DCS: To Keep or Not to Keep, That is the Question

I don't have an answer, but I'm kinda like you, in that I set up and take down. So, I'll be interested in what people advise.

1. Can I power multiple independent loops with the one system?

Yes, the TIU will operate 4 blocks or loops.  it has 2 variable channels that can be used to run dcs equipped engines and/or conventional locomotives, and 2 fixed channels that can only operate dsc locomotives.  

2. Will Lionchief play on the same powered track as the Proto MTH trains (I know I need to use their controllers) or will I need a dedicated track? I mean--can I run both Proto trains and Lionchief trains at the same time on the same track, albeit with different controllers?

You can run Lionchief on just about anything, it will work fine on the same track as a dcs engine.  

3. I am assuming I can't run DCS and conventional trains on the same track, that I should dedicate a track to those trains? 

You could run conventional and proto2/3 on the same track, but it is a little more complex. I'll leave this one for the guys that know a bit more.  

4. I understand once I program my MTH trains to DCS I need to do a factory reinstall to run them again with the little command controls that come with them--is that hard to do?

I think it's called a reset, and I think you really only need to make sure they are set to address #1 for the remote commander.  I don't recall the process for this, but seem to remember it being quite simple under the full DCS system, but possible with just a transformer.  

JGL

Thanks for the answers so far.

Let me ask you this: is there a way to use more than one MTH engine on different loops of track and run them simply using the little remote commander handhelds that come with the sets? Or are they going to interfere with each other?

1. Can I power multiple independent loops with the one system?

Yes, you can.

2. Will Lionchief play on the same powered track as the Proto MTH trains (I know I need to use their controllers) or will I need a dedicated track? I mean--can I run both Proto trains and Lionchief trains at the same time on the same track, albeit with different controllers?

Yes, it will.

3. I am assuming I can't run DCS and conventional trains on the same track, that I should dedicate a track to those trains?

Yes, you can, and it can be done solely from the DCS Remote. However, you need to pay attention and have decent fine motor control in your hands.

4. I understand once I program my MTH trains to DCS I need to do a factory reinstall to run them again with the little command controls that come with them--is that hard to do?

All you need to do is to perform a Factory Reset from the DCS Remote. It takes less than a minute.

I'll give you better advice than Barry did:  Don't hurt your bride's feelings by telling her to return it.

Assuming you have the room to do so, you should try it with one of your temporary loop setups, then maybe vary the loops a little and see if you run into issues.

The very early units could require many of the efforts Barry describes in his book for even simple loop running.  I've gotten the various errors on a single loop of O72 track running one train over the years.  I believe the newer units are better in this regard, so you will likely fare better here, but you should try it out.

If you do run into issues, you may need to dig into solutions such as defined in the book.  You could need to use insulating pins to break the loop into blocks (then adding multiple feeds of course), add light bulbs, etc. 

This is why I suggest you at least try it out.  With your variable layouts, it's unfortunately not possible to say you won't have any issues at all across any of your set up scenarios.  Whether the potential effort that could be involved if you do run into issues is worth it is highly subjective (especially for temporary layouts), so that needs to be your call.

-Dave

RJR posted:

I'll give you better advice than Barry did:  Don't hurt your bride's feelings by telling her to return it.

I agree with RJR, don't hurt your wife's feelings! Use the DCS system, you may have to get used to the system before you really like it, after a few months you will like the DCS system.

Lee Fritz

That is a mighty fine gift from a loved one.   Command control is fun, you can enjoy running two short trains in each track of your setup - more train action!

Keep yhe dcs system. Once you start using the system you will wonder how you ever did witout it.

Thanks for all of your wonderful advice. The bride will not be hurt if I don't keep this so no worries there.

Bit here are my fears about this system, put right out there:

1. I do not have an engineer's mind. I can barely work my toaster.

2. I'm afraid of putting my trains on the track and frying them.

3. I'm afraid when I hear that one can have trouble running on a simple loop of track.

4. Talk of pins and light bulbs and blocks are exactly the things that I have always avoided.

So, although I love the IDEA of it (my Lionchief trains are fun) and I ADORE the MTH Railking trains, and I'd love to run them this way, I am really concerned about my own limitations.

