Does Technology Affect the Value of the Trains We Own? Help Me with Your Insights!

BlueComet400,

     I agree about the switch technology, I love the new Lionel FasTrack wireless Command Control Switches, being able to use 99 of them on a wireless basis, controlled from with a Legacy Cab2 or TMCC Cab1 is one great technological advancement.  

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

Thanks again for your help with my switch dilemma. You had suggested RMT switches as they are truly tinplate-compatible. I'm now the proud owner of 11 brand-new RMT O-72 switches and can't wait to get the trains rolling!!

i basically agree with what rOdnEy had to say. 

 

The value for me is in the play factor.  If a proto one engine gives me great enjoyment then  thats all that is needed ... for me.  Some of my postwar locos give me a fantastic train running/watching experience ...  and the only sound they make is a whistle or horn ( and a bicycle horn at that )  Lately I have bought a fair amount of Williams by Bachman and I'm thrilled when running and watching these locos pull my trains, even with their cheesey ( IMHO ) sounding horns and bells.... they still look great!!  

 

For me the value is in the experience I have when running and watching a locomotive regardless of the technology.  Heck my 2005 Lionel scale J 611 looks fabulous and pulls and runs great ... but the crew talk is so off the wall ridiculously non realistic that I rarely use it.  I'm not going to upgrade to the lasted version  of the Lionel scale J just to get the latest tech features ... the one I own now is just fine and I let my imagination do the rest when running it .... heck thats what I did when I was a kid ( and still do ) with my Lionel 2065 steamer anyway   Imagination has great value!!

 

 

 

Well, there is some prewar Standard gauge, prewar Maerklin, and  .... 

 

As a speculation, there may come a time in the future when vintage American-made trains may come back into renewed vogue (in the USA). Some would claim that they have never gone entirely out of fashion. It depends on what part of the greater train hobby community one poses the question to. I believe that, driven by both the evolving international situation and the lack of spare parts, Chinese-built trains, in general, are going to meet greater secondary and retail market resistance down the line.

 

I enjoy the new ones with all of the latest features, too.

 

YMMV.

 

Bob

Bob,

I couldn't agree with you more. Everything I own was manufactured from 1906 to 1934 by Lionel.

BlueComet400,

   Congrats on the purchase of your new RMT (K-Line) type switches, definitely some real nice switches you should be very happy with them in your layout.  When ever you get your layout up and running with your switches operating, please post some pictures or video for us to see here on the OGR.

PCRR/Dave

Great post, David! 

 

David spoke about the importers / consumers / features side of the equation.  I'll hit the technology side.

 

Most of us as users (operators) of toy trains find our comfort zone with technology and stay with it.  Many like conventional control. Conventional offers a centralized panel, multiple (possibly) locomotive control with blocks, and some distributed turnout and accessory aspects (pushbuttons on fascia).

 

Others have embraced command control.  But command control is a spectrum. 

 

A first generation command control system like DCC (although individual manufacturers offer enhancements) or TMCC (my preference) has enough basic technological capabilities to run trains (horn/whistle, bell, front/rear couplers, smoke, sound, speed control) and accessories (turnouts, accessories, lights, etc.).  It's in my comfort zone, reliable, and more than enough for what I need.  That ties me and users like me to TMCC generation locomotives or to those conventional ones that I can upgrade.  I'm not likely to buy a Legacy engine to run it with TMCC.

 

Second generation command control systems like DCS and Legacy offer advanced technological features.  Some of these features work well, some do not.  But as David noted, they provide a way for manufacturers to lure users to the next generation.  I imagine that most users will not migrate to newer systems or trains unless the features are really worth the cost or the rework needed to retrofit them into our layouts.  Each of us has to make that judgment call as to the importance of the new feature(s).

 

As David mentioned, money and demographics are important decision points.  At this point in my life (61), I need to get the layout operating on a regular basis so that the grandchild and any future grandchildren can play with it.  Changing technologies is not in the plan because it causes delays.  God willing, I'd like a few more decades to play with this myself.

