Cycle Timer Needed

The one you linked looks like it will do just about everything. I don't quite understand the other module they say may be needed? But I don't understand much else of what they are saying either? Might have to get one myself, to test out on the bench and see what happens. I enjoy tinkering with these electronic gadgets.

 

I believe these (link below) were posted in another thread about doing something similar. I ordered a couple just to see what they would do (same type of directions as your linked item). As I recall they do both a delay to turn on and delay to turn off and times are adjustable. They are cheap enough to order and test with anyway. They are DC, but I think they may do what you want and you can also get inexpensive DC power supplies (AC to DC converters) on ebay. Possibly even from the same supplier?

 

DC 12V delay relay delay Turn on / Turn off switch module with timer

 

Forum members stan2004 and gunrunnerjohn (and others) are much better at interpreting the descriptions (and your application). Maybe they will be along shortly to clarify.

This one looks great...low price, etc.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V...;hash=item2ed5a5d09e

and it has a schematic of how it operates in the listing...

Well, the first thing I'd do is buy a 12V DC regulated wall-wart adapter with a coax to screw-terminal adapter so you have electrically isolated 12V DC on 2-wires.  Or you can just cut the wall-wart cable and strip the wires.  If you don't have one already, the wall-warts are maybe $2 on eBay and the screw-terminal adapters are maybe 50 cents.

 

IMO, an electrically isolated 12V DC supply is the key to taking advantage of these eBay timer modules which all seem to operate on 12V DC.  Plus, since you apparently need multiple timer modules for different accessories, one of these wall-warts will easily supply the required power to all.

 

I'd think you'd ideally only want to buy 1 timer module type for all your accessories to keep it simple.  I think the trick to your Coyote application is you want either a momentary trigger (less than 30 seconds) or a sustained trigger (longer than 30 seconds) to only activate the accessory for 30 seconds.  That is, just an engine speeding through the isolated rail section in a couple seconds or a consist parked on the isolated rail section (when reloading barrels) should activate the accessory only once for 30 seconds and turn off.  For the ridiculously low price of these modules, I like what rtr12 says....just buy one and check it out.  Trying to second-guess or come to a definitive conclusion based on the incomprehensible eBay descriptions is a waste of time. 

 

The "other module" that rtr12 asks about appears to be needed if you want to trigger the module with a low-level (ground) trigger.  That is, the write-ups for your module and the one cjack found appear to want a hi-level (+12V) trigger.  As you know, most guys wire their isolated-rail sections to supply a low-level (ground) trigger since our outer-rails are ground.  That's why I say a 12V DC electrically-isolated supply would be my first step since this allows you to supply either kind of trigger (hi-level or low-level) using isolated-rail sections.  That is, you power the eBay modules with the 12V DC from the wall-wart...and then put either +12V or ground on the outer rail.

 

 

Thanks guys, I am inspired to roll the dice and buy one of these gizmos to check out.  One thing I would like any additional advice about.,..I have been using a common 14vac from a kw for auxiliary stuff and taking that through a full bridge rectifier with a capacitor on the dc side to provide my dc needs.  this has been enough to get me about 12vdc in general for various traditional relays to operate...but....I am using a common ground for everything (ac and dc). To avoid the isolated DC supply problem, I guess I could use the isolated rail to turn on the ac to the wilee coyote sub system we are describing and let it operate from there?  does that make sense?  So:

1) 14vac turned on to bridge rectifier through isolated rail.

2) bridge rectifier + cap 12vdc to ebay item.....

3) relay on ebay item controls cycle times for wilee coyote and turns off after  30 secs.

If you want to stay with switching "ground" through the isolated rails then note that some/most of these eBay modules are triggered by a high-level signal.  So that's where you'd use the "other module" described in rtr12's link to convert a low-level (ground) trigger to a high-level (+12V).  While expedient, I chuckle at using a 10 Amp relay module to switch maybe 0.01 Amps of current to effect this.  If you don't mind soldering small parts, a resistor and PNP transistor can perform low to high conversion for, say, 15 cents.