So let me just ask one last question: has anybody run this system problem free equipment wise, understanding that the user has to learn how to use it? I'm willing to put in the time to learn it, but I'm unwilling to suffer buggy equipment that requires me to perform workarounds with lightbulbs and incense that I'm probably too much of a klutz to handle :-)

Thank you all!

I have just purchased Barry's book. Before I even open the packaging on the DCS, I'm going to wade into the book to see if it scares me :-) Also, I want to support Barry because I know he gives of his time freely here, so even if I don't keep this thing, I'll have done my bit.

PDXTrains,  My simple humble advice is two fold.

1. Wade through the book and see what you can glean from it.

2. Do not fear the unknown, set-up a single loop of track and practice running with DCS with only one set running.

By running only the single set you'll quickly learn how the system works. 

Use the book as your resource, as in a personal guide.

These systems have been developed with the wide variety of users in mind.

Just step through the set-up and you'll be just fine.

I'm certain that you will see very quickly what the system has to offer and fall in love with it.

And I agree, don't send the unit back EVEN if she says it's OK to do so.

You want to giver her the confidence that she's able to make wise train related purchases for you that will bring you joy.

If you want, pull her into the process of testing the unit and you may gain a real model train partner that will have as much passion about the hobby as you do.

Barry, can you tell me where in the book it tells me how to do a factory reset of the engine?

PDX,  Kazar is 100% right.  Don't be overwhelmed by the size of Barry's book or its continent.  DCS is a system with tremendous capabilities, and there are some of us with complicated layouts that wring out DCS for all it is worth.  Barry's book is the complete reference manual.  But a simple operation, transformer feeding TIU input and the TIU output connected to track, is all that is needed when it comes to complexity.  We all started simply & knowing nothing about model trains.

I doubt that you could fry a loco, short of plugging it directly into a wall socket.

Hello,

I started with TMCC and worked my way into DCS. This was several years ago. I quickly became frustrated with DCS, sold most of my P2 locos and converted the rest. Before I sold my TIU, I started reading the DCS Forum-then the game changer was investing in Barry's book ( I am now on the second).  It then worked so well I wouldn't dream of changing again, and my TMCC locos work great with it. If you are willing to do a little bit of studying and ask a few questions on this forum you will have a great experience with DCS.

I am sure I speak for many others in saying THANK YOU!!! to the Forumites who monitor all of the controls forums and are always there for us.

Merry Christmas,

Scott

Don't know about DCS but keep the bride.

Hi Friends:

The marriage is strong, so don't worry about me. 32 years +. She has her interests, I have mine, we support each other but there are no worries there.

That said, I think I'll give it a go. Barry's book has given me enough courage to try this, although I would like to know how to reset the engines so if I mess it up I can go back to the simple hand controls I have, or if I want to run one loop with those controls (like for a guest) I can reprogram the engine quickly. Can't find that in the book, although I'm sure it's there.

Since I will be purchasing a few more Proto 3 sets, I'm not so worried that my P2 sets might act up. If they do, I'll re set them to factory and run them on the conventional loop. (See? I already know the difference between P2 and 3 from reading Barry's book!)

I'll be back here, I'm sure!

can you tell me where in the book it tells me how to do a factory reset of the engine?

It's on page 52, "RESET ENGINE".

PS2 sets made after 2003, characterized by a rectangular charging port, are rock solid. 

All a factory reset does is wipe out any settings you've changed and restore them to the initial default setting.   Not needed to run them conventional.

Robert,

I'm fairly certain that he's looking at reset as a fallback to get his engines to work again with his DCS Remote Commander, in case he gives up after loading them into the remote.

That's it, Barry. Even if I use the DCS for two of three loops, I may want to go back to the hand held command for a loop just as an option. Also, if the P2 engines (and they do have rectangle ports) act up, I can just go back to the ay I used them before and use the DCS with P3 engines.

You're right, Barry.

I may be a voice crying in the wilderness, but personally I feel the PS2 is more solid than the PS3.

