Does Technology Affect the Value of the Trains We Own? Help Me with Your Insights!

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Then again... Some folks just like to own something that they know is highly desirable.  Who knows?  Perhaps there's a little of that in all of us?

Hmmm......wouldn't that make them collectors?

For those of you that can not attend, Ed and I discuss this topic at length during this episode of Notch 6. Ed's presentation will go much deeper than this, but this is a good cliff notes version. 

Thinking about what's been said/posted, I would pay more for engines and passenger cars with LEDs than with light bulbs, even though it probably costs less for the maker to use LEDs.

IMO LEDs are not "high tech", just modern tech, with light bulbs being almost archaic.

I'm at the point in my model railroading that I'd rather have an engine or car with more scale "appearance" (but not fragile) than have a bunch of gadgetry.  Make them so I can add any gadgetry I want, not what the maker wants me to have.

If engine (#1) was offered loaded with electronics and the same engine (#2, identical externally) was offered with only a DC can motor and directional lighting, engine #2 should cost less, maybe by a couple hundred dollars.

It surprises me that Lionel and MTH are even in the business of designing electronics, wouldn't have been to their benefit to go the route of DCC and offer engines DCC Ready?  Certainly it would have saved money or enabled them to spend it elsewhere.

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It surprises me that Lionel and MTH are even in the business of designing electronics, wouldn't have been to their benefit to go the route of DCC and offer engines DCC Ready?  Certainly it would have saved money or enabled them to spend it elsewhere.

It's my impression that Lionel went in their chosen direction because Neil Young had already developed most of the electronics for his son.

We can imiginate about the value placed on any given product, be it New, Modern to New, Old, Old to Postwar, to really Old, Prewar, and any speculation about the value is worthy of consideration, However, Any Product, boils down to one final conclusion, "A Sale is not a Sale until, the Buyer and the Seller Make an Agreement, and Money Exchanges Hands....Value Perceived, compared to The Asking Price, is Determined by what a Buyer is Willing to Pay....The Market is a Huge Factor in this Decision...

My understanding for the most part as well.

Not sure whether there were limitations of DCC that caused Neil to go down the path he did.  I think the "Big Red Knob" on the CAB-1 (and now CAB-2) was maybe part of it, as well as the older "Big Red Button" that you could plug into the remote to duplicate the last command (I believe that is what the button does, but I don't actually have one).

I'm not familiar enough with DCC to know what it's controller(s) look like, but I suspect they are not as friendly for people with special needs.

As to MTH, once Lionel did TMCC, they had to do something.  Mike must have seen limitations of DCC that he did not like as well, otherwise I'm sure he would not have spent so much developing DCS/Proto 2.  Love it or hate it, I think his idea has perhaps caught on!

-Dave

the majority of stuff I have is postwar & mpc - which I think the old grading system works fine for. That being said,  I recently decided to redo my layout in a more Hi Rail appearance & pick up a bunch of MTH NS engines. The reason - as both my kids get older, they want stuff they see when we go train watching & they love all the sound features.    I know the older stuff can be fixed with ease - the new stuff, not so much.  Fixing anything w/ boards in it is beyond me.   I try to only buy new PS3 engines so I have the warranty.  I have picked up a few older NS PS2 engines in the last month & I was very careful to ask a million questions about the electronics & if all the features work. The answers to   those questions would have a BIG impact on the price I would think is fair to pay. 

IMO, once again I think technology is the key here and I have to go with 'gadget' being the big draw. There are many other scale car sets with no gadgets that are not nearly as desirable and can be purchased at a reasonable price. I also think the auction in the other thread was a fluke. As others have previously said, things sometimes go wild in an auction causing a bidding war. My LHS still has this set (as of last Friday) at their normal discount which is slightly below MSRP. They are a small shop so I have to believe there are also new sets available elsewhere.  

It is the gadget for me even with more than 45 years in IT.  I would not have purchased the VL BB without the features nor would I have purchased the Acela without the opening doors and the operating pans.

