Decline of Hobby Stores

Nobody!

 

Sadly, that store is out of touch with MPC prices.  Check the forum for-sale section to get a real sense of what secondary prices should be.

 

David

What is really tough for the future is that new stock being sold at these high
prices are only giving the dealer a gross profit of 15% +/-, not enough to sustain

a retail operation no matter what the volume, which is also declining.

 

ncng

quote:

First they tell me to look for the screws in the "airplane" section.

 

I have found screws that were useful for toy / model trains in the "airplane" section of various hobby shops. I don't see anything wrong with that advice.

High prices should be blamed on the big companies; like Lionel and Bachmann. A new Lionel Legacy engine is selling for around $525.00 even at the large internet retailers. Bachmann's prices for the new Williams line around $350.00 for a single diesel engine with True Blast 'Plus' and no command control. Bachmann has raised prices way too much for me to buy from them any more.

Maybe I will buy MTH or RMT or stick with used equipment; as at least it has been made!

 

Lee Fritz

High prices are a result of us buying like there's no tomorrow. A great majority of the consumer's in this hobby are retired or close to it and they for the most part a viewed as big kids walking around with a sack of money waiting on the next big accessory or locomotive to be developed. One day when the technology runs dry on trains then we'll see the train hobby as a whole hit a wall and prices will reflect that. There's only so much a train is supposed to do realistically and they've pretty much accomplished that even down to steaming whistle and depleting coal load. With this new phone app the next big thing I would imagine would be a hover train that doesn't use any track but rather uses global satellite positioning like my phantom drone does. 

That is why I buy only stuff from Menard's and at train shows.

It's sad to see a LHS go under, I do enjoy window shopping. That being said, the computer age is a fact and the internet is a real time saver for MOST (not all) people in my opinion. Most of the good LHS's have a web site and I believe they will survive, some might even go to only internet sale which is what I believe is happening to the Hobby at this time. This is true with most of the hobbies and I don't see an end where someday EVERYTHING will be done over the internet and the brick and mortar stores will be nothing more than a warehouse and shipping department. I grew up with the first computers in schools and haven't looked back, they are the future of the everything. The LHS will need to embrace the new age or parish. Just my opinion. P.S. They are opening a new shop very close to me, so not all is lost for the LHS!

I think it's more a reflection of the demographics and interests the hobby shop is trying to service rather than any indication of the state of the hobby. You went to the "Big Hobby store" rather than a store specializing in model trains exclusively -- and from what I can tell, RC hobbies such as airplanes and drones are particularly hot at the moment, so it's not surprising that a non-specific hobby shop would choose to focus its attention on carrying more products that are popular. I would be more concerned if you had gone to a model railroad-oriented store and received this sort of customer service.

 

And to be honest, I never understood why people are such sticklers for using hardware from train "manufacturers", considering that they just package those screws and retail a handful for a premium. Just go to Home Depot or an online distributor and buy a bunch of them cheaply, so you have more money to spend on rolling stock or locomotives.

I have a mountain of used 80's and 90's stuff im about to sell off. I'm gonna be selling cars for like $3 to $5 each and locos for like $25 to $50. I remember when I was a kid looking at the stuff in my uncles display case and drooling over some of ti. It was really nice stuff back then but its junk compared to what we have not.

A lot of years ago when I got Model Railroader, there was a whole discussion about the decline of the hobby shop.  Demographics played a large part, but, it was determined that prior to the rise of  internet sales, 'hobby shops' that consisted of rental space in a mini-storage lot and an 800 number that bought in bulk was a real factor.  This lead to some hobby suppliers offering better wholesale deals to actual brick and mortar shops, since many buyers like to see what they are getting before they buy.  This was to offset the folks who came to a shop to kick the tires, then  called the 800 number to get it 50 buck cheaper. As regards the demographics, my local shop of which there is only one, has had models in the front window so long that the boxes were faded.  When the downturn occurred starting in 2008,  Over a period of time he sold just about every model in the shop and said it was the first time in years he had to make a big order to replenish models.  He attributed it to folks staying home and doing family things or less expensive pursuits. On my last trip, I noticed those boxes are fading again.