What is bothersome is that, reading between the lines of PDX's comments, is that there exists a climate of fear about the reliability of DCS systems or that it's complex.  It isn't.  To add DCS to my layout when it was first released, I simply plopped the TIU between transformers and track and have been running DCS reliably ever since.  My layout is large and complex, with many trains running at once and on converging routes.  I notice many events that others might not notice, and like to understand why they happen.  But I have had no reluctance to build a DCS layout for my youngest grandson and granddaughter, knowing it will work reliability, even though it uses 50+-year old Lionel switches..

pdxtrains posted:

Thanks for all of your wonderful advice. The bride will not be hurt if I don't keep this so no worries there.

Bit here are my fears about this system, put right out there:

1. I do not have an engineer's mind. I can barely work my toaster.

2. I'm afraid of putting my trains on the track and frying them.

3. I'm afraid when I hear that one can have trouble running on a simple loop of track.

4. Talk of pins and light bulbs and blocks are exactly the things that I have always avoided.

So, although I love the IDEA of it (my Lionchief trains are fun) and I ADORE the MTH Railking trains, and I'd love to run them this way, I am really concerned about my own limitations.

So let me just ask one last question: has anybody run this system problem free equipment wise, understanding that the user has to learn how to use it? I'm willing to put in the time to learn it, but I'm unwilling to suffer buggy equipment that requires me to perform workarounds with lightbulbs and incense that I'm probably too much of a klutz to handle :-)

Thank you all!

I have setup and run my DCS system with no problems for several years. It is really no more difficult than setting up your MTH sets to run with the DCS Remote Commander. If you got a brand new DCS system, it will very likely be a Rev L TIU (it will say on the bottom of the unit). With a Rev L TIU you should not need light bulbs, incense or Whizzo Dust to make it work (that is unless you like the scent or it makes you feel better (I am not sure Whizzo is still around to offer his Magic Dust?).

The DCS system will not fry your trains. Train frying is a function of transformers/power supplies and a lack of surge protectors and circuit breakers. A DCS system has fuses and TVS diodes that will help to reduce (not eliminate) your chances of frying anything. You can certainly fry all the trains you want without a DCS system.

Since you have Barry's book, read it. It is well written and an easy read. There is a ton of good advice in there and it will explain a lot of things about DCS. As you have noted, Barry is also around here and offers a lot of additional help as well. The one thing that I think made the biggest difference on my layout was blocks. Follow Barry's advice on that, it's all in the book. Isolate your loops of track from each other. You should be doing this anyway if you are using multiple track power sources (if you are not, think train frying).

I actually did have a couple of minor problems before I added blocks. I thought my original temporary and separate loops of track (roughly 4-1/2' x 7') were too small to make a difference, they were not. It did make a difference when I added just one isolation track joiner to the loop, no more problems of any kind since. There is nothing special or difficult about adding isolation pins or joiners.

And I also agree with the others above, that is a very nice gift from your wife, keep is and enjoy it. Don't chance hurting her feelings with a return.

Robert,

While I completely agree, I have learned to stay out of the "DCS is too complex/difficult/troublesome/(fill in the blank) to use" conversations on the forum.

I have also gotten tired of making people aware that the vast majority of DCS "problems" fall into the following areas, in order of prevalence, based upon my experiences in resolving issues:

1. Operator error or failing to read instructions (far and away #1)
2. Poor understanding of what a command actually does (possibly related to #1 above)
3. Dead battery in PS2 engine
4. Problems in layout wiring or other layout-dependent things
5. Defect in DCS hardware or PS2/PS3 engine
6. Bugs in releases of DCS earlier than DCS 5.0
7. Bugs in DCS 5.0 (there are only a few left)

Regardless of what some might say, every DCS problem is resolvable, as long as one approaches the issue methodically and intelligently.

Further, with the exception of battery issues in PS2 engines, this list probably works for TMCC and Legacy, as well.

I'm new to the hobby and bought a full DCS system back in the summer. I found it easy to hook up and easy to operate. Once you get used to the basic operation (about 15 minutes) I think you'll love it. Resets are quick and simple. I don't have a permanent layout, just small temp ones when I feel like running.

I've read Barry's chapter on blocks and wiring, and I'm still a bit confused. I will be running separate loops without them connecting in any way. 