We purchased these for the multiple accessories that are on a layout we are restoring. They'll be used for user activated buttons. But, how they are triggered is up to you.

 

DC12V Relay

Those look identical to the ones I have (above link), only different Asian supplier. Shipping on yours was less.

So there's no confusion, the eBay modules that hokie71 and cjack show have a 3-terminal "input" while the one's Moonman and rtr12 refer to have only 2-terminals.  The 3-terminal type is needed for the original application.  That is 2 terminals are +12V DC and Ground which supply power to the module, and the 3rd is the trigger or control input.  Power must be supplied to the module even after the trigger (isolated rail) is long gone.

 

The 2-terminal input modules have just +12V DC and Ground as inputs.  They'll work to delay turn on or turn off but only as long as the power is present.  So game over as soon as the train passes out of the isolated-rail section and the Ground input is lost.

Thanks, Stan, I was distracted and didn't read the thread carefully.  

Stan's comments are on the money.  I bought one of the ebay models mentioned in the thread above and it should arrive in two or  more weeks (is it possible this little thing is in a container ship????- we love logistics!).

I will update on what it does and does not do for solving this problem.

Followed cjack and stan2004's advice myself, and ordered a couple of the ones cjack linked this morning. I like to tinker with this stuff. Not near the investment the trains are and for me just as fun. With enough tinkering, I might even learn how some of it works someday and put something to use around here. The one from your original post was also very tempting, but I was able to resist. So far anyway. 

 

They come in the mail, USPS. Packages are marked China Post or something like that and a lot of the label info is in Chinese type writing. A lot of these suppliers also offer free shipping on many items. Some items take 3-4 weeks, but usually mine arrive in about 7-10 days. No idea how they do it?

For $8, I couldn't resist.  I found this slightly (not much) improved translation of the 18 functions:

https://thingiverse-production...M01__User_Manual.pdf

 

For double the price it looks like you can get it thru Amazon and "fulfilled by Amazon" which presumably means you'd get it faster than that container ship!

 

http://www.amazon.com/VvW-Newe...y+cycle+timer+module

 

The Amazon listing has some user reviews.  I found several youtube videos of these modules in action but nothing specific to isolated-rail triggering of O-gauge accessories.  What fascinates me is someone had to dream up the 18 functions and presumably had something in mind as to what it would be used for - some have obvious application but the latter ones are pretty bizarre.

I was also very fascinated by the many functions and what they could be used for. I have no idea what I am doing most of the time, but I love tinkering with these things. You are really ruining my will power to resist the forbidden fruit here! I was doing so well too, until now...guess I better go place an order.

 

Pretty soon I am going to have more of these gizmos than I have trains, but at least they take up a lot less space and are much easier to hide.

 

Edit:

Oh boy, now I found this one when I went to place my order: Two Relay Version

This is one of the sneaky places that has a large shipping charge to cover up the low starting price.

I think stan2004 must have gotten the last one of those. I found this one from the same supplier and it's on the way. Then I found the 2 relay version, I am going to be very strong and resist this one!

I had not noticed the 2 channel version.  Hmmm.  But from what I can tell it is simply 2 single channel versions that operate independently not doing anything special between the two channels.  So other than two boards vs. one and a modest cost savings, the 2 channel doesn't bring anything to the party.

 

The road ahead is to wring this sucker out specifically for isolated-rail triggering and layout accessory applications.  At first glance, one may think the digital precision is a gimmick and what's wrong with the "analog" timing modules we've used for decades.  I'm thinking the digital precision will allow clever actions with multiple timing modules since you could set up precise sequences of events for not much money.  Let the good times roll!

 

 

 

I found the two channel version while I was searching for another one like you had gotten. These things have a nasty way of finding me! I'm sure you will be WAY ahead of me in the wringing out process. Please post your findings when that happens. There will probably be some things I don't get figured out at all and some only partially. I have learned a lot around here from you guys, but still have a long way to go. 

Regarding 1) above.  As I understand it, the 14VAC is from the KW.  You go thru a bridge rectifier and then tie the "-" output of the bridge to the outer rail common?  I am not familiar with the KW internal wiring.  This only works if the commons on the KW are isolated.  Is this true?

