Just thinking----With this Artic Vortex arriving and trains moving in northerly directions---ex: Ind---will their fuel jell? How do they handle extreme colds and wind? Just thinking----
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On the farm, our diesel is cut as much as 50/50 with kerosene to keep it from waxing up.
They won't gel as long as they're running. And when the temps are extreme, railroads leave the engines idling when not in use.
Lyle posted:Just thinking----With this Artic Vortex arriving and trains moving in northerly directions---ex: Ind---will their fuel jell? How do they handle extreme colds and wind? Just thinking----
Most modern railroad diesel electric locomotives, especially those assigned to more northern climates, have fuel oil pre-heaters. Since the diesel fuel is constantly being circulated from the fuel tank to the diesel engine and back to the fuel tank, the fuel supplied for injection into the cylinders is warmed.
Concerning the wind, that really only effects the air intakes and radiator cooling systems. Remember, "windchill" only has an effect on exposed skin, and nothing else. I just love it when the TV News "talking heads" warn their viewers to protect their vehicles, because, "The windchill will be something like 50 degrees below zero tonight!". So what!
Thanks guys---excellent conservation!
Lyle posted:Just thinking----With this Artic Vortex arriving and trains moving in northerly directions---ex: Ind---will their fuel jell? How do they handle extreme colds and wind? Just thinking----
They will "handle" it just fine. This is nothing new, and, indeed, locos in Canada and Russia handle crap like this regularly. Locomotives are heavy industrial equipment designed to live in harsh environments, and there are procedures in place by the manufacturers and customers (the RR's) to protect them. Running them can be the best protection.
None of which is to say that extremes of weather in any direction isn't fraught with peril, and will reveal some weaknesses in design and individual units.
You know, when locos had literal fires in their bellies and were full of boiling water as a matter of course, "freezing up" was a hard thing to do... The crew, on the other hand...
Tonight where I live they are predicting an Arctic-like +31 deg F. Brrr. I might need a jacket. What's next - polar bears?
D500 posted:Lyle posted:Just thinking----With this Artic Vortex arriving and trains moving in northerly directions---ex: Ind---will their fuel jell? How do they handle extreme colds and wind? Just thinking----
They will "handle" it just fine. This is nothing new, and, indeed, locos in Canada and Russia handle crap like this regularly. Locomotives are heavy industrial equipment designed to live in harsh environments, and there are procedures in place by the manufacturers and customers (the RR's) to protect them. Running them can be the best protection.
None of which is to say that extremes of weather in any direction isn't fraught with peril, and will reveal some weaknesses in design and individual units.
You know, when locos had literal fires in their bellies and were full of boiling water as a matter of course, "freezing up" was a hard thing to do...
Well, yes freezing up the boiler would have been hard to do, but freezing various appliances, such as injectors, feedwater heating systems, water transfer hoses from the tender to the engine, and the compressed air systems were all subject to freezing on railroads like the GN, NP, CMStP&P, CB&Q, SP, UP and D&RGW when temps got down to 20, 30, and 40 below zero.
The crew, on the other hand...
Tonight where I live they are predicting an Arctic-like +31 deg F. Brrr. I might need a jacket. What's next - polar bears?
Train Nut posted:They won't gel as long as they're running. And when the temps are extreme, railroads leave the engines idling when not in use.
Well, you would be surprised at what can happen even with the engine idling, in places like northern Wyoming, Montana, and North Dakota, when temps drop to 30 and 40 below zero.
The newer diesels have automatic start/stop systems that will restart the engine if it has been shut down and if certain parameters become out of limits. The system looks at the charging state of the batteries, lube oil temp., and others. My impression from limited experience is that air brake systems are more likely to have problems due to freezing. The "spitter valves", which are designed to eject water/moisture from the air brake system as the compressor works may have made this less of a problem.
All of the above assumes that the railroads maintain this stuff though!
"Arctic Vortex"=new speak for IT"S **** COLD!!!
Hot Water posted:Train Nut posted:They won't gel as long as they're running. And when the temps are extreme, railroads leave the engines idling when not in use.
Well, you would be surprised at what can happen even with the engine idling, in places like northern Wyoming, Montana, and North Dakota, when temps drop to 30 and 40 below zero.
Correct. I own a fleet of heavy logging road building iron in upper Michigan and have been in it for 27 years. And indeed they can and will gel/ freeze while running. There are several things that can be done to minimize the chances. But it certainly occurs. And not just fuel issues, a whole host of other wonderful things happen in those temps. It was -37 the other day, -63 windchill. -26 today, - 43 windchill. A warm up this weekend.
Lyle posted:Just thinking----With this Artic Vortex arriving and trains moving in northerly directions---ex: Ind---will their fuel jell? How do they handle extreme colds and wind? Just thinking----
As can well be imagined, extreme sub zero temperatures create unusual challenges. As Hot Water pointed out, most newer locomotives have fuel preheaters to prevent jelling of the diesel fuel. On numerous occasions through out my career, I have experienced older GP and SD type locomotives fuel jelling, even when operating at full throttle, the fuel would coagulate enough to plug the fuel filters and result in the locomotive starving for fuel and shutting down.