Lets say I have four loops:

Do I use TIU variable 1 for loop 1, fixed 1 for loop two, etc, and power all 4 with four different transformers? The illustrations in the book seem to indicate that I can, but what about power source? Can I use my lionel 80s--I know I can use the z1000 and z500. 

I'm also a little confused about fixed/variable on the TIU. Let's say I run the Fixed input with a CW80--do I turn the throttle up all the way like I do know with Lionchief?  Would I do the same with the variable input? 

Finally, the DCS remote commander track connector that plugs to the z500 and comes with most sets doesn't have a transformer, since it supplies constant power. Is it safe to use this connector (the one with the little red circle on the top) on my loops, and connect it to any of the TIU inputs, whether FIXED or VARIABLE? (I'm talking about this interface to power the track: http://mthtrains.com/50-1033)

I'm sure the answers are in Barry's book--I don't understand the vocabulary enough yet to make them out.

Thanks!

RJR posted:

You're right, Barry.

I may be a voice crying in the wilderness, but personally I feel the PS2 is more solid than the PS3.

What is bothersome is that, reading between the lines of PDX's comments, is that there exists a climate of fear about the reliability of DCS systems or that it's complex.  It isn't.  To add DCS to my layout when it was first released, I simply plopped the TIU between transformers and track and have been running DCS reliably ever since.  My layout is large and complex, with many trains running at once and on converging routes.  I notice many events that others might not notice, and like to understand why they happen.  But I have had no reluctance to build a DCS layout for my youngest grandson and granddaughter, knowing it will work reliability, even though it uses 50+-year old Lionel switches..

How do you mean? What specifically has been unreliable for you about P3 engines? Anyone else have similar experience?  Thanks!

Do I use TIU variable 1 for loop 1, fixed 1 for loop two, etc, and power all 4 with four different transformers? The illustrations in the book seem to indicate that I can

Yes, you can.

but what about power source? Can I use my lionel 80s--I know I can use the z1000 and z500. 

Yes, you can, however, the CW-80 has been known to cause problems with DCS and PS2/PS3 engines.

I'm also a little confused about fixed/variable on the TIU. Let's say I run the Fixed input with a CW80--do I turn the throttle up all the way like I do know with Lionchief?

Yes, you would.

Would I do the same with the variable input? 

You could set variable channels to fixed mode and they would behave just like fixed channels. You would always set a transformer with a throttle control to about 18 volts when it's an input to a TIU channel.

Finally, the DCS remote commander track connector that plugs to the z500 and comes with most sets doesn't have a transformer, since it supplies constant power. Is it safe to use this connector (the one with the little red circle on the top) on my loops, and connect it to any of the TIU inputs, whether FIXED or VARIABLE? (I'm talking about this interface to power the track: http://mthtrains.com/50-1033)

When using a TIU, you would not use the 50-1033 at all. You would use a standard lockon to connect to MTH RealTrax.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

 

Finally, the DCS remote commander track connector that plugs to the z500 and comes with most sets doesn't have a transformer, since it supplies constant power. Is it safe to use this connector (the one with the little red circle on the top) on my loops, and connect it to any of the TIU inputs, whether FIXED or VARIABLE? (I'm talking about this interface to power the track: http://mthtrains.com/50-1033)

When using a TIU, you would not use the 50-1033 at all. You would use a standard lockon to connect to MTH RealTrax.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

 

Barry, I use Lionel fast track. I don't much care for the MTH track. Therefore, the 50-1033 makes it really easy to attach to the track. Is it safe to use that to connect from z500--->50-1033--> TIU input?

Also, the starter sets that use the 50-1033 have that single connector from the Z power bricks to either a transformer or the command control. The inputs on the TIU are red/black, so I can't go directly from the Z500 into the inputs... That's why i thought of using the work flow above.

My two PS3 heritage engines are my most troublesome.  They refuse to run together when MUed. They might make a pass or two around the layout and then one of them will drop out.  I've tried switching lead engines, resetting engines, super cleaning track and pick-up rollers.  They are often hard to find with the remote when left on the layout between sessions.  I've run a 4.20 TIU. I've tried magic bulbs, although I believe that I read that this version doesn't need them.  I gave up trying to run both of them on the layout anywhere as one or the other will eventually act up.  Alone they run reasonably well even if I have to reset and reload on a regular basis. 

