these can reasonably handle? Or what you would not attempt to use them on?

- Ken

I'm incredibly lucky to have space for a large layout - my main line curves are 128 on the outer track, something like 095 on the inner main. My track is Ross. Every layout comes with issues (like cleaning track... LOL), but derailments just don't happen on my pike. Keep the curves gentle if you can!

I would recommend you give the Postwar Celebration items a try. Traditional size plus command control.

They aren't can motors but I think they do run smoothly. At least mine do.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

.....

Most of my local model railroader friends are selling most of their postwar conventional engines. I may decide to do the same.

Would love to know what you Forum folks think about this issue.

Arnold

Arnold,

Knowing how you like your postwar engines, I think you should keep them.

Both of my layouts (12'-by-8' and 10'-by-5') were wired for conventional operation. The smaller one is just a single-track O-54 oval and the larger one is 25 years old with three independent loops - O-72, O-54 and O-36. I'm content just to turn on the track power and let the trains run. In my opinion, modern speed controlled locomotives (which are most of what I have) run quite well conventionally on well-laid track.

As for command control, I don't need whatever additional features it offers. Why would I need it on a single O-54 loop? I got into model railroading because I like trains and railroads - not to tinker with electronics or software. I'm not interested in rewiring two layouts that operate perfectly under conventional control or having to diagnose problems with command electronics. With my conventional layouts, I just turn on the transformers and I'm running trains - every time.

Having said that, I fully recognize that the present and future of model railroading is command control. So, have at it...

MELGAR

I like to have representation in my roster of every era of model trains as possible. So maybe sell off some postwar but keep your favorites.

No rush on making this decision either.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I enjoyed my conventional equipment, but I've gone all command nowadays.  Other than some left over rolling stock, I don't really own any pre-war or post-war, all the locomotives have gone.

As for stuff derailing where I can't reach, I can reach most stuff, frequently from outside the layout with these, I got them on Amazon.

@Ken Gillig posted:

GRJ,

Any idea how much weight these can reasonably handle? Or what you would not attempt to use them on?

- Ken

A key aspect of these tools is the type of gripper tips.  There are at least 3 versions (as pictured above, "suction cup" without any suction, and a soft nubby type); I have one as pictured above and one with the "suction cups".  Some versions also allow you to rotate the handle 90 degrees.  In my experience, the challenge using them is not a weight limitation so much as it's a matter of being able to get a good grip on the item without putting pressure on any fragile details.  It's fairly easy to lift a box car, but lifting a steam engine would be a challenge.  You would also need two to handle a steamer/tender or multiple unit diesel that are tethered together.  Picking up small items can be challenging.

My actual usage is mostly for picking up cars, scenery items, and dropped parts and tools.

Fortunately, they're not expensive so you can try each type to see what you prefer.

I don't know while I am definitely in the command group, there is definitely a charm of the e units and ozone.  I don't think I'd sell off everything.  You will regret it .  Like anything else sell off the ones that no longer interest you.  Maybe designate them to certain tracks that are less problematic.  I have a few PW pieces that I run and will not part with.  I just keep them on trackage that I know they run well on.

Arnold, I hear you regarding the challenges you're contemplating.  I'm actually leaning back toward conventional control - postwar/MPC engines have dropped in price, and they're so much easier to troubleshoot.  Another consideration if your trackwork is problematic is that you really need good circuit protection and TVS diodes to avoid frying the electronics when an engine jumps the track (don't ask how I learned this ).

The comments about wider curves are spot on if you want to run command locos - even if they'll run on O31, they'll run much better on wider curves. 

It's possible that you'll be running trains for another 10 or 20 years.  If you plan to remain in your current home, perhaps you could reconfigure portions of your benchwork to accommodate some wider curves.  There's no time like the present...

Not to mention, command requires less wiring. Switches, uncouplers, etc. powered by the track.

Another thought re using tubular track with command control (or modern engines running conventionally)...  In my experience, tubular track is fine but the switches (and crossovers) can be problematic.  Engines tend to bounce over switches and generate sparks and brief shorts - these are hard on modern engines, and it's why TVS diodes are needed.