Another aspect of this extreme weather affecting locomotives is the freezing up of MU valves on both the train line and mu hoses. After traversing hundreds of miles (think Chicago to New York) through snow, ice and sub zero temps the valves can become frozen, packed with snow and ice. Short of placing the unit in a shop building, the only way to free the valves is to apply heat. Depending on whether you are in a terminal or out in the middle of nowhere, heat may be supplied from any means available, ranging from a blowtorch to a fusee. The same holds true for their whistles (air horns), they can become packed with moisture, snow and ice, eventually freezing the air valve, resulting in them not functioning.
In these severe sub zero temperatures, I have even experienced the heavy grease in the gearcase housing of the axle mounted, traction motor ring gear freeze, not allowing an axle to turn, after the locomotive has sat, without moving, for a extended period of time (a few hours in this kind of weather). This occurs as a result of the blowing powered snow kicked up from the right of way, finding it's way into the gearcase, contaminating the gear lubricant in the housing, then freezing.
These extreme temperatures are hard on everything. Even the simplest of operations such as unlocking a switch lock (frozen due to moisture, key won't turn, I'll need another fusee), or tying an air hose (pliable in most normal temps, but become quite stiff in severe cold) are challenging to railroaders. We won't go into broken rails, frozen interlockings, clinging to the side of a freight car while engaged in a shoving move, the list can go on and on.
Am I glad I've retired? Yes! Do I miss it? To be frank, yes, some days I do, but not today, and not this week. Now, to place another log on the fire, and a enjoy a nice cup of tea.
C.J.
I would assume the preheaters warmed the fuel before it went thru a filter. On my farm tractors and trucks the cold fuel gels when it gets to the filter before it gets to the injector pump. Are the preheaters turned off in warmer weather? Do the northern railroads run a winter blend? Did older locomotives have preheaters?
This may be a stupid question, but what kind of lubricating oil do they use, and is this changed for winter conditions?
When railroading, I never had to deal with temps as extreme as some of you mention. Coldest times for me were around in the single digits, down to 0 degrees. I can't imagine how brutal it must be to railroad (ESPECIALLY the ground crews/MOW/etc) in temps like some parts of the US experience.
Once I was in engine service, as long as the engine had a decent heater, I didn't mind the cold, but I sure felt for the ground crew having to deal with bad conditions.
Andre
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On the section in Truckee, I put on clean socks every day on the advice from the old hands.
Hot Water posted:D500 posted:Lyle posted:Just thinking----With this Artic Vortex arriving and trains moving in northerly directions---ex: Ind---will their fuel jell? How do they handle extreme colds and wind? Just thinking----
They will "handle" it just fine. This is nothing new, and, indeed, locos in Canada and Russia handle crap like this regularly. Locomotives are heavy industrial equipment designed to live in harsh environments, and there are procedures in place by the manufacturers and customers (the RR's) to protect them. Running them can be the best protection.
None of which is to say that extremes of weather in any direction isn't fraught with peril, and will reveal some weaknesses in design and individual units.
You know, when locos had literal fires in their bellies and were full of boiling water as a matter of course, "freezing up" was a hard thing to do...
Well, yes freezing up the boiler would have been hard to do, but freezing various appliances, such as injectors, feedwater heating systems, water transfer hoses from the tender to the engine, and the compressed air systems were all subject to freezing on railroads like the GN, NP, CMStP&P, CB&Q, SP, UP and D&RGW when temps got down to 20, 30, and 40 below zero.
The crew, on the other hand...
Tonight where I live they are predicting an Arctic-like +31 deg F. Brrr. I might need a jacket. What's next - polar bears?
My biggest problem was the hoses between the tender and the loco freezing up. Even 4" lines freeze eventually. Then when they thaw its 50/50 if those hose is now leaking. i think larger steam engines had some appliances to combat this issue, the little one I was on did not.
laming posted:When railroading, I never had to deal with temps as extreme as some of you mention. Coldest times for me were around in the single digits, down to 0 degrees. I can't imagine how brutal it must be to railroad (ESPECIALLY the ground crews/MOW/etc) in temps like some parts of the US experience.
Once I was in engine service, as long as the engine had a decent heater, I didn't mind the cold, but I sure felt for the ground crew having to deal with bad conditions.
Andre
I ran an Alco s-2 for a while. The only heat in the cab was a small line from the engine coolant that ran through a radiator by the engineer's feet. It was might cold until that big block warmed up.
John Mills posted:This may be a stupid question, but what kind of lubricating oil do they use,
The last 20 or 30 years, railroad locomotives have been using a multi-viscosity, high detergent, engine lube oil based around 40 weight.
and is this changed for winter conditions?