Since I am an operator, not a collector, the electronics make a difference to me a great deal.  My old conventional stuff mostly sits.

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Dennis

I'm not too sure that was too clear (what's new) but I think it is too.

For this case.

I have been thinking about all this and personally I can't think of an instance where scale would ever override gadget in any of my selections? The gadgets are always the main attraction for me. It's why I got back into trains a few years ago.

Also, I think it has done a LOT to attract others like me into the hobby. Without the gadgets I think the hobby would be in a much more advanced state of decline today than everyone says it's currently in. Just my opinion here, of course.

Since I am an operator, not a collector, the electronics make a difference to me a great deal.  My electronic filled locos that no longer work mostly sits.

Funny how you can flip that statement both ways.........

the only loco I own that does NOT run like a watch is a electronic filled MTH PRR Q2 steamer......looks purdy though.....

Anyone care to comment on how Ed's talk went? I hope it was recorded.

Peter

Here are a few cell phone photos taken last night during Ed's presentation.  It was a full house and standing room only.  Ed did a great job walking through and explaining  the historical different technological advancements made by Lionel through the years.   There was also a very lively Q& A session.

al K. 

Good idea, a recording would sure be nice, would love to hear it. Or youtube video or anything.

I sat in on Ed's presentation last night and he did a great Job! Even better when the computer with photo's cooperated!!! 

yes, technology has a lot to do why I WON'T continue 3 rail. The stuff is outdated about 2 weeks after you buy it, then its on the rocketship down in value. I stick with my old "outdated" 2 rail, which continually runs, if it break it can be fixed easily without the costly parts and labor. Of course I have to live without goofy crewtalk sounds and no depleting coal loads, but I will suffer through.

Hi Ed. - Did anyone make a video, can you please post on the Forum.

This thread.

     I did listen to the Notch 6 - Interview. 

Gary

• Cheers from The 

 I don't think technology in our trains will inhibit their value in the coming years as much as demographics and current culture  will.

i have 18th century furniture that has lost half it's value in recent years as fewer people want to own these antiques. There was a time that people clamored for pre-revolutionary  pieces, but those days have gone. Same for our trains. 

Don't buy trains for an investment. It might be a good time to buy antiques as the prices are low!

Fred

My thoughts exactly regarding DCC, simpler, less expensive by far. A DCC board is more readily available today. Buy a DCC board 15+ years ago it will do the same things as a DCC board bought today. The price for a DCC board with no sound us $29-49 dollars and even cheaper for the smaller scales. It's great Lionel has Cab1 and Cab1L and Legacy and now Lion Chief plus etc, but I'm still in the Keep it simpler camp, DCC.

Hello

I have been reading the post here and others on the new stuff and learned a lot of good things, and found out about when things go wrong they do in a big hurry !

High dollar stuff that breaks down and it when dose most likely its done for the day.

I do like how far the new has come .

Pulling power,Smoke ,Sound,track,remote control, etc..

The new stuff is so cool and has its place in the hobby and has to . 

Got to have all those bells and whistle's or the new people will not even look it.

Run stuff by I-pad and cell phone is the latest and greatest.

But with me I like the old school stuff and that is what I want to run,

I deal with tec all day at work and the last thing I want is more when I get home.

Now things do not always go right there too, but most likely  its easy fix and one is on their way.

After this past week with a $800k system ready to crash and burn,

I am glad its not my weekend to be on call ! 

Most likely they will call me anyway

In the end one must be happy in what kind of trains one runs.

As we are here to play with our Toy Trains ; Just don't tell anyone else that

JW

I believe it adds value long term,  especially when you figure in the younger generation,  as small as that percentage is,  they are tech buyers and most 20 somethings or younger that I know who enjoy trains it is all about the technology and features.

Time will tell though.................. 