The LHS that specializes in trains is under fire much the way all family owned specialty businesses are these days. Near my home there is a small strip mall. When I moved into the area there was a local hardware store, a specialty cookware store, a specialty gift store that my wife loved and a convenience store. The local hardware store is the sole survivor because they were purchased by the ACE chain. All of the others are gone and in their place is a Dollar store, a Goodwill, and lots of empty space. Oddly enough, the owners of the mall property are happier with nothing than they are with renting space at a more reasonable rate. To me, it's a miracle that any LHS's exist at all any more. I wish I had one but am thankful for access to the ones that still exist and offer internet sales.

It doesn't have much to do with the decline of hobby stores, but as to the screws, the big box hardware stores don't carry any small screws that could be used with model trains,or any such applications. These big box stores only stock items that they can sell a lot of, no matter what kind of thing it is, so their specialty hardware supply of anything that isn't a mass-selling item is non-existent. (Incidentally, the quality of the screws and much other such hardware sold at places like Home Depot is lousy).

 

I've had some luck with Ace Hardware (these kinds of hardware stores carry a far, far better selection of screws, nuts and bolts than the big boxes do), but Lionel, for example, uses dozens of different sizes and types of specialty screws in their trains, and often there is no realistic alternative other than ordering them from Lionel. Not a big deal - very cheap compared to most things in the model train world.

I also think it has to do with what area of the US one is in. For example, my in laws live in Findlay, Ohio. Every store in that town is a chain from Olive Garden, Home Depot, Walmart etc..Everything there has a drive through including the beer place where you drive through. Now, Im in White Plains, about 15 min from the Bronx, there are very few chains at all in Westchester County, we just have 1 Walmart. Hardware Stores in the old sense are plentiful, thank God, and are excellent sources for everything. We have a great train store, Tom's Trains at Ardsley Hardware, etc. And if one goes out to Long Island, Train Land, Nassau Hobby, Willis Hobby are all there and are well stocked stores. So I wonder if the NYC Metro area is weathering this storm better. Just my 2 cents!

LHSs will always be good for:

• The small 1-2 items you need that the shipping from an online vendor would cost more than the items you want
• Items you had no idea about. For example, I was at a Portland, OR hobby shop on Saturday and found several items I never knew existed that I bought for use on my layout. Online vendor websites can be okay if you already know what you're looking for but not if you don't
• Publications. Most of you are probably like me in that if it isn't a magazine you subscribe to, you probably want to thumb through them before buying
• Sales. Some LHSs sell used stuff or have sales to make shelf space. Good deals can be found at a LHS. I bought almost all my On30 track and many of my freight cars from a HS in Tacoma over the timeframe for a year while I was designing the track plan. Also, there's a HS in Portland that sells AMS On30 passenger cars for way less than online prices (no sales tax and no shipping, too). Buying 2 of them, it was well worth the gas cost to drive down there to buy them
• Excuse to see other stuff. I always try to double up with any HS visit to go chase trains as all of them are somewhere near active RR lines. The one in Tacoma is very close to a massive antique car museum I'm a member of as well as a great used book store. I'd never get to the area much at all if it wasn't for trips to the HS...

Like many of you, I buy from LHSs when I can. Sometimes, yes, I pay more. But to me, it's worth it.

Well a 15% return is much better than the banks offering maybe 1%

It all depends on the owner, if a train shop is going to make it or not. If they are willing to work hard and put in long hours they will make it.

Matt- I'll be watchin...

 

The same has happened to specialty camera stores etc.  The mass public doesn't appreciate anything but their cell phones these days.  Or buying cheaply made retail goods at malls that have huge margins built in at any sale price offered.

Thanks Marty.

 

My local train shop had just such a Model Railroader editorial (Andy Sperandeo ?) taped on the wall. Stating that we go to our local shop for all the "small" stuff to build our railroads, but when it comes time to buy that expensive engine ... we turn to mail order. And this, the editorial felt, would prove to be the demise of the local shops.

 

Fasteners? I drive right past that miserable orange box store, and to a local industrial supply place that has everything for machinery and such. I do the same drive for my local small plumbing supply store.