@Mallard4468 posted:

A key aspect of these tools is the type of gripper tips.  There are at least 3 versions (as pictured above, "suction cup" without any suction, and a soft nubby type); I have one as pictured above and one with the "suction cups".  Some versions also allow you to rotate the handle 90 degrees.  In my experience, the challenge using them is not a weight limitation so much as it's a matter of being able to get a good grip on the item without putting pressure on any fragile details.  It's fairly easy to lift a box car, but lifting a steam engine would be a challenge.  You would also need two to handle a steamer/tender or multiple unit diesel that are tethered together.  Picking up small items can be challenging.

My actual usage is mostly for picking up cars, scenery items, and dropped parts and tools.

Fortunately, they're not expensive so you can try each type to see what you prefer.

IMO, suction cups would be pretty useless most of the time, mine has the soft rubber pads to grip.  For light stuff, I just pick it up.  For stuff like steam, I primarily would use them to move it to were I could reach it.  I don't need them often, but they have proved very useful at times.  Mine extend, and also the jaws do rotate 90 degrees.  I previously had some that didn't extend, but these extend and also have a better grip, so I demoted the previous set to the kitchen closet for grabbing stuff that falls behind furniture.

Tubular track can be wired for constant current, but you must use switches that can accommodate command control.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I’ve had conventional postwar Lionel since the age of 2, modern conventional (MTH PS1 and some Lionel) since my early 40s starting in the early 1990s, and command (LC+, a few Legacy and many MTH PS 2 and 3 running on the DCS remote system) since 2020.

Until recently, I’ve enjoyed running both conventional and command depending on my mood.

During the past 2 months I’ve made recent renovations to my layout and do my best to avoid derailments because of my age and greater difficulty accessing a couple of sections of my layout.

I can access those difficult to reach sections because I have a removable river. Problem is that in order for me to remove it, I have to spend a few hours cleaning up the mess and then putting things back in place, which is a PIA.

Last night I got into a nostalgic postwar mood. When I ran my baby Hudson 2065 and my 736 Berkshire, I did so with trepidation. They derailed in a couple of close to reach sections, which is not a problem, but I opted not to even attempt to run them in the difficult to reach sections. I had more confidence running my postwar 773 Hudson, but oldid so only on the easy to access sections of my layout.

Command is a huge game changer on my layout, which has postwar tubular track with 031 curves and 022 switches. When I run trains pulled by command engines, I rarely, if ever, get a derailment because they run so smoothly and evenly at prototypical slow speeds. Such is not the case with trains headed by conventional postwar engines that often derail.

Most of my local model railroader friends are selling most of their postwar conventional engines. I may decide to do the same.

Would love to know what you Forum folks think about this issue.

Arnold

I still run conventional, nothing like the feel of moving those levers on one of my original ZW transformers. It just brings me back. I do confess I have non command sections just for the ease of operation and it keeps it simple.

How can you move forward?  When you forget where you came from?

PennCentralShops

Arnold, you could have easily changed the title to “Old vs New” or “AC motor vs DC Motor”. Wider curves would solve your problem but you have two strikes against you now. Your 70 year old engines are worn and AC motors, even universal types have lower torque at low RPMs than permanent magnet motors. Thats why you have to run them at higher speeds to make it around the curves. Just like 70 year old autos with miles on them a total rebuild would help a lot. New axle and gear bushings, maybe new axles along with brush plates will lessen the loses.

Another option is DC motor replacements like Williams reproductions. You loose some of the nostalgia but get smoother running. You can still couple your Williams steam to post war tenders for the air whistle. And you still have a choice to keep them conventional or add command.

Pete

When I got back into the hobby I started with conventional a few post war steamers, a NW-2, etc. My layout is small with 027 curves. The buzz from the switch solenoids (5121,22's), is probably my most aggravating issue. At conventional voltages, it's not too bad but at 18v it's very loud and very annoying. I've managed to dampen most of them down to the point that I can actually hear the engine sounds.......

I run mostly command engines these days but still love the conventional stuff.

As to track work, my layout has been pretty good, definitely some issues with the switches but I've managed to solve most of them. When this layout goes, larger curves and Ross switches will replace it.

For your layout Arnold, I think if you can find a way to widen the curves at each end and eliminate or lengthen the reverse loops you will get greater enjoyment from running your trains.

Bob

I have two post war locos from my childhood plus a more modern ROW dockside switcher with no possibility of a command upgrade.  These see track time by flipping the switch on my vintage power master.   Everything else is either command or slated for a command upgrade.  I am intrigued by deadrail however, one loco has been modified,  one or two more may go that route. 