Mark

I recall being told that at the time TMCC and then, eventually, DCS was developed, DCC control systems would not work with AC powered trains and track systems.  TMCC used some of the features of DCC and then DCS followed with even more similar features, plus some extras like the voice programs.  I don't know if this is still true today but as far as TMCC and DCS has gone, I, for one, would not be willing to change to the DCC system.  The very fact that both systems are compatible, that is you  can run trains of either system on the same track without affecting the other, means that you really don't have a problem with these systems any more.

And, as to the issue of desirability of the these modern control systems, I have some trains that go back to the very first Command Control systems using TMCC and these trains have been working just fine for perhaps 20 years, have required very little in maintainance, and present no service or operational problems.  I no longer run any conventional trains at all any more, except around the tree at Christmas time.

Paul Fischer

The failure rate of modern model train (or other minor consumer ) electronics is alarming to me. The model train companies can't afford the testing and research that Apple or Samsung spend in making their electronics more hearty. Not enough R&D in the very small runs of model train electronics. Already WAY too many failures to mine today.  Will DOA trains be worth MORE in the future???

Could Ed do this presentation Thursday morning at York in October and would you be interested?

Don.....great idea.....Thursday Am at York would be great!

Peter

I may be the exception here, but this has not been my experience with command control engines. Out of 17 engines (13-PS3, 1-PS2 and 3-Legacy) in the last 3-4 years I have had only a couple of small problems, all easily fixed. Just recently I have had a 2 year old PS3 that I am having trouble with the ditch lights all of a sudden. The worst problem I had was my Legacy 990 base would not update to 1.53 when it came out. Remote updated fine, but base had to go to Lionel for repair.

I agree with the small runs and less resources for testing, they are very small companies in the world of manufacturing electronic items. They also have their factories half way around the world from their offices. This has to be difficult. For the added features and benefits provided by the command control engines it has been well worth it to me. I am very satisfied with everything I have and have no complaints. For the resources the train companies have I think they are doing pretty well.

About this time last year I bought two new mother boards (and other parts needed) to upgrade our home computers. They were from a well known manufacturer that is based in Taiwan and manufacturers their products there. They have been in business for quite a few years. They were not the top of the line, but were some of their upper end boards and not the cheapie, low end models. All 10 USB 3 ports failed on one of the boards after about 5-6 months and I had to send it back for replacement. They did have an easier replacement plan than our train manufacturers. They send you a new board and you return the old one after the replacement is up and running (no down time to speak of). Still had to pay return shipping just like returning a train product for repair.

Just for fun I wonder what the problem rate would have been had I purchased 17 different models of those mother boards? They did provide a 5 year warranty though, so that was much better than the train warranties.

My TMCCs are run in conventional. I've only had smoke unit issues.

 The new whistles are finicky on PW controllers, and new controllers don't work well with PW whistles IMO.

I was dabbling in postwar Lionel and O27 because I was comfortable with the low tech nature of good old analog AC power. I sold off my postwar equipment and did OK recouping my costs so I could move into scale O. I was able to shag an atlas SW9 in conventional mode, which I am going to have converted into two rail with Loksound decoder etc.

For some reason I could never quite get into all the new TMCC, etc. locos and such so I am going back to what is essentially DCC HO in a much larger scale. For me, after all those years in HO, it just seems more comfortable than high tech 3 rail. I know that in HO the guys that have older DCC locos, and have collected analog brass locos over the years, have been hammered in the market when they go to sell. Everyone seems to want the newest technology, in every scale.

All in favor of Ed on Thursday AM. Definitely would be there. Sure hope that he will do it.

The old rule that the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it holds true. I am not a collector and buy the items that I want solely for enjoyment, not as a dust collector for a closet. I could not care less about "grading standards". Electronics, the proms and integrated circuit boards are changing so rapidly that a lot of original electronics are obsolete after as few as 5 years. Fortunately, it is possible to bypass the electronics and still have an operable model. I think that model railroaders are both getting older and the number of us is shrinking, which does not bode well for a reseller. I do sense that the major manufacturers are introducing fewer steam locomotives, with a new emphasis on diesels and modern railroading. The fact that the price point of a modern diesel with electronics is about half that of a steam locomotives means that a lot more modelers can justify the price, so that builds volume. 