 

George

 

I think you've hit on the essence of the model/toy train experience…Imagination!  When we were kids, the movement, the color, the smoke, the lights all combined to give flight to the image that we were somewhere else & in control. The fact that the technology was so reliable & creative in those postwar toys lent foundation to the illusions our imaginations fostered. Todays technology is indeed wondrous but hardly reliable. Now when you see smoke, you can never be sure if it's coming from the smokestack or the electronics frying.  I feel our imagination loses something in the desire to have the latest technological gadget, which, of course, will soon be superseded by the next technological gadget. Kinda makes me dizzy trying to keep up, not to mention financially stressed.  In the end it's still all about having fun…it's certainly not about monetary gain.  The inflation of train prices seen in the 80's & 90's will surely never come again so run'em & let'em smoke!!!

I am a conventional running guy. PW is my thing and, combined with PW remakes constitutes the majority of my roster. I do have other, modern (non-PW) renditions, but when I buy a new engine with command control, Legacy, etc., it is in SPITE of the tech features and not BECAUSE of them. I dislike paying all that extra money for features I do not care about and cannot use. However, occasionally an item will be so attractive to me that I will buy it despite the expensive tech features. Silly, I admit.

 

I do like the new sounds -- whistles and horns -- but could do without the chatter.

 

I'm quite happy and content with this scenario and enjoy both collecting and running my Lionels.

 

 

 

 

Technology sure does affect value.  In some instances it destroys it.  Best examples are the beautiful brass Right of Way locomotives that sold for $1300 to $2100 back in the early 1990s.  Now you can get them for $300 - $500 LN in the box.  I have 6 of them, fortunately bought relatively recently--not in the 1990s.

 

Hope to see you at Marty Fitzhenry's Sunday.

 

Lew Schneider

Ed:  On new trains, made during the "age of technology", does the conventional grading system regarding visual condition apply as it does to vintage trains?  If anything, the standards are tighter because ANY flaw on a new locomotive, made some time in the last 20 years, greatly affects it's value.  You simply assume that the previous owner was an enthusiast and took proper care of the item.  You don't anticipate kid's handling these new trains.

 

And, as to the value of operable technology, I have found that trains made only slightly before the popular advent of our various Command Control systems, or are not so equipped, are really "dogs" on the market.  An average engine without TMCC or DCS, might be worth 1/3 or less than a similar engine with a system.  And, of course, the system must work properly.  Any buyer of a new engine should "test drive" the engine to be sure that all technology is working well, and sellers must guarantee that the system works.  Lot's of room for arguments, here.

 

Paul Fischer

 

 

Ed, I loved OSI Proto sound when it first came out but having second thoughts now. How many Proto one systems are still running? How many parts are available? For me paying over $2000 for an engine is something like buying an Apple watch. Next year the watch will be old news and not worth much because of new technology. On the other hand a fine old mechanical watch can increase in value. Buying these new engines is like buy a computer. Every few years you need to replace it as the technology fails. As for this little baby, it will run forever. Don

For me it is a simple decision of price/function/RELIABILITY.  Having all the control and features would be nice, but above all I want it to run and be reliable.  I can't imagine having the reliability and compatibility issues I read on this forum, especially at those prices.  I like the electronic sounds, but I don't want any reliability issues with the engine.  So personally, I am thrilled with the price drops.  I "lost" money on my postwar and MPC stuff, but I can now buy things I could never justify before.
    I have worked in high end (almost can't fail) electronics most of my career. We actually do MRI type xrays on every solder joint/board we make.  That data is kept indefinitely for an "autopsy" on any units that do fail.  I know that these train electronics could be made very reliable but that evolution will take time, money and customer demand. I am fairly impressed with what they have accomplished so far.
As for gradong system, I don't think the grading system should change.  The description of what's being sold should evolve to adequately describe what is for sale including: what is not original;  what has been modified; and what features don't work, etc.  It is the description/explanation that is now longer and more complicated.  If you put new fancy electronics in a 1950 773 you should disclose that just as you should on any modifications on the newer electronic engines.
The bigger problem I see is with an item that was working and doesn't work for the new owner.  Or a feature that the owner never used and the second owner expected it.  You need to be able to demo what you are selling or provide a warranty (or no warranty).
Buying used electronic trains is now more like buying a used car or computer.  During certain conditions or certain software it locks up or fails.  The seller may or may not have known.  Or like a car it could just be poorly designed.  So the electronic train market is more buyer beware more than ever.
And like cell phones, computers, TVs, etc, the technology advances will kill the resale value of previous generations of electronic trains.  The reissues of postwar and prewar trains in various forms has already taken a huge toll on the prices in that market.
Stocks, land, and real estate are better overall investments than trains.  You may be able to resell a train at a higher price or you may have no buyers (as in the previous posts references on PS-1 trains).  You should buy to own it and be happy if you can resell it later.  The goal in any industry is to sustain or grow by creating new demand or replacement demand.  MPC, LTI and the current Lionel have done repeated remakes of past engines as well as new items.  Their job is to create new demand for their products which may need to kill the demand for the previous products.  Similar to the first iPhone 1 up to iPhone 6 or 10 or wherever they are at.  If you cannot create market growth with new customers, then you have to develop new product features that your current customers will want. Luckily with trains it is normal to have several different ones.  With cell phones, one is enough for most people.