No. Generally RR locomotive lube oil is not ever changed unless there is fuel dilution, or some other detremental contaminant. There is enough make-up oil added every week or so, and since there is about 400 gallons of lube oil contained within the whole system of engine and oil cooler, every effort is made to NOT change oil.
jhz563 posted:Hot Water posted:D500 posted:Lyle posted:Just thinking----With this Artic Vortex arriving and trains moving in northerly directions---ex: Ind---will their fuel jell? How do they handle extreme colds and wind? Just thinking----
They will "handle" it just fine. This is nothing new, and, indeed, locos in Canada and Russia handle crap like this regularly. Locomotives are heavy industrial equipment designed to live in harsh environments, and there are procedures in place by the manufacturers and customers (the RR's) to protect them. Running them can be the best protection.
None of which is to say that extremes of weather in any direction isn't fraught with peril, and will reveal some weaknesses in design and individual units.
You know, when locos had literal fires in their bellies and were full of boiling water as a matter of course, "freezing up" was a hard thing to do...
Well, yes freezing up the boiler would have been hard to do, but freezing various appliances, such as injectors, feedwater heating systems, water transfer hoses from the tender to the engine, and the compressed air systems were all subject to freezing on railroads like the GN, NP, CMStP&P, CB&Q, SP, UP and D&RGW when temps got down to 20, 30, and 40 below zero.
The crew, on the other hand...
Tonight where I live they are predicting an Arctic-like +31 deg F. Brrr. I might need a jacket. What's next - polar bears?
My biggest problem was the hoses between the tender and the loco freezing up. Even 4" lines freeze eventually. Then when they thaw its 50/50 if those hose is now leaking. i think larger steam engines had some appliances to combat this issue, the little one I was on did not.
Most of the western railroads that operated in sever weather conditions, had their steam locomotives equipped with steam tracer lines, which supplied steam to those big valves & hoses between the tender and the engine.
When I (rarely) go downtown the Metra engines at Olgilvie are always idling. I have never seen them just sitting there shut down. I saw a picture earlier today showing the switches "on fire" to keep the snow melting and from the switch freezing.
John
I have enjoyed learning about the issues with diesel fuel on engines in extreme cold. Our production department and I had responsibilities for a 20 mile railroad and two diesel engines transporting about 20 cars and MTs return daily but had no problems with extreme cold.
It was in Jamaica, WI ! Let me be more clear, this is near Kingston, Jamaica, West Indies in the Carribbean about low 70F, high 92F year around.
Charlie
I have heard of engines having trouble with cold up here several times. Once while out on a -20 degree night I listened on the radio as a BNSF crew in Minnesota was n/b with four engines pulling an empty grain train. One by one their engines were cutting out and they were radioing dispatch about it. They were only able to roll about 8 mph, which is nothing out here considering the distances. As they pulled into a siding to allow another train to overtake them, I heard the conductor say something to the effect that "These engines from the south aren't worth a poo-poo up here." At that point they were down to one running engine out of four. The other problem is things becoming brittle in the cold. Rails break, so do switches. BNSF has speed restrictions when it's below 10 degrees on some lines here. Finally, I remember some drama from 1998/99--the "Winter Everything Died." It was hitting 50 below in parts of the state. And then a four day long blizzard hit with winds over 60 mph and temps diving to minus 30. It was the only storm where I didn't leave town. Heck, I couldn't even get out of my driveway even with my big Chevy K2500 3/4 ton 4WD truck. Anyway, there was a w/b DME train somewhere around DeSmet, SD that got caught in a drift (some were 10 ft. high) and was stuck. No one could get to it. The crew moved from engine to engine as one by one they died. They were finally in the last engine running after a couple of days when a group of snowmobilers followed the tracks looking for them. They found them and got them out OK. I've heard some other stories from back in the steam days.
Kent in SD
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joe krasko posted:"Arctic Vortex"=new speak for IT"S **** COLD!!!
BTW: The term is Polar Vortex.
Rusty
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Choo Choo Charlie posted:I have enjoyed learning about the issues with diesel fuel on engines in extreme cold. Our production department and I had responsibilities for a 20 mile railroad and two diesel engines transporting about 20 cars and MTs return daily but had no problems with extreme cold.
It was in Jamaica, WI !
Charlie
Just my opinion but, I don't believe you experience "extreme cold" such as what Wyoming, North Dakota and Montana experience.
Hot Water posted:Choo Choo Charlie posted:I have enjoyed learning about the issues with diesel fuel on engines in extreme cold. Our production department and I had responsibilities for a 20 mile railroad and two diesel engines transporting about 20 cars and MTs return daily but had no problems with extreme cold.
It was in Jamaica, WI !
Charlie
Just my opinion but, I don't believe you experience "extreme cold" such as what Wyoming, North Dakota and Montana experience.
Kent in SD
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