Does running long trains at slow speeds harm them?

I run long trains with Williams diesels for hours on end without a worry.

"I really enjoy watching my trains running slow while pulling 20 cars, but then it dawned on me that it might be using more current under less voltage and actually burning up the motors."

  My experience with running O scale slow was that single motor locos with low speed gearing have no problems but china drives with high speed gearing will eventually pit the wheels or soften the pickup springs and begin giving trouble. They might have improved the later locos but to be safe I'd keep the locos running fast enough that the motors are not humming in a partial stall mode.....DaveB

Great question JohnnyB!

I hope not because my HO days taught me to run my trains slow.

The old HO and N scale "pulse power" throttles were hard on the motors I think but my MTH fleet likes to run slow and I have never had a problem.

TJ

Depending on the make and model of the locomotive, whether or not it is lashed up with another will determine to some degree the wear and tear. Bearings and hot motors do not make good bed partners in any scale. However, running a small consist will likely have little to no affect on most locomotives so long as they are being properly maintained.

I once ran an HO scaled DD40AX UP with 50 100 ton UP coal hoppers. I was bored one night and decided to watch this fiasco for myself for about a few hours. Yes, she pulled all 50 and yes she stayed the course and yes, she hated me a little, but she worked just fine and I never had one tiny problem thereafter with that locomotive. However, HO is not O or G and many O cars are made of metal now as well as some locomotives.

Allot of weight being pulled around the layouts might cause some unintended consequences.......just saying.

Pete

I've run long trains slowly without problems, but I follow the "Tim the Tool Man" philosophy of "More Power". I don't run more than 12 cars per powered locomotive/dummy diesel pair with hi-rail wheels and traction tires (especially with Atlas cars). When that 13th car goes on, another power unit is added. With scale wheels, to prevent slippage I almost always run a pair of diesels up front.

Steam is a bit different as they're geared lower and have more weight on the drivers, but I usually don't go beyond 20 cars just for the sake of convenience.

Stop worrying and then looking for a place to put it.Have fun instead. 

Lionel Odyssey II System • Does a great job at managing slow speed locomotives with out harming the motor. Up & down grades.

  Click Odyssey System to enlarge. 

Well, it it does:

- I've abused a lot of locos for ages.

- I'm going to go on doing it.

Seriously, I've read what is said about Odyssey, and being an electrical engineer, I know that the circuitry used for any speed-control/cruise system like MTH, Lionel, or Lionchief Plus uses would tend to not overheat motors at low speeds.  However, I haveactually measured temperature rise on locos at low speed just to be sure (I use a IR heat senor "gun") -- and Legacy and Premier locos run cooler at low speeds than at higher speeds with the same load.  

And over time, even if it did - which is apparently NOT the case. Aren't trains made to be used for our pleasure. Not to be snarky but they can always be repaired or replaced... (to reasonable limits anyway)

I have often wondered the same thing but I run old Lionel steam mostly with heavy  old cars. My layout is level but I watch the loco so it doesn't look like it is struggling and check heat build up. Yes, the can be fixed but a burned up motor is not fun.

I guess I shouldn’t worry about and it does seem to be running great which really surprises me. I hadn’t thought about measuring the Temp as Lee mentioned, but I think I’m going to do that sometime today.

Someday I would like to have something like the Lionel Odyssey II System, but for now I’ll just plug along. I bought my brother-in-law a TMCC Loco many years ago for Christmas and he was having so much trouble with it that I never considered going with anything other than what I got, but that was a long time ago.

I just run them, if they burn up, I fix them.  I have no problems with heat with 25-30 cars on a single Legacy diesel, and I once ran 115 cars with two Legacy diesels.  They were working harder than normal, but they survived just fine.

Gentlemen,

   I am like Lee, I am an abuser no doubt about it, run em long and slooow especially with the DCS & Legacy now.

PCRR/Dave

The longer and slower, the better.

A modern day scale locomotive with dual can motors and traction tires could pull out a tree stump! 

I didn't think twenty freight cars was a long train

I run 30 plus cars most of the time at the club with two diesels trains that long have to go slow.  after about an hour I switch to two different engines and pull off the cover to touch the motor, not even warm.

Clem

I would agree, but it really depends on the setting. On a small home layout, 10-12 cars may be all it can handle and would look right. Running a much longer train in a "nose to tail" fashion would look silly.

Our club layout is big and even a 35 car train can disappear out of sight at times. Our longest siding is 38ft and was intended for a very long train

Oh I agree and I have seen some pretty long trains, but that's about all I can do with my layout before the engine is pushing the Caboose. LOL well not quite, but I think on a lot of average home layouts that would be normal unless you have really large train room.

I feel that my single 4-4-2 could perhaps pull 25 to 30 without losing traction on a level track although I have never had a chance to try it.

tr18 & Sleeper

Gentleman I agree, For the most part, trains on my pike I like to keep right around 15 or less scale cars, it just looks better. However I can and do run 100 feet long trains for fun.