Well, I am waiting for the 1-700E price to drop, so I can 2-rail one.  I am not yet seeing the drop.

 

Same with the scale GS-4 - I am ready, right after I finish the tires on this gorgeous FEF.

We all know that prewar and postwar trains still run almost as new as they were pulled out of the box back then. As for the newer equipment, it could be a hit or miss but most times, it is a hit. I've had very few issues with everything I've purchased in the past 25 years.

 

However, I have stopped buying anything pre-ordered and/or new out of anyone's catalogs for almost 10 years now. Pricing from some companies is way out there for newer electronics when the same piece with still desirable features can be had for a much more affordable price.

 

I'm quite happy buying PS1 or TMCC engines at pricing that stills allows me to pay my monthly mortgage. $2,000 for any engine is what I call ....!

 

I am into this hobby because of a love for trains that was sparked as a kid by real coal carrying trains run by C&O in WV in the 50's. That was enhanced by my Christmas toys of Lionel trains in 1954 which I still have. I have found myself playing more with my Legacy and TMCC engines because of the new sounds and great looks. I will upgrade my old 2-8-4 to TMCC myself both to get it into command control and also the love of "fooling" with the engineering aspects of toy trains.

I personally value based on looks, accurate detail of what the real engine looked like, and functionality, how easy is it to run.

The kids all like the functionality, they expect toys today to work realistically. Fancy sound boards attract them to play with the toys. They quickly can see an imaginary RR where they can control the trains, switches and accessories with this remote control that has become second nature to them in these days of hand held electronics.

Down the road, the kids of today will be putting a value on these trains, and I suspect that the capability of the electronics will make the difference, along with realistic looks.

And I find myself thinking the same way. I really enjoy running 3 trains on my 3 loops of track with 18 switches that I can control from my high stool overlooking my RR empire that I have created with my own hands.

In my opinion, technology has affected the value of the trains today and will definitely effect the value into the future. Running my old steam engine with just smoke and a tender whistle gets boring to this old man.

Ed......I'm hoping the LCCA records your talk for those of us not able to go the Boston.

 

After a 10 year hiatus 1970-80, I have been operating and collecting continuously since. I have embraced the new technology. I still love my PostWar and MPC trains, but for the most part, they sit on the shelf. If I am buying a new or used train, the electronics package must work....because I am not skilled to do the repair work myself....and the repair could be very costly.

 

Peter

 

 

 

 A feature dropped, may one day be coveted regardless of age, and new tech can die off for many reasons making it worthless.

 

So its not the tech directly. Its the desire for "whatever" that sets values.

 

 I'd say grade 8-10, no operations should come into play.

 

 Graded any lower, an optional, complimentary operations grade, could be added.

I think that it would work well without screwing with the collectors grading by putting much pressure on sellers to put it on the track to be run.

  If that pressure did arise, and it overtook the pressure to keep a grade 8+ off track, the functionality of that piece would be the new true measure of its value at 7-8 anyhow, raising value of the higher un-run grades in turn.

 

The more I think about it, that's how it should be done. Let the market decide which is of more value, "mint" or "operating grade 7+".