 

2nd question, how are you generating 12V DC to power the timer module.

 

I received my FRM01 timing module.  It is very cool.  Your application would be Function 12 - where it will run for 30 seconds and stop even if the train sits on the block.  The traditional block occupancy delay would be Function 10 - where the relay is held as long as the train sits on the block and then for 30 seconds once it clears the block.

 

The module requires a "high" level trigger.  If you clarify your isolated rail power sources and/or how you are using a bridge rectifier and generating 12V DC, I will suggest how you can trigger the FRM01 module.

Stan,  The timer module I bought arrived yesterday and I plan to fool with it today or tomorrow.  Here is what I will be working with in using it:

1) Here is the picture of my KW wiring.  the blue is 6V I use for my oil barrel loader. the purple is for my accessories (14v) and the yellow is for my switch plugs (14v).  I only use a single common on the KW (terminal C) which shares a common ground with three Z-1000s).  

2) To get the timer I bought to work,  I plan to somehow integrate with the poorly drawn circuit in the pdf.  this DC relay circuit is one a number of the guys on the forum use.  It shows a sketch of how I laid out small pieces of plywood with the items including a terminal strip on it.  I used 12vdc automotive relays which are only SPDT.

 

Ideas welcome!

In the context of your diagram, the simplest "brute-force" approach would be to insert the timer modules in place of your existing automotive relay.  Then you would use Function 02 at set T1=30 seconds on the FRM01 Timer Module.  In Function 02, when power is applied to the module, the immediately close and stays closed for 30 seconds, then opens.  Of course if you remove power anytime during that period, the relay immediately opens too.  In other words, this does what you have today except it limits the maximum "on-timer" to 30 seconds for the case where the train stops on the isolated-rail section.  No "trigger" input is needed so the only "inputs" to the module are DC+ and DC- which comes from the bridge.

 

BUT, unlike the the typical 12VDC automotive relay, the 12V relays used on these electronic timer modules are not so forgiving.  Your circuit as drawn puts maybe 17-18VDC across the 12V relay which is generally "in spec" for many automotive 12VDC relays.  The Songle relay used on the FRM01 module is less forgiving and is specified for a maximum coil voltage of 13.2VDC as shown below:

 

So you should put in some kind of voltage regulator to reduce the 17-18VDC from your bridge before it gets to the Timer Module.  You can buy regulator modules off eBay for $1-2 shipped or roll your own (if you don't mind component-level soldering) for about the same price.

 

In any event I stand by my original suggestion that when messing with these 12V timer modules, the best is to generate a dedicated 12VDC power source so that the module(s) always have power.  Then the timing action is "triggered" by a signal whether it be from an isolated-rail section, a manual push-button activation switch, whatever.  So you build/buy the 12VDC power source one-time that services one or many timer modules, and then deal with the triggering function on a case-by-case.  I totally get that this "triggering" is not the easiest thing to get your arms around since it involves minding power-supply isolation, commons, paying attention to AC vs. DC, and other arcane techno-babble so it's not for everyone.  

Stan, thanks for the suggestions and I will put in a DC loop, it will give a lot of future flexibility.  My big question is what you found was an adequate signal for triggering this gizmo. What appears to be the range of triggering signals- seems like just going to ground would not be sufficient? Thanks.

 

In any event I stand by my original suggestion that when messing with these 12V timer modules, the best is to generate a dedicated 12VDC power source so that the module(s) always have power.  Then the timing action is "triggered" by a signal whether it be from an isolated-rail section, a manual push-button activation switch, whatever.  So you build/buy the 12VDC power source one-time that services one or many timer modules, and then deal with the triggering function on a case-by-case.  I totally get that this "triggering" is not the easiest thing to get your arms around since it involves minding power-supply isolation, commons, paying attention to AC vs. DC, and other arcane techno-babble so it's not for everyone.  