Beyond the PS 2 , PS3 discussion: Having followed the trials and tribulations of the DCS system written about in the Forum and having read Barry's books, including the latest, I am at a loss why any consumer electronic product with so many issues and upgrades (that seem to create new problems while attempting to correct others) hasn't been scraped.

Don't get me wrong, I have been fan of MTH from the early days and I like the trains that Mike Wolf produces, but I am becoming reluctant when deciding about future purchases.  Its all too much work and is becoming tiresome. I just want to run trains and enjoy the sights and sounds. I seem to spend as much time reading about how to solve the latest glitch as I do running trains.   

I have to thank Barry and many more Forum members for their diligence in solving problems and sharing their experiences with all of us.  I am hopeful that someday soon these beautiful engines  will run as good as they look.  

Hanging in there!

Earl         

 I use Lionel fast track. I don't much care for the MTH track. Therefore, the 50-1033 makes it really easy to attach to the track. Is it safe to use that to connect from z500--->50-1033--> TIU input?

Also, the starter sets that use the 50-1033 have that single connector from the Z power bricks to either a transformer or the command control. The inputs on the TIU are red/black, so I can't go directly from the Z500 into the inputs... That's why i thought of using the work flow above.

You should not use the 50-1033 inline with a TIU input channel. The 50-1033 adds nothing. Instead, get a barrel jack adapter from MTH that converts the Z-brick outputs to a pair of banana plugs.

I have also gotten tired of making people aware that the vast majority of DCS "problems" fall into the following areas, in order of prevalence, based upon my experiences in resolving issues:

Barry, don't forget that daily there are newcomers to DCS or to the forum, who haven't seen their questions previously asked and answered.  So the same basic questions arise over and over.  Most of these persons are grateful to you for your answers, and like the one of the 12 cured lepers, some will even express their gratitude in a post

How do you mean? What specifically has been unreliable for you about P3 engines?

Nothing I can put my finger on, Barry.  Just a gut sensation

I am at a loss why any consumer electronic product with so many issues and upgrades (that seem to create new problems while attempting to correct others) hasn't been scraped.

Earl, as to the upgrades, bear in mind that DCS is a software based system.  Like any computer, the programs get upgraded as features are added or, as with any software, bugs are discovered and fixed.  Unlike Lionel which has had many hardware changes, the DCS hardware---remotes and Rev G TIUs---I acquired in 2001 when first issued, still provide all the features of the latest version and operate the latest version of the software. 

Most issues are due to operator error; few are not related to some layout issue, such as crossed wires, inadequate wiring, or (as Barry notes above), failure to read basic instructions.  An exception would be the 5-volt boards that fail, which were produced around 2000 and, unknown to anyone, contained a component that did not have a long life.  The 3-volt boards I acquired in 2003 are still working perfectly. 

RE v.5 DCS, the command system came into my hobby shop in November. How likely is it to be running the latest software, and heaven forbid I have to upgrade it, how stable is v4.

My guess is that it would have 4.3.  It is quite stable, and for the type of operation you describe, I wouldn't bother upgrading.  It's just another thing to learn to do, like upgrading a computer to run a new version of windows.

I switched to DCS operation about a year ago.  One of my favorite features of DCS is the ability to operate more than one train on the same loop at the same time.  That feature alone makes it worth while to me.  Don't stop there though, DCS gives you so much more control over your trains.  As for my postwar trains, I have a separate loop powered by an old zw for them to run on.

Wait, your bride bought you DCS? & You're thinking about it?

Does she have a sister??!!!

PDXTrains,

     Along with Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion Book, I also recommend the OGR Video Guide to DCS, especially for all beginners like yourself.  If you are a visual type learner, Rich Melvin does a great teaching job visually showing exactly how to set up and run your 1st DCS layout.  The great thing about his video is you can review it as many time as you need to fully grasp everything.   Definitely keep the MTH DCS & eventually add Lionel Legacy to it, for the ultimate combination Remote Control experience.    

In reality your wife did a great thing giving you a DCS for Christmas.

When you have further questions as you build your 1st layout, come back to the OGR we have a great bunch of people here who will help you in any way they can.

Merry Christmas!

PCRR/Dave