 

As far as new tech in an older train? Much like a repaint, that can be its own operations grade, value to be determined more individually. e.g  7+ op rt tmccV1.5 (grade 7+, operating, re-tech to tmcc version 1.5 [v1.5? I made that up])

Technology makes me NOT buy some locomotives.

 

I am a scale, conventional, operator who has recently purchased (although it is still in the box) a Legacy Command Set.  I have purchased Legacy as more than half of my current 12 engine fleet have TMCC (3rd Rail, Atlas, K-Line). As I move into the command area, I find that if I want to run multiple engines, there are definitely limitations. 

 

Apparently Legacy engines do not run great with TMCC engines.  DCS does not run with TMCC.  Thus, if I want to run Legacy its Legacy engine with Legacy engine, or TMCC engine with TMCC engine, or DCS engine with DCS.  This has caused me NOT to purchase specific engines as they do not play nice with others.  Yes, I could change electronics, but why should I have to spend $150+ to do so?

 

Jim

 

p.s. I also agree with the posts that for modern trains, the classic TCA grading standard only tells half the story.  There needs to be a dual standard established that also takes into account operating condition.

Jim:  All the systems are compatible.  Can't do MU type operations (some call that "lash-up") between engines of different systems, but you certainly can run any of those engines on the same layout, the same track all at the same time.  Further, your Legacy controller will also control the old TMCC, and, I understand that DCS can also be made to control TMCC engines.

 

Paul Fischer

Paul Fischer,

    Technology today has come pretty far, both DCS and Legacy, set up in the proper manner, can now control your conventional engines right from their hand held remote controls.  Some people like me really love it, others want to run from the base transformer in a more conventional manner, the great thing is, today an operator can do either one. 

PCRR/Dave

So far, this thread has focused on internal technology.  I think external technology has also had an effect on train values as well.  Specifically I am thinking of the internet.

 

With the internet, it has become easier to find items that you want, and with that comes increased competition on both sides of the deal.  With common items, it has driven prices down as more sellers have to compete with each other, and regionally-rare items are no longer rare when a buyer can find items easily in other parts of the country.  And with really rare items, more buyers can find the items and have to compete, so the really rare items rise in price.

 

Andy

Paul,

 

What I want to do  is MU them together, which is one that you can't do with the different command systems.

 

Jim

A closely related question is: Does the presence or absence of technology in a train

item affect your purchase?  I think many of the answers here says it does, and many

want technology, which means more items will have it whether the others want it and want to pay for it, or not.  I do know the availability of conventional items has been

greatly reduced, and where once items were available both ways, that is no longer true.  Whether that was from buyers voting with their dollars, or mfrs. choosing to

cater only to the tech market, I don't know.  Fewer airlines, fewer auto makers, fewer

train makers=sellers' market, take it or leave it?

Colorado

It is a sellers market only if you want the very latest technology and you want it right now.  If not there is an abundance of offerings on the resale market, at train shows, on the internet forums, on EBay so a buyer can generally get what they want for a lot less money and a great deal of the time the resale is mint or like new.

 

Andy,

    I agree and unfortunately I had this exact thing happen to me.  I wanted to put together a few Wellsville Addison & Galeton (WAG) Premier Atlas O, Steam era Box Cars to pull behind my Legacy Shay Engine, making a more complete WAG logging steam era train.  However there were so few of these WAG Steam Era Box Cars actually produced, the price on these Atlas O Premier Box Car rose from $42.95 for the few NEB left around, to $65.00 plus shipping in the blink of an eye.  Further these were the Steel Side referb WWII  Box Cars, there were no Pre War Original Woodside two tone WAG Box Cars even available at any price, except in N Gauge, which did not help me a bit with my O Gauge train layout.  External technology was definitely the cause for the big price increase, the owners of these particular Box Cars tracked our search inquiries on the net and after a few box cars were purchased at the original $42.95 cost, the asking price was then re-adjusted to between $59.95 & $65.00 depending on the vendor and number of cars available.  I have 4 of these WAG Atlas O Box cars now, all purchased at different prices as the cost increased.  On the other hand I was real lucky and picked up the K-Line Skeleton Logging Cars from one of the OGR members for a really reasonable price.  

The external technology effect was both good and bad as I put together the Legacy WAG Logging Train.  You are absolutely correct it definitely does happen, and very quickly.

