Detailing Lionel Great Northern "Empire Builder" 8-car Passenger Train by John Rowlen

A beautiful set that I know you will make even better!

John, this is going to be awesome! I’m hoping you add Kadee couplers to this magnificent train to close all the gaps. Definitely worthy of doing that. You’d love the results without a doubt!

Great looking train, John!  I'll be watching your process with interest!

@John Rowlen, thanks for the video; looking forward to your excellent progress reports.

Question: can you confirm that the full-length dome car has six-wheel trucks?

Carl, The Great Dome has six wheel trucks.

John Rowlen

Beautiful set, John!

I'm quite relieved to see Lionel got the colors on the whole set right.

John, couldn't you just turn the dome cars around so the seats face forward?

Joe,  The answer is a definite "No".

The Main Floor Seats face one way and the Dome Seats face the opposite way.  (You get to decide who rides the train facing backwards: Main Floor or Dome passengers.)  The Dome Floor has an opening in it that allows the steps to poke up through the hole in the Dome Floor.  Please see the two pictures for better clarification.

Joe your question is logical, but the Dome design prevents the simple rotating of the Dome Floor.  The seats in the Dome are raised on support posts that break easily and are glued into the Dome Floor.  I fought with the same issue in my Amtrak 3 Dome Coach.  When the posts broke, I had to Dremel off the post stubs and glue each seat to the Dome Floor, lowering the Seats a little below the windows.

Have a good day.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@John Rowlen posted:

Carl, The Great Dome has six wheel trucks.

John Rowlen

Thanks for the confirmation AND use of the correct terminology for the car.

EDIT: My subsequent post has been deleted, and possible solution added to John's other thread.

March 26, 2024

I welcome everyone's comments. This thread was intended to show my detailing of the Lionel Great Northern "Empire Builder" eight passenger cars.

Please jump over to the Thread about the "Backwards Seats" in the Dome Coaches.  Lionel is not sponsoring this thread and may not see any comments left here.

Just to clarify, there is a hole in the Dome Floor that if reversed, would show the Seated People sitting in the front short-end of the Dome Coach.  After spending about $4,200.00 for the passenger cars and four engines, I have no intention of doing meatball surgery on these expensive cars.  I might return them to the Dealers if a solution is not found.

Have a good evening.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I was thinking one would see the dome seats more than the seats below but you are detailing the whole car so it would be obvious that the lower level and upper level seats are facing opposite directions even without the staircase issue.  I should have given it a bit more thought before I made my suggestion.

Beautiful passenger set !!!!👍👍

Wednesday, March 27, 2024

At this time I am waiting to hear what Lionel plans to do about the Backwards Seating in the Dome Floors of the Dome Coach cars before I start detailing the Great Northern "Empire Builder" passenger cars.  If I don't like the answer, they will be going back to the dealers.  I buy from two or more dealers in case  returns are needed so it is not a big financial burden on one train store.

Here are photos of my Great Northern Vista Vision Camera Dome Coach with the Dome Floor going the correct way.  I detailed this car in anticipation of the Great Northern "Empire Builder" passenger cars.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Awesome! Well done John.

Two hours later and six Excell blades used, I was able to score and then cut the rectangular posts out of the bottom of the 2-Pack Dome Coach Dome Floor in order to begin turning the backwards Seats into the forward-facing position.

Both of my Dealers had green-lighted the return of all of the Great Northern passenger cars and four engines.  It was not the solution I wanted, and I truly felt depression at the prospect at having detailed my last Lionel passenger train with the completion of the New York Central 20th Century Limited set.  My eyesight is rapidly deteriorating with useable vision in only one eye.

I decided to attempt what was impossible on my Amtrak Dome Coach.  Fortunately I had purchased four Excel knives and twenty replacement blades.

I scored around the bottom of the Seat posts and then tapped the sharp knife into the channels around the seat post.  The seats on the 2-pack Dome Coach came out with much less resistance than the Amtrak Dome Coach that had half of the posts break when I turned those seats.  Here is a picture of my progress midway in turning the seats.

I glued the Seats into the Dome Floor correctly facing forward with the steps entering from the rear of the Dome,  I gave the Seats their first coat of tan paint.  Tomorrow I will attempt to rotate the Seats in the Dome Coach in the 4-Pack.

Have a good evening.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

OUTSTANDING work, John! Seats removed without breakage which assures a solid installation when they're facing forward. Truly remarkable IMO.

Perhaps you can provide detailed instructions/video for LIONEL Service.