This is so true.  I used to go to a local shop that was a good 40 minutes away. It was the closest one. The owner was helpful when I first got into HO scale, and it was a nice shop. I went to go to the shop with my sister to help get some stuff for a school project she had. The store had moved and never updated their website. We went to their new location which was not to far from their old one. The shop was a bit smaller but looked good. At least til we walked in. We were ignored as we walked in not even a hello or need any help with anything. Not a thing til we were about to pay for the stuff we needed. The shop was not even busy that day. It just felt like we were getting the cold shoulder from them. I have not been back since, and will not go back. I will check out a few new ones I have found a bit closer to home sometime and I'll stick to a local show to find what I want now.

luckily i have a place like this in town...

 

http://www.ababaqa.com/

 

not sure if their stock is US made, but they sell over-the-counter retail and it's far better (as you note) than the cr*p Home Depot or Dixieline sells (eg: phillips screw head slots are not 20% off center on the average)

 

online i use these guys, too...

 

http://www.americanmodeleng.com/

 

cheers...gary

I'll take a copy of that list, please.

 

ftauss@yahoo.com

This has been discussed a lot on here. The reason hobby shops go under is simply that people either aren't into hobbies that much, or if they are, they are looking for the cheapest prices and want top of the line service at Walmart prices from a hobby shop, which isn't going to happen. Over the years, based on my experiences here and in real life, some of those who bemoan the fate of the local hobby shop, saying it is the death knell of things as we knew it, a tragedy, are the same people who immediately buy from the cheapest vendor on the net (then complain about the lack of customer service). Or they go to the local hobby shop, maybe buy some small items, hang out there with their buddies, have all these opinions about the store and what it is doing wrong, then buy from value dollar broker on the net, and then whine when the store shuts down.  I would hazard a guess that the margins on the big ticket items, while small, are larger than the little things (like, for example, scenery items), and that this is what the store is not getting. 

 

Some stores die because they don't want to change, they still think they are in the 1960's, where the local hobby shop often was the only game around (long before 800 numbers and mail order became common), think that they can do demand pricing, have overpriced old stock, not great service, and survive, I have seen those places, and refuse to have an internet presence, other than a single page website with some cheesey logo and maybe their operating hours and a phone numbers. Most are run by grumpy old men, who remind me of the guys at Madison Hardware, except those guys actually had something to sell. 

 

Looking at how the successful stores that seem to buck the trend operate, I see some common factors:

 

-For the larger ones, they exist in a well populated area, where even if hobbies are a small fraction of the population, give them a lot of traffic because the population is large. Places like these still get foot traffic, from a wide area

 

-These stores also are aggressive with advertising and web presence (I think of places like Nassau Hobby, Trainland/Trainworld), that make for a hybrid model, and they actively reach out to customers through various means. A lot of hobby shops barely have any presence whatsoever,they are passive, expecting people to 'come to them'. 

 

-The smaller stores, based simply on what I have seen, operate on a different model. Some of them are side or retirement businesses (there is one up the road from me), where they are open only certain times, and they don't really have expectations of making a lot of money. They offer local access, people hang out there, they give advice, and manage to sell enough to keep in business.

 

Those that are full time offer service and something unique. There is a hobby store near me whose prices are pretty expensive, but they operate in a pretty well off area, and they make a lot of their business during the holidays, when they aggressively advertise. What fascinates me when I go there is I see a lot of young families, people buying train sets and such, along with the 'graying' generation like myself. They have a lot of post war stuff as well, and even though comparatively it is pretty overpriced, they do seem to do business. They do a web business as well and seem to have their own niche. Some people love the place, it is family owned and operated, others grumble because they can 'do better on flea bay or on the net'. They do a lot of service business with older equipment, and it seems to work for them. 

 

I love hobby shops, and I really hope they hang around, I'll pay more to use one, the convenience of being able to see an engine, maybe run it on their test layout, and get an idea of what is out there is huge to me, and I also like that it is human interaction. I'll buy some things from the net, some from the store, but as long as the pricing is realistic (ie if you are charging me above list, telling me it is 'rare', stick it) I'll try and buy there. 

The "trapped in the 60s" hobby shops are still out there. I recently saw one that even the stock didn't look any newer than, say, the 90s. I have no idea how places like that still exist.