PCRR/Dave

Actually I think neither of the big 2 manufacturers do a very good job with electronics. It is not their field and it shows.  I wish they had concentrated on building accurate model trains and fun toy trains and leave the electronics to a 3rd party with a standard universal system. Had they done that the system could have been developed much better, manufactured cheaper and made more reliable.

 

Both systems are lacking in that they do not have a positioning system and do not look at the layout as a whole. Instead they focus on a remote which just runs an engine or bunch of engines. The system is basically stupid because there is no universe of the layout and the position of each train is not known. I imagine in real railroading their system accounts for where every engine and car is at a given time. 

 

I like technology but run conventional. I use conventional, not because Command it is too advanced or I can not understand it but because it is poorly designed and substandard. With modern technology that is available there is no excuse for this. 

 

Dale H

I disagree with your analysis Dale H, and although there are many Differing Opinions concerning Command Systems in our O Guage World, I Give Lionel, MTH A BIG Pat on the Back for Giving us Their Best.....Conventional is OK for the modeler who wants to simply run trains the Old Fashioned Way. I choose to go with the Legacy Control System, only because all of my locomotives are TMCC/Legacy. I like the nearly real sounds, and the versatility of roaming around the Layout and not stuck behind a mountain of transformers and toggle switches. it's our Choice of which system we like, as it is yours. To me, getting the VisionLine Big Boy, and VisionLine Challengers and other locomotives running is simply Amazing, and Loud....WOW, It's the Best Time in Model Train History....TMCC- DCS--DCC for HO and N---Then there's Legacy, My Favorite.  Happy Rsilroading...

Just for the record, The QUESTION, Is, Does this New Technology Affect The Value of our

Toy Trains, YES, Look at Lionel's DieCast ES44AC's GE hybrids, BNSF, UP BOY SCOUT Locomotive, Etc, They are selling for a lot more than catalog list prices...

HAPPY RAILROADING....

 

 

 

 

 

I.M.H.O.

I see the biggest entry into the market as middle aged men looking for a hobby and when they get to their local hobby shop they see these great new items from MTH, Lionel and Atlas and that's where their $$$$ is headed. The post war collectors and operators are dying off much faster than than any new collectors. If the technology had not advanced the market place so much on the last few years than the older post war trains would have continued to appreciate.

Larry, you kind of made my point. 2 companies with proprietary systems impeding outside development instead of countless people who could develop an open system. Imagine computer software if only 2 companies had a monopoly with limited resources. There would be much fewer vendors. All you would get is what they decided to develop and it would be expensive and antiquated.

 

To answer the original post question,it may affect value in the short run,but in the long run the technology will be obsolete. The question is are buys buying items for short term use,5 years or less or do they want to pass the trains on to their kids as PW trains were? Are we buying model trains or are we buying technology? If it is technology,MTH and Lionel are sadly out of their league.

 

Dale H

Strange that my first new blog post should relate to this very topic. Technology plays a large part in my decision making process when buying a new locomotive and it all began with each of my first MTH DCS and Lionel TMCC locomotives.

 

Read it here on my new website.

 

https://trainwizard.wordpress....command-locomotives/

 

 

 

The proprietary lock down is hindering the progress in my eyes too. Sure there were reasons to stop. But if its lasts forever? Plain and simple, advancement suffers...... 

 

.......  The popularity of those items listed are more based in the engines themselves than the tech involved. Ie they are not being bought just for any one technological advancement I'm aware of, but are being bought for collectability/nostalgia, looks, and relevance. (a chase light isn't a technical marvel, but they are very cool!)    

Larry, that's an interesting way to view the question.  I was thinking of it more as, "Does the technology in newly released products affect the value of earlier trains we already own?".

 

The items you mentioned are certainly "hot items" nowadays.  However, EVERY era has seen its share of hot items, and there's seldom any rhyme or reason what they will be.  As nice as the VL Big Boy is, I don't think it'll make the cut as one of these super desirable items where price endlessly escalates thru the roof (like we saw with the die-cast ES44's).

 

We might think that limited availability of product is the prime reason prices sky-rocket.  But the cynic in me believes we're more often than not just "convinced" by a critical mass of sellers that certain items are hot at any given point in time.  As a result, more folks want to own these valuable, hot items in their "collection" -- whether they're operators or collectors -- because they think they'll garner a guaranteed profit when they feel like selling one of these hot items.