 

If you have an isolated 12V DC power source, like the $2 eBay wall-wart shown earlier, it can be as "simple" as what's shown above.  I admit getting one's arms around mixing AC and isolated DC can make your head explode!  But the whole point of isolation is the two circuits, 1) AC train transformer main power and 2) isolated DC timer/accessory power do not "know" that the other exists and each merrily goes about its way.  Note the $2 eBay wall-wart (12V DC, 1 Amp) can power over a dozen Timer Modules or a mix of Timer Modules and other layout devices such as LED lighting which requires DC.

 

In this case, the DC+ signal is connected to the outer track common.  When an axle crosses the isolated-section it feeds the DC+ signal to the Timer Module trigger input and off you go.  As mentioned earlier, the FRM01 Module requires a "high" trigger (more than about 3V according to the instruction sheet).  Some modules require a "low" trigger, some modules allow you to select which.

 

To be clear, as your layout grows and you hook up additional DC Timer modules or additional DC accessories it may be it makes more sense to put isolated DC- on the track outer rail to make it easier to trigger other kinds of devices.  In such a case you would add 25 cents of parts (e.g., a resistor and transistor) to generate the "high" trigger signal to the FRM01.  So if the isolated rail section provides a "low" DC- signal when the axle straddles the track, a couple parts would invert this to a "high" DC+ signal and you're back in business.

I  received this thing a few weeks ago and started to fool with it tonight (having purchased a cheap dc power supply)... but I did not get the decoder ring with the unit.  Has anyone broken the code on the four switches to get them to do something?  When I turn it on I get the left display to show 0 but can't make anything else happen- maybe I need the ENIGMA machine!

Hints welcome...

See page 5 of the link with the "better" instructions in previous post.  Note that pressing a button long or short does different things.  It really is a remarkable widget for the price.

Thanks Stan, those instructions were the deal, apparently they are supposed to be sent to the purchaser through email but I don't remember getting them.  One odd thing, the DC input is supposed to be 12V but this unit needs about 18v to work.  glad I am using an old HO transformer so I could increase that. Did you notice anything like this? Wonder if they sent me the wrong unit, the only component with markings is the relay?

So what voltage is printed on your relay?  It's the number after SRD-

 

In your original picture, it's 12V, in your last pix, it's 5V.  I ordered and received the 12V version.  Per the instructions it's also available in the 24V version which would probably operate at about 18V.  OTOH, if you have the 12V version and it takes 18V DC to operate, call Houston because we have a problem...

Mine is 12 volts and works fine at 12 volts. Directions are another story, even with the emailed version stan2004 posted above it is still difficult to decode.

I checked the situation again to verify the details: 1) the relay does have 5VDC labeled on it. 2) the unit I ordered from ebay was a 12vdc so apparently I did not get the right unit. 3) you can see from the picture what I have to do to get it to work.  

Time to contact the vendor to get the right unit- wonder what is going on with this one? Strange combination of facts which don't fit!

It's not unusual for you to get the wrong or not properly working items from these off-shore vendors.  I bought some voltmeters for my track voltage car, and it took three tries to get two working voltmeters.

On my 12V unit, the numeric readouts, LEDs, and ability to change settings via switches begins work at about 4V and above.  I suspect that's true for all the versions (5, 12, or 24).  The higher voltage is needed for the relay to operate.  Do your lights come up at 4V or so...or do you need 17.5V to get the module to just turn on (ignoring the relay)?

 

And that 17.52 V DC measured right at the DC+ and DC- screw terminals on the module itself?

 

 

Stan, the minimum voltage on my power supply is 3.2v (old HO controller)  and the board has lights at that level.  As the voltage is increased the relay starts to chatter at about 7-8 volts and does not quit until near the 17 volts this unit needs to operate.  I measured the voltage at the terminals of the module.  

Well, it comes down to how much time you want to spend fussing with this vs. getting a replacement (or giving up).

 

It sounds like "digital" part is working allowing you to view/change modes, set time intervals, etc..  The blue LED next to the relay turns on when the relay is supposedly on.  So you can at least hook up the module, set the desired Function and parameters, trigger the function via the CH1 terminal, and evaluate whether the module would do what you want (less the actual relay).