@RSJB18 posted:

I run mostly command engines these days but still love the conventional stuff.

I'm with Bob on this. I have some nice tinplate/postwar conventional from my childhood that I love operating.  Additionally, Kline and RMT conventional engines are a hassle free joy to run on my layout, and with DCS, I  can operate them on a track in variable mode while simultaneously running engines on the other tracks in command mode.  If's refreshing not having to worry about blown boards or other electronic failures .  In fact, I'm currently hunting down some conventional engines from my childhood that didn't survive to add to my collection.  Get that track fixed Arnold and enjoy your entire fleet!

100% command.  I have no nostalgia for toy trains since I did not have any as a kid. My older brother and farther-in-law had conventional Pre-War Marx and Post War Lionel, and while it was fun to be with them the trains did nothing for me as they just went around and around.  Then I bought an early TMCC engine for my father-in-law and that was so much better; slower speed and switching while being near the engine.  AND SOUND!  I have several inherited conventional engines that have not been on track in decades, and probably will not until after I am gone.

Both types of locomotives have their pluses and minuses.

The conventional locomotives will pretty much run no matter what, albeit the older ones may need more maintenance overtime. Most of my collection of conventional is postwar and pre-TMCC era modern Lionel. As much as I love the new sounds, it's nice to go back to when sounds were very simple. A big plus on the old school RailSounds 1/2 will last pretty much forever as long as you protect them from amperage spikes, and require little to no maintenance compared to a postwar air whistle or bicycle horn.

The command locomotives definitely perform better. When the electronics work, that is. Speed control hardware is a huge blessing I think we take a bit for granted today. Even better when today's locomotive's have better power pickups so they don't die or drop into neutral whenever they run over dirty track or the dead spots on switches. That's something I really love about current MTH and Lionel LEGACY.

Arnold, like you I also have O-31 on my layout. I don’t have reversing loops because I just don’t have room to accommodate them with everything else on my layout. If eliminating them solves a few problems, I’d encourage you to do it. I have found that I don’t really miss them.

The other option would be to fix whatever’s causing the derailments. I know that’s maybe more easily said than done, but on those occasions when I wire up conventional controls to my layout, my MPC locomotives don’t derail any more than my command ones (although the same can’t be said for the rolling stock).  

Best of luck whatever you decide.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

IMO, suction cups would be pretty useless most of the time, mine has the soft rubber pads to grip.  ...

Absolutely right!  That's why I put "suction cups" in quotes.  They are a bit more gentle than the other jaws, but gentle isn't a good thing if it causes the item to be dropped.

The suction cup version is useful for picking up hand tools that have a large handle, such as screwdrivers and hammers, so I keep that one in the workshop.  It's also useful for grabbing boxes off a shelf.

Mine has soft rubber pads, they're quite pliable and get a good grip without a lot of force.  Obviously, you can modulate the grip based on how hard you squeeze at the other end.  Truthfully, it's pretty hard to actually get enough force at the gripping end to crush anything but a pretty fragile piece.  The sponginess of the cable and handle mechanism seems to limit the gripping force.

@harmonyards posted:

The curves are the key Arnold, …..tight O31 curves make the equipment work harder to get through those curves. Older locomotives such as your PW favorites have to be whizzing at near breakneck speeds just not to stall. Your command equipped engines maintain the speed for you, and constantly adjust, even in tight curves,…..I do hope you get the chance to go to wider curves…..you’ll really notice the difference dramatically……believe it or not, I’m in your camp, I have the capability to do both, command & conventional on my layout, but with 099 minimum curves, even in conventional my trains cruise at extremely slow speeds as if they were in command….you’ll more than likely kick yourself if you do go bigger,….simply for not doing it sooner………😉

Pat

Yes - it's partly just the curves (and particularly bad gearing on some locos - and I'm looking at you, Williams die-cast scale NYC Hudson). I've made the wisecrack that a perfect layout has no grades, no curves and no switches.

My command moment  came when I borrowed a friend's command base to operate my then-new Lionel Warhorse N&W J set in the 90's. All of a sudden, I perceived that I was running the locomotive, not running the track. This made all the difference. So much more enjoyable. I do have some conventional locos, but they seldom get run.

Ironically, though, that Warhorse J is one of the worse-running locos I've ever had. Pullmors can run well, but this loco never finds a right speed, even with my 072 curves. The TMCC still works flawlessly after 25+ years, though - and the sound is among the best, even today - if you excuse the chuff rate, which I could fix, but.....