I am like AGHRMatt "More Power"  

Clem k

  I run this consist(40 total with MTH power) regularly at slow speeds and have close to 4k scale miles with no motor issues but i do keep spare motors in stock just in case. Fast forward to 1.32 minutes ..east bound NS intermodel.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ_WjCrtmgk

That's not how electricity works.

If you supply LESS voltage to the motor, as you do when you run slowly, the motor will draw LESS current.

Run 'em all day at 15-20 scale MPH...they'll be fine.

What! are you sure about that because I know if the power goes low as in a brown out, electric motors are the first to go.

If they're stalled.

I've been an electrician for 40 years and I don't know how many motors I've replaced when the power has gone down to approximately 75% of the rated power. Some motors are designed to to go lower than others, but they will burnout just the same. The company I work for now has relays that cut out when the power drops below a predetermined value to protect the motors in the equipment.

Anybody who uses an MTH Z4000 or other transformer with current and voltage readouts can see that at lower train speeds (i.e. lower voltage) the current draw is lower than at higher speeds.

Don't make me find an electrical engineer to get you a deeper explanation...

Sleeper, do the motors you've had to replace need to run at a specific, fixed voltage?  Do your trains need to run at a fixed voltage too?  Mine run any where from 5 volts to 20 volts.  What happens to your trains when you run them at 75% of the rated voltage?  See the difference?

Model train motors are made to run at different voltages; industrial motors are not.  You have to install a VFD to make an industrial motor be able to run at different speeds.

Well I'm not an engineer and I don't have a MTH Z4000, but that's why I'm asking about trains. I only know what I have experienced in my work although I have never been around to actually measure the current before the motors burned out.

Yes they have to run within 10% of the rated power although I have seen the voltage drop as much as 20% at certain times of the year. We don't allow the motors to run below 20% and when it get close, we are calling the power company which usually do some switching in their capacitor bank. I'm sure that train motors are variable speed, but I do notice excess heat when I'm drilling holes at lower speeds with my variable speed hand drill.

If One is running Post War, metal cars and the older steel/axle free rolling wheels, then there is a lot of Drag on the engine. On the Other hand, if one is running the Newer Scale cars, or modern cars with needle point bearings, this makes a huge difference. We run Lash Ups, 2-3-or more locomotives on long trains, moving like snails around winding hills and broad curves with Lionel Legacy/Odyssey Equipped Locomotives. It's never burned up our motors yet, (knock on wood), but every engine is properly lubed and has great traction tires.  I am referring to Diesels.  25 to 35 cars....

If we run long freight trains with Steam power, we run the newer scale cars and not more than 15.  However, if we Run Large Steam Power, articulateds, we go to 25 to 35 cars.

Its  Fun to Run Slow Trains, it's more Realistic, and gives you a kind of Satisfaction that can only be had in this Wonderful Hobby, Model Railroading. Enjoy the Excitement.

By the Way, I agree with Rich Melvin, He is my Favorite Engineer---765 NKP BERKSHIRE.

Merry CHRISTMAS....

 Y'know, I've noticed the same thing.  I believe it's caused by the slower speed of the cooling fan that's attached to the motor.

Rich,

   You take all the fun out of being an abuser with your engineering knowledge!

What a bummer.

PCRR/Dave

You may vary well be correct. I admit that I don't know a whole lot about variable speed motors.

Our seasonal community layout has a lion chief Thomas Engine...

I don't think I have to ever worry about it wearing out at slow speed... because  when the kids had it was was ALWAYS running full speed in REVERSE!

I can't figure out what the fascination is with 90 MPH in the tail...Poor Thomas- Doesn't know where he is going, but he's seen where he's been!

In a word, nope!

.....

Dennis

I put 30+ cars together with a mth e-8 aba and go flyin never had a problem flying over them 0-36 but it did good going slow

Apples and Oranges...

The motors in your refrigerator, air conditioner, etc. are induction motors. That means that even when the voltage into the motor goes down, they still try to run at the same speed! Since they are still trying to run at the same speed at reduced voltage, the current draw goes up. They draw more current as they to attempt to make the same power at a reduced voltage.

The motors in our model locomotives are NOT induction motors. Most of them nowadays are actually DC motors, but this principle applies to all the motors used in our model trains. When we reduce the voltage to the motors in a model train, the motor slows down. The lower the voltage into the motor, the lower the current draw.

Yes, slowing a motor down by overloading it is entirely different than controlling the speed with the voltage.  I don't run or try to run trains of 25-30 cars, my cars are old, heavy jobs from the 40s-50s and I like it that way. I do check for heat build up, though.

Wow, that was a lot easier explanation than I thought it would be!  Thanks Rich. 

Somehow, after a career working in power generating stations, I think I should have known that.  Maybe I did and just forgot...guess I had to dump something to make room for something more important to me now as a retiree.  Maybe something about trains?... 

Sleeper, I hope you weren't too put off by my first response to you; going back and re-reading it, it sounds a bit snotty.  Wasn't my intention, sorry if you took it that way.

I know what you mean. Now...what was my name again?