 

So if you haven't thrown in the towel, I'd set it to the delay-off Function 12, set the T1 on-time interval to 30 sec per your application, trigger it, watch the blue LED come on and the digital counter count down from 30 to 0, and watch the blue LED turn off...and then imagine.

 

Of course if you the above works and you want to fix their problem, I will probe the board and tell you exactly what to look for.  That is, the relay blue "on" LED signal is buffered by a transistor to drive the relay.  It shouldn't be hard to debug if the "digital" part of the module is working.

 

I've had good luck getting replacements from the Asia electronics module people.  I've never had to send a unit back even though the eBay listing says buyer must pay return shipping.

Unless you really hammer them with defective parts, they normally tell me to just keep them and send the proper one.  When I was having the voltmeter fiasco, I first got the wrong meters, and I sent them a picture of what I got and what I ordered.  Next time, one of the meters was wildly inaccurate, like about 20%!  I again sent a snapshot of the two side by side connected to the same voltage.  Third time was a charm, I finally got what I was looking for, two working meters.

 

Same experience here. From an order of six adjustable AC/DC to DC converters one was DOA, five worked perfectly. Emailed them and they just sent me a new one. They did not want the bad one returned, said to just keep it.

I avoid problems of accessories operating at will by installing a on / off switch for it on my control panel and label it. 

 

I built the control panel with 10 or so blank slide switches so it would be easy to add. 

  

The switch can cut the power to the accessory or from the isolated track section to the accessory.

 

Of course the train engineer must remember to throw the switch on or off but that is what engineers are for!

 

Charlie

 

 

Blow up picture and see blank, unlabeled switches installed on right side of panel.

See my Jan 16 post, noting the unit received only worked at 18vdc. Replacement #1 arrived today and is labeled 12vdc but still does not operate until +18vdc. We will see what the next replacement brings. BTW, I bought one of the Amazon units also to see if I get a functional item.

OK, time to step up. I have been playing with the cycle timer that hokie71 and others on the forum have been going crazy with. I bought 4 of them on Stan's suggestion and when I powered them and every one of them just looked at me with the display on "0", I was looking up Stan's address (just kidding, don't know what I would do without all his help--invaluable resource to this forum). So let me do a little heavy lifting to give Stan a rest.

 

For hokie: My problem turned out to be my power supply. I was using one of those inexpensive AC/DC supplies I bought on ebay. As part of another project (IR detection), Stan put me onto bridge rectifier and DC regulator modules on ebay. I connected the output of one of the DC regulator modules at (even less than) approx. 12vdc and viola, it started working.

Now how the heck do you use the thing. Well after reading the posted 8-pg manual many times, I got it to work. I wanted to use it to operate my 2-light crossing signal (no. 154).

 

When you first power it up, it will display "0005" and then count down to "0001". Now press and hold the SET button. The display should read "--01" and the blue 'Mode'LED' should be lit. You can move from the 1st to the 2nd digit by pressing the SW button. I wanted to use mode 16, so I used the SW button and moved the display to the 1st digit. I then pressed the NUM+ button until "6" was displayed. Then I used the SW button to move to the 2nd digit and used the NUM+ button to enter a "1". I was now in Mode 16. I then tapped the SET button and the display changed to "0000" and the T1 blue LED lit. At this point I could program the time the T1 part of the relay was on--I chose "0001" for 1 sec. I then tapped the SET button again, and the display changed to "0000". I repeated the process above and set the T2 on time to 1 sec. I tapped the SET button again and the display changed to "0101" and the NX blue LED was lit. I didn't know what that meant until I read the instructions again. That function changes dependent on your mode selection. For mode 16 it just meant that T1 and T2 would cycle on & off at a 1 sec. interval ("0101", 1st 01 is T1 time, 2nd 01 is T2 time).

I hope that this will help.

 

Oh, by the way, I then applied 12vdc to the trigger terminal (CH1) and the module began toggling T1/T2 and did eventually operate my crossing signal.

 

Ken