That’s nice work, John!  I can see it would be rather exacting!  Beautiful.

I stayed up late painting the interior of the 2-pack Dome Coach Car.  Here are a few pictures,  The Dome Seats have 2 coats of paint.  The main floor has only one coat.  I need to paint another coat to hide the streaks caused when the mold releasing oil mixes with the paint on the first coat.  I hope to open the 4-pack Dome Coach tonight and reverse the seats.  The posts are different from the Amtrak posts that puffed up through the floor.  The Great Northern post look like they were embossed with a logo and sink inward, rather than puff up and out.

Have a good evening.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Very nice painting job, John!

@John Rowlen, slightly off topic but are the domes a single plastic piece or, as Atlas did with its CZ set, the dome consists of a painted frame and clear inserts for glazing?

Carl, The physical Dome Window Framing snaps into the Dome Coach Roof.  It has one-piece window glass glued into the Dome Framework.  The actual car body is fastened to the chassis with four screws at the corners.  The LED lighting plugs in at the door end (Rear) of the car.

I was very fortunate to get the 4-pack Dome Coach Dome Floor to separate from the backwards Seats without damaging any posts.  These Seat Posts are different than the posts on my Amtrak Dome Coach that broke when removing them.

I used an Excell Knife to score the underside floor around the Seat posts. After scoring, I tapped the Excell knife into the edge scores and after moving the knife to different positions, the post popped out.  I removed any excess plastic debris and sanded the Dome Floor area at the hole for the Seat post.  Using Crazy Glue, I fastened the Seats facing the correct front direction in the Dome Floor.  The entrance up to the Dome is in the rear of the Seating Area.

I decided to risk my Dome in the 2-pack as my first car in order to salvage this Great Northern passenger Trail Detailing Project.  I turned out to be successful, and I will begin detailing cars with Preiser 65602 Seated People that I painted.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, thank you for the step by step.

Carl, thank you for asking the question.

I’m just following along and learning some tips to pack away for possible future projects

Thanks, John. Excellent reply. Superb work.

Special thanks for the excellent photos and your foresight in taking them.

April 5, 2024

I made significant progress on the second Dome Coach #1321 from the 4-pack.  The 2-pack Dome Coach is #1324.  I just have to give the rear main floor seats a second coat of tan paint.

I will store the two Dome Coaches until I have painted more Seated People for the cars.  The next car will be the only sleeper in the set.  I have to add seven seats to the car because they are missing from the floor mold.  I am lucky to have found more coach seats I bought from Lionel parts 12 years ago.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

April 6, 2024 12:50 A.M.

The second Great Northern "Empire Builder" Dome Coach interior is finished and waiting for people.  After I paint more Seated People, I will add them to the two Dome Coaches that have been painted.

Sincerely, john Rowlen

Your work looks great, John!  It gives me inspiration for finishing the interior of my passenger set.

Great work as always John. Thanks for all the detailed descriptions you provide as well. I just did the interior on a MPC car for my Lionel Doodlebug. Not anywhere near the quality of your work but I can see how detailing passenger cars can be addicting.

Bob

This is the third car interior that I am painting, the Great Northern "Santium Pass" 10-5 Sleeping Car.  It is the only Sleeper in the eight-car set.  I have pictured  the factory interior that needs seven Seats added to the rooms.  There is a picture of the Seat preparation for this car.  I need to cut out the Seats and grind the Floor under the molded Seat.  The Seats will then be glued into the seven rooms.  This allows me to add passengers to the rooms without Seats.

I painted the first coat of paint on the car.  I will add the second this evening.

Have a good evening.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

That is a nice looking set, and an interesting assortment of cars.  It looks like the Great Dome is based on a Santa Fe prototype, the short domes are based on Union Pacific domes, and the remaining cars are perhaps a mix of Union Pacific and New York Central or Pennsylvania RR prototypes?  Despite the catalog illustrations, I was hoping that Lionel might have come up with accurate new tooling for this set, but it looks like they didn’t want to make that investment.  Still, nice looking cars that will look much better with the added detailing!

But I agree, $4,200 is a lot to pay for this set, especially considering it is a repaint of previously made Lionel passenger cars.  With no new tooling, the profit margin for Lionel must be huge!  They should be able to afford to fix any of the production problems that have surfaced.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

Beautiful set, John!

I'm quite relieved to see Lionel got the colors on the whole set right.

The colors look good, but are dull compared to my Legacy GP-7 from several years ago. I just bought the great dome though. Kinda regret not being the entire set.