I find it funny that people are drawn to the hobby of model railroading because of the technology that runs the trains rather than because they like trains. If technology were my passion I would go for RC cars as a hobby rather than trains. High tech and no layout to build and maintain!

It has to be more than technology that attracts people to trains, whether in model railroads or toy trains. If the hobby becomes simply a way to use technology, to play with expensive "toys", then perhaps model railroading as we have known it in the past is on the way out? If a "passion" for tech is greater than that for trains then it makes sense that the more tech squeezed into a train the better.

I have liked trains since I was small child. I am in the hobby today because I like trains. The technology that makes my little trains run is not as important to me as the trains themselves. If a traditional transformer and E-unit is all I need to make the train go, that suits me just fine. If a power pack and hand held remote was all that was available to run trains, I would have to use that. I think at some point I would just hook up some batteries to the tack just to make my trains run! Or look for old wind up locos to use!

I agree with what Bob said a few pages ago, but will go a little further. I live in a 1920's circa house and run my USA made 1939-42 Lionel prewar steam switchers...that's all the technology I need! Quite happy to hear bell-ringing tenders or bell-ringing crossing guards, etc. Most of my stuff I can fix by myself...

Not too concerned about prices at this point since I don't plan to be buying much more.

Tom 

DCS technology and Legacy is not why I like model trains but it is why I finally got into the hobby and committed. I have always liked model trains but failed two different times to get started with HO. What new technology has allowed me to do is run trains on a layout the way I always wanted to -- deliberately and with a purpose. That is speed control and electrocouplers plain and simple. I can use switching maneuvers to build a consist and then sit back and watch it go around and enjoy the sounds. I like modern conventional as well.

I also heard that the TMCC technology was developed well before the 90's.  It wasn't cutting edge then, but extremely reliable.  Neil's company LionTech simply adapted it for toy train usage.

George

It isn't that I don't like trains, but the modern technology of command control, cruise control etc. is what really got me back into the hobby. The combination of the two is what makes it all the more fun. I have always been interested in trains and electronics so the two together is a perfect match for me and I think they compliment each other very well. I have DCS and Legacy and someday I would also like to have a DCC system (much more to fiddle with in a DCC system).

From my perspective, I think your statement above "perhaps model railroading as we have known it in the past is on the way out" pretty much sums up my way of thinking. The latest Lionel catalog contains very few conventional only sets. Not even close to what they had even a year or two ago. They are even adding command control to accessories. I think MTH has only a few tinplate sets available in conventional only and I think they are priced the same as the PS3 versions of the same sets. WBB is working on their bluetooth control system, we'll just have to wait to see what happens there. If that is a bog hit will they continue making conventional items?

Now the largest manufacturers in O gauge are all moving toward apps for smart devices to control our trains. The DCS and Legacy remotes that I am currently so fond of may be going the way of the conventional train sets in a few more years when they get the apps and wifi stuff perfected. I definitely think the times are changing and the hobby is following right along with the times. I think your next statement "If a "passion" for tech is greater than that for trains then it makes sense that the more tech squeezed into a train the better." applies here. Younger people seem to be a lot more 'tech' oriented than older generations. It appears the manufacturers seem to be in agreement.

While this is probably not good for all the conventional runners still out there, I think it is good for the hobby as far as attracting new folks to the hobby. Especially some of the younger ones that are most interested in their smart devices and apps. This could very well attract some of them to the hobby, we can only hope.

Electronics are a great thing. It attracts a number of people into the hobby and this hobby needs all the people it can get. I hope Lionel , MTH etc. sell lots of trains. Then I can buy the older ones that I like at half- or less- the price. I recently bought a ZW, primarily because I always wanted one. I don't expect my collection to be worth much when I am gone but it makes me happy while I am here. For folks my age the nostalgia factor is huge. Now if someone will just make wide radius Super O switches I will have reached nirvana.