There are some LHSs I was happy to see go under as they had horrible customer service, but I really am saddened that most of the decent ones in this area that were all in business when I moved here in '98 are gone now. The nearest hobby shop with trains is about 50 miles away from me.

 

 

Many of us have had a similar experience, sadly. At one experience just like it, I actually waved my hand in front of someone's face as I was asking for help and he totally ignored my presence, as he was more focused on 'holding court' with two guys musing about the layouts they might build someday. I had a stack of stuff and wanted to pay the man money, but he wouldn't even recognize I was there, even when I asked. I actually dropped everything on the counter, said, "You just lost a sale," and stormed out. That guy couldn't have been the owner. I hope that place is out of business.

Same with a big store in Sacramento I went to once. I wanted to buy something in a case in the back of the place. Never got any recognition for having been there (again, focused on a guy and his dream layout, apparently not spending money there). The counter guy was so oblivious that as I was walking out after having given up trying to buy what I was looking for, he said, "Come back again," to which I turned back around and said, "You do realize I was wanting to buy something, right? Didn't you see me standing there looking for some help or hear me ask for it? Come back? I wouldn't come back here on a dare!" and left. You should have seen the look on that guy's face.

This.  Not only are fewer people into hobbies, the ones who are are often looked down upon as some sort of childish eccentric.  Actually having hobby-related skills brands you as a nerd.  If it ain't video games, it's uncool.

 

Yeah, as compared to how incredibly cool it used to be...

I would like a copy of that list, please.

 

khayden@hotmail.com

Yeah, I kind of wondered about that statement. One of the thing about the whole nerd universe was that even in the dark ages when many of us were growing up, one of the defining narrative you always read is "As a kid, I was into trains, then when I discovered cars and girls, the trains went into the attic" followed by "then when I was [supposedly] an adult, I discovered trains again".

 

The reality of model trains or toy trains is that they were never very cool, back in the 1940's and 1950's kids may have wanted trains, which today would be a not so much, but the reality of those markets, both scale and toy trains, is that I suspect most of the purchasing was being done by adults, and by adults who didn't care if it was cool or not. There have always been things that were cool, whether it is video games today or online gaming, or cars, or skateboarding or the Apple II computer or whatever, but that has not changed. What has changed is that the trains are not as popular as they were with kids in the 40's and 50's, but I don't think that is what is killing the hobby stores, because I think most of the hobby stuff was being bought by adults, some for kids, but much was for themselves. Whether it was RC airplanes, or trains, a lot of the big hobby items were being bought by adults. Things like military models, large scale models, were in the adult range of things (as opposed to let's say the testors models kids did), even in things like model rockets a significant percentage of the action was adults, and I don't think the cool factor affects them.

 

I think that the percent of people doing traditional hobbies like trains, rc, and so forth, has declined, but the reason is that there are so many other things out there, not that trains aren't cool. More importantly, the fact that there are so many online hobby sources and stores tells the real story, that the convenience and price of buying online was probably the most significant death knell.

 

It is interesting that stores like Hobby Lobby and Michael's have expanded and done well, because they primarily focus on crafts, which apparently as a hobby or pastime has either flourished, or at the very least has not died out. Maybe it is because with crafts, a lot of people rely on seeing what they are buying, or the convenience of having it at a store makes shopping on the net not attractive. In contrast, hobby shops in other pastimes, like general hobby shops or specific like trains, simply are not attractive compared to the net for many things.

"...brands you as a nerd". 

"Nerd" is not the insult that it used to be, or so TV and the InterWebs tell me.

 

I'm too old to be one, as it really only applies to the  "young", as it once meant "not cool" (whatever "cool" is - there's a tired term), and old f**ts like me are not cool under any circumstances, anyway.

 

Extreme interest in any activity, especially one that is in some way a leisure activity, is nerdish behavior. Hear that, Football Nerds? Man, talk about deep into something... 

Ah, yes, screws.....I dropped a screw for a recent production Lionel loco and tried to get it from one of these "Lionel Parts Suppliers", advertised.....odd

ball screw of course, well, several emails exchanged...time passes..i don't know if they just stocked parts for old Lionel or...? .I started raiding hardware stores  of course, as said above, you ignore the big box stores which have so much AND so little...(so much junk and so little "hardware") and found ones that fit in an old hardware store, newly ACE, but with all the old stock.