Great work as always John.

John, for a person who has limited eyesight you still do excellent and perfect work which undoubtedly takes a lot of determination, patience, and most of all time which is most valuable, just having time to run my trains is a challenge all by itself.

I agree and understand your comment about not wanting to do "meatball" surgery, especially on such an expensive set and although I rotated the assembly as an interim solution until Lionel comes back with a correction which I am hopeful they do although it might take a little time?

Not sure if I would return the entire set although I certainly have that option through my dealer as this is the first and most likely will be my only Great Northern set and yes, it is disappointing that Lionel did not get it right the first time, nor do I think it will be the last. 

Unfortunately, many companies these days are not what they used to be with no easy answers on the horizon. Our world has changed and will continue to do so and let's hope we can at least continue to enjoy our trains and all the great people that make this hobby what it is today.

Appreciate what you do and all "For the Love of Trains"!

Larry Brown

I installed the seven seats that are missing from all 10-5 Sleepers. Tomorrow I will do the second coat of paint and set the car aside until I paint more people.  I am keeping the set after solving the Dome Seating issue.  I will be selling some freight cars to make room for the passenger train. It would be nice if Lionel would make two more Great Northern "Empire Builder" Sleeping cars.

Here are the pictures of the Sleeper with seven new seats added.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@John Rowlen posted:

... It would be nice if Lionel would make two more Great Northern "Empire Builder" Sleeping cars.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Curious: why such a request?

Carl,  I have a fully detailed with Preiser Seated People Walthers HO Great Northern "Empire Builder" passenger train with ABBA engines that has several Sleeping cars in the twelve-car passenger Train.  Ideally I would like Lionel to make another "PASS" 10-5 Sleeper and the other floor plan used in the New York Central 20th Century 2-Pack that Lionel recently made.  Of course, I want it painted and properly named in the Great Northern "Empire Builder colors.  Only one Sleeping Car in this beautiful train is not enough.  There were 10 cars in the Lionel Pennsylvania Broadway Limited.  I detailed two complete sets.  The Lionel Great Northern ABBA engines can surely pull even more cars.

And a Baggage Car would be nice too.  I like the Baggage Car with opening doors.  Hey, maybe the Lounge Baggage too.  That would make four more cars, or two 2-packs.  And the good news for Lionel is that they have all the tooling.  Cha-ching!

Did I mention that I like working on Toy Trains that begin to look quite real when I am done.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

April 8, 2024

The third car, the "Santium Park" Sleeper, is put together and waiting for me to paint more Preiser 65602 Seated People.

Here is the beginning of detailing the Dining Car, "Lake Ellen Wilson" for the Great Northern "Empire Builder" 8-car passenger train.

I started the first coat of paint on the table bases, table tops and seats.  I will be cutting 1/4" strips into seat backs after I give the strips a coat of tan paint.  This car will take a couple days to complete the interior.  People will be added at a later time.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Thank you, @John Rowlen, for your reply. As you say, one sleeper on this transcontinental train is clearly inadequate. According to one source, the prototype had six.

I hope LIONEL hears you, John. A 10+ GN EB consist behind ABBA F units would make for a heck of a sight.

@John Rowlen posted:

April 8, 2024

I started the first coat of paint on the table bases, table tops and seats.  I will be cutting 1/4" strips into seat backs after I give the strips a coat of tan paint. This car will take a couple days to complete the interior.  People will be added at a later time.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I'm appalled that LIONEL didn't provide proper seats for the dining passengers!!! Stools?

John, you may have been asked previously, but what paints are you using? You seem to be getting pretty good results.

Carl,

I have been adding seat backs to all my Dining Cars.  Lionel did create a Dining Car with Seat backs for the two New York Central Dining Cars.  They are making progress, . . . and I am making seat backs.  See first picture for NYC 20th Century Dining Car.

Bigboy25,

Since Testor's paints are no longer available, I use Tamiya Flat Acrylic paints.  Since I mix my own colors, it has taken some practice getting the colors I want from their pre-mixed paint selection.  I have to stop and cover the paint and shake it every 20 minutes as it starts to form a skin on top of the paint.

I also put two coats of paint on everything. The first coat mixes with the releasing oil used in making the interior molds.  The second coat smooths-out the uneven first coat of paint.

I also use Tamiya paint brushes.: 87218 Fine, 87217 Extra Fine and 87216 Ultra Fine bristles.  I will show more when I start painting the Preiser 65602 Seated People.

Sincerely, John Rowlen