Yes another great post, Arnold. My 2 cents: no way I’m retiring my 2026, tender, and consist. Not only is it a legacy  from my Dad, it’s the engine I run first for guests. Blow the whistle before pulling out, then watch the cool smoke rings  puff and float up. Then move on to modern command units with voices.
Have both wide and tight curves on my layout of tubular track. Also have a long grabber like GRG’s for long tunnels.
Run and enjoy both modern and vintage units!!

Michael

@Arnold D. Cribari I'm guessing your real issue is not conventional vs. command, but how to reliably operate your beloved PW trains on your current layout.

Given that much of your equipment does not derail, it suggests focusing on the equipment. I have a 1940 1668E that belonged to my dad that derailed frequently on the straight leg of an O22 switch. It was the pilot truck. The flat copper spring had lost tension. I took it apart, bent the spring, reassembled, and it ran fine. BTW, it showed evidence that my dad had done the same thing decades ago.

It runs on the minimum voltage a PW transformer puts out through 031 curves. If your track is clean, your loco pickups are clean, loco and rolling stock are lubricated, and you have enough center rail feeders, you should be able to reliably operate PW locos/trains on your layout at speeds that won't derail.

Lionel built these as toys for boys. They were designed and built to operate reliably. The fact that many still do 80+ years after manufacture suggests the issue is not lack of command control.

Arnold, it's been awhile.

In my house, a standard reply is, "Can't we have both?"  Like many of us, I started with my fathers' conventional from the 50's and 60's.  I have a great nostalgia for all of it, especially those SF Warbonnet F-3's.  As a kid, we had a large Lionel layout with all kinds of operating accessories.  Much of it was stolen later on, as we moved and everything was boxed in large TV console boxes which were stored in my parents television store basement.  When I started my own family and bought a house, my dad and I retrieved what was left and built a huge attic layout in 1985.  I was able to replace most of the missing trains.

Years later, with the kids grown, I saw an ad for Lionel's reproduction of the Warbonnet F-3 AA engines.  I couldn't resist owning brand new, pristine conventional units. The rest is family train history.

I got into MTH in 2014, when I had the idea to build a ceiling layout around the center of our rec room.  Double-tracked, it is 100 feet around.  There are a few relatively tight turns that would be best served by command and control speeds.

I really love the MTH engines, and when that project was done I added two more levels to the large layout.  With limited space on that one, I could only build up.  The top two levels are occupied by one 1948 SF conventional and three Lionchief 2's.  I also converted half of that layout to DCS because the bottom two conventional tracks climbed from one level to another and it made sense to have them run smoother going up and down the levels.  I'm currently running conventional SF and UP engines.  The UP stays at table level and the pristine SF stays at level 2.  There are two bump and run trolleys that are able to go up and down, over and across.

In terms of your post, it's a challenge controlling 9 moving trains on the table layout.  IMO, when I made the adjustments to simply running sections in loops I've had very few derailments, and I really don't need to operate my twenty-two 022 switches very often.  The effect of all of them going at the same time came out as impressive as I'd hoped.  It could never have been done without the five engines that are command and control.  There is also no way I'm gonna let my beloved Santa Fe and Union Pacific conventionals sit idle during a session.

The bi-weekly poker group of 35 years, has enjoyed the ceiling layout for the past 10 years.  I run 4 DCS consists up there, almost 100 cars.  No way to connect the two layouts, but also no way to enjoy the trains if I had to worry about monitoring 13 of them at once.

So....my answer is yes!  Yes, we CAN have both.

Jerry

Thanks again to all who have contributed here.

My layout has issues that, if remedied, could reduce derailments, such as tight 031 curves and less than perfectly clean track. However, most of my command engines rarely, if ever, derail.

This is especially true of diesels.

An example is shown in the video below of an MTH NY Central GP9 hauling 15 inch Kline and Lionel Madison Heavyweight passenger cars:

The diesels also rarely, if ever, need to have a traction tire replaced.

The command steamers run with minimal derailments on my layout, but tend to derail more often than the command diesels, and the steamers need traction tires replaced more often than the diesels.

The small steamers derail less often than the big steamers. The video below shows an ideal command steamer for my layout and it never derails. It’s an MTH PS3 Long Island B6 steam switcher:

Arnold