One of the factors with craft store success may be that they don't sell big

buck stuff....no $2000 Big Boys or $500 "beginners sets"   One whose success is a mystery to me is Hobby Lobby, BUT they do have some hobby

stuff I can use.

I've commented on this topic before as it is a sore spot.

I work mere blocks away from a store which shall be left unnamed (although some of you know of the company I work for and can figure out the associated town and suspect store...)

I used to attend this shop regularly once or twice a month during lunchtimes.  I never left without purchasing something -- sometimes a car, sometimes just a magazine.  But I always purchased something because I believed in supporting them.  And over three years or so I spent thousands.

Well, the multiple times when they should have stepped up to the plate and recognized me as a good customer, they failed miserably.  Rudely, on several  occasions.  So much so that I stopped attending their establishment.  Good luck to them!

Customer service can go a long way in keeping the doors open, even despite higher pricing.  I won't be surprised when they fade away with such non-interested servicing of their customers.

I now do my shopping here with you guys and with forum sponsors online.  Not as tactile and visually stimulating.  But so far successful.

- Timbo

My LHS was on 14th street in Calgary, then they moved to the industrial park by Chinook mall. I purchased my very first set from there from a guy named Rick. Rick was always the best, happiest guy in the whole place. They moved and he started only working on Thursdays. The other guys just stayed up front and did sweet f--k all, no "can we help you?" or "is there something in particular blah blah blah".

 

The last 6 times I was in there, never mind hearing a pin drop, you could shoot a **** cannon and not hit anything. There was -nobody- in there. I spent a good hour or two each time and not one person came through the door, again with the cold shoulder too. I didn't even get to see Rick the last time, he wasn't working that Thursday.

 

I feel for the people who walk into a place like that and get exactly what I got. I wasn't even looking for big ticket items and they didn't have anything that really poked at me. I imagine if I modeled in HO or N then they'd be worthwhile (and that's probably where most of the business comes from). I even sneakily peeled back a sticker on one of their clearance items (Lionel radio tower thing) and found a whole $3 discount from $89. With all the orange Fastrak boxes on the back wall, I turned my back and walked out, never to return. Used to be a really REALLY cool place. Now I'll go to the other store on Macleod Trail. 

 

The way things are going is a push to all online shopping, for everything, not just trains. Best of luck to them.

 

Another store in NW Calgary shut down about 10 years ago. Guy just couldn't hack it. Used to have tons and tons of everything stacked to the rafters! Model kits, trains, diecast, rockets and a very hot assistant  (stacked to the rafters too )  and he was a really personable friendly guy. Anything he didn't have, well he just pulled that catalog right out from under the desk "I can have that for next Monday for you."

None of that helped him out.

 

Unless the hobby store is one of those non-specialty stores or is very tech savvy and has their deathgrip on your bottom dollar, it's not long until it'll be dust in the wind. 

 

 

 

 

The World Wide Web has changed everything including how we shop and live. I never would of imagined in my wildest dreams, 30-40 years ago I would be reading, communicating, learning, buying, selling on a website exclusively devoted to the hobby of trains. Such as the OGR website. All from a smart phone device that fits into my pocket, If you told me that back in the day, I would of laughed it off... Dick Tracy Come true..