 

Technology certainly adds to their appeal.  No doubt about that.  But why hasn't the Big Boy (which has gobs of technology) seen a rapid price escalation the way the die-cast ES44's did?    BTW, I actually think the prices of the ES44's have peaked, and the days of folks being able to flip them for a guaranteed profit are history.    Still pricey... but they've topped out.  

 

OTOH, the Big Boy came out of the gate at much too high a price-point, so there's really nowhere for its price to go but down.  Dealers still have them to sell -- nearly 8 months after they hit the street.  So after-market sellers don't have a prayer to flip them for a profit.

 

So yes... I hate to admit it... but I think the driving factor for every era's short-list of hot items has more to do with folks thinking they'll be able to flip them for a handsome profit rather than any inherent technology features per se.  The technology gets the items on our radar screen, but the technology alone doesn't get them on the hot-list of highly desirable items -- nor does it keep them on that list for a period of profit-making.  Just my humble opinion, of course. 

 

David 

 

quote:

I.M.H.O.

I see the biggest entry into the market as middle aged men looking for a hobby and when they get to their local hobby shop they see these great new items from MTH, Lionel and Atlas and that's where their $$$$ is headed. The post war collectors and operators are dying off much faster than than any new collectors. If the technology had not advanced the market place so much on the last few years than the older post war trains would have continued to appreciate.

 

Maybe so, but over time, many of today's operators will drift into collecting. We see lots of collector themed threads with plenty of participation from folks who claim to be operators, not collectors.
Most operators have a lot more trains than they could ever use.

And IMHO, no matter how many features, or how big the layout, running trains gets old after awhile. Some leave the hobby, and some shift their focus to collecting.
IMHO, most of the fun in operating trains is planning and building the layout, including scenery. I don't think I am alone on this. (Hope I did not offend anybody)

We also have to remember than in order for any of this stuff to have value, someone has to want it. Prices have softened on mid-grade Postwar and Prewar. But high grade items are still appreciating. And the prices of low end stuff is going up as the number of people interested in buying that stuff and fixing it up increases.

I would also like to point out that according to what I've read in antique collector / dealer journals, general interest in collecting ANYTHING is much lower with younger folks. They live in smaller spaces, and are more mobile than previous generations. Such a lifestyle does not lend itself to collecting (or operating trains).

But in the end, it matters little to me. The money I spent on trains is spent, just like the money that went to other forms of entertainment.  I never considered my trains to be an investment.
IMHO, it is not a good idea to purchase trains with the expectation of profit, or even recouping your investment.

The value of trains to me is that I have used them to create an artistic fun setting that hopefully all can enjoy. There will be a smaller amount of collectors and operators in the generations that will come after us so in monetary terms the value will decrease. There is no disappointment as I never purchased my trains with the idea that they would be an investment. If they are used to bring joy and make others happy then they have met their purpose.

What I am buying and looking for today are locos with nothing but a DCRU in them. 

If I can't fix it on my own bench I don't want it. I have seen the tech out there......but have no interest in it. 

Maybe 25 years as a Senior Systems Analyst has something to do with it. 

Dennis - very well stated!!  I whole heartedly agree with you!

I was thinking of the variances possible in the word "value" as I thought about how the post about the skyrocket priced Vision line refers that are out.

If a no-tech version is/was produced, could the willingness to pay over normal retail be diminished by the lack of tech? Ie is the scale the draw, or the gadget.

 

As most things in life, maybe the answer is almost always() going to be "well sometimes" and "yes but" 

Neither, IMHO.  

 

I could be completely off with my thinking here.  But I'm just wondering if the draw is really the fact that folks paying these hefty prices just think they'll be able to flip them at some point down the road for a higher price than what they paid.  Some will run them for awhile, and others will store them.  But even the "used" VL tankers w/freight-sounds typically sold for much more than MSRP on the secondary market in recent years.  And that's how many years after they hit the street?

 

Then again... Some folks just like to own something that they know is highly desirable.  Who knows?  Perhaps there's a little of that in all of us?   

 

David