Or starter sets that for the money do not hold up like the trains of the father did.  I have gotten that comment from several folks I talked to at shows I have attended in recent times.  A couple were customers who's trains I had been trying to keep running.  Together we would go out among the tables of trains for sale, with thier stated budget in mind and would build up a postwar set up for thier child.  After that, no problems.  Localy, we have 2 shops, neither is very good at the moment.  Both refuse to get with the current century.  But we might be getting a third shop that will address these issues. As to lack of newbies in the hobby, when I attend the GTE show in Indianapolis, its totaly packed with kids.  So the interest is there, but mom and dad's wallet isnt from the feedback I hear.  Once they look at what it costs to move beyond the starter set, they get cold feet fast.  They forget that trains, in this case Lionel, were always expensive.  My fathers simple 1423w set from 1948 was $49.99.  This was 1 weeks wages for my grandfather and he had a good job at Fridgidare, then a part of GM. I also have long said that any LHS that wants to stay in the 1960's has a death wish for thier business. Localy most of the main buyers are tapped out and not buying much, many are in thier golden years.  The younger generation are internet savy and will find the best bargain so they can get the most bang for thier meager income.  While there are many new items I would love to buy, my restricted income does not allow that and probably never will.  But I can pick up bargains from sites like this and others.  If one needs a sticker shock, just go price track, espicaly the better stuff from Atlas O and Gargraves.  And I need 0-72 for my Weaver PRR M1a to run on.  I think she is gonna be a mantle piece for awhile to come.  For myself, I try to pickup things that I can afford from the LHS from time to time, espicaly the ones that bring in estates and second hand trains to sell.  Otherwise its from online sources.  The only exception is one that that I do repair work for, I get paid in store credit so all the money he makes on my repairs, gets put right back into his business. Perfect set up for both myself and the shop owner.   Mikie

What is happening to hobby stores has happened to other retailers, and it often comes down to alternatives appearing and stores that once had a monopoly not being able to figure out how to compete. 

 

I am old enough to remember the first of the home improvement stores coming into being, the Channel Lumber, Rickels, etc. These weren't quite on the scale of Home Depot and Lowes, but they brought a lot of the things these stores have on a smaller scale.

 

I remember the hardware and home stores complaining about these stores, grumbling that it wasn't fair to them. What wasn't fair? The local hardware and home stores were notorious for their hours, they would be open 8- 5 Monday-Friday, maybe one day a week they would be open until 7 if you were lucky, and on Saturday they might have been open 8-12 or so. The chain stores were open until 9, 9:30, 6 days a week, and were convenient. I remember going into a local hardware store at the time, and the guy who ran the store, a real fathead, complaining about lost business. I asked him why he didn't open all day Saturday, and close Monday, or why he didn't at least one day a week stay open until 9, and he gave me this long tirade about that isn't fair to him,he would like to do things on a Saturday (and NJ supported these idiots, NJ had blue laws where you couldn't buy lumber and nails and other hardware like that, or clothing, or appliances, on Sunday, and it was strictly to protect stores from having to open. Instead of being convenient to his customers, instead of for example having better quality stuff then the chain stores had, he had limited hours, expecting customers to take time off from work to be able to go, or get there on a saturday morning, and was selling the same crap channel lumber was at elevated prices.....and fundamentally, like many hobby shops I have seen, they acted like they were doing the customer a favor, instead of the other way around. 

 

There have been threads on here where people blamed the bad attitude of the hobby shops and such on the customers, that they had kids who ran wild, that people were inconsiderate, etc, and I wondered about them, because it didn't dawn on the store owners, or those defending them, that taking out the bad behavior of some customers on people who are going to buy something is just plain stupid, yet that owner will whine and moan how the internet is killing him, how no one wants to buy, how hard it is to be a store owner. While that is true, it also is true that when you face competition, every customer is precious, and that is something they forgot.

 

I was thinking about that today, when I was growing up there was a hobby store called Rich's Hobby Town, started as a small store in Parsippany, then moved to a large store in an old church building, opened another store in another town, then finally folded in the late 70's-early 80's. When I was a young kid, they were known for having a lot of different things, and were very popular. When they moved to their new, bigger store, people thought it was going to be more of the same, but instead of maintaining their uniqueness, they started selling a lot of the same crap that department stores had, and if I recall correctly, their selection of trains and model planes and such was no longer as wide nor as good, and it went down the toilet because they simply tried to compete for the wrong market. 

 

That doesn't mean that there aren't external forces, like shifts in market tastes, the internet, economic factors that make owning a hobby store difficult if not impossible, but a lot of stores make a tough environment even worse, they shoot themselves in the foot by forgetting that to have a successful store, people will have to have a reason to go there, and sitting around shooting the breeze with your buddies, or treating customers like annoyances, certainly isn't going to help.

Good news!  I was just outside and the sky is still there! 

You know, I just went out too. and your right, the sky is  still there. Cool!