ERR Upgrade Newbie- 6/11/22 Update- Final Assembly and Road Test....Sort Of

@RSJB18 posted:

So now I need to jump into MTH upgrades??????

Well, I suppose you can buy similar screws...

@RSJB18 posted:

I pick option two.

@RSJB18 posted:

@Lionelski- thanks John. I find this stuff enjoyable.

OK- I may be crazy........

Was there ever any doubt???

WOW! Tough crowd......

@RSJB18 posted:

WOW! Tough crowd......

You had to see that coming after your comment.

@RSJB18 posted:

Today I got the capacitors on the motors and AC comm board installed and tested. So far so good. More to come.

Bob

Bob, I must have watched your video a dozen times now. I just love watching the Pullmor motor armatures spin up, the solid acceleration, the unwavering track that just looks rock solid, and the sound of wheels rolling smoothly on rails. I'd almost rather watch them run without their shells on

George

Bob, with the AC commander, a Pulmore dual-motor engine should have pretty good control, even decent low speed performance.  Once I added the second motor and swapped out the old LCRU for an AC Commander, I was quite impressed with the consistent low speed performance of the engine.  I shot this a while, but I was able to even get lower speed consistency.  I was planning on swapping out the motors for DC motors, but after I dropped the second AC motor in, I decided it ran well enough not to spent the time and money for the change.

I installed an ERR AC Commander kit, with Rail sounds in a coal car, I think it is 608805.  Now I just need to modify the engine to connect to it. 

John- I had considered swapping the pullmor's for can motors but the added expense made this project a bit over the top. It looks like these had very little runtime based on the condition of the brushes. I didn't program the board yet, the test run was in factory default settings. I'm sure I can get it running better once I play with the momentum and speed settings.

@TB440- looks like you got the hard part done. Good work.

George- Thanks. I'm impressed with how well these motors run too. I agree that the spinning armatures look cool. Can't beat the sound either.

Bob

Make sure the AC Commander is in 100 speed step mode. You'll get decently smooth starts for an AC motor locomotive. Here's a set of 2343 F3s I added an AC Commander to:

I've got the same blue & yellow Santa Fe freight F3s in ABBA (I've had them since I was a kid in the 90s). I installed an AC Commander, Electrocoupler, and cab interior in the powered F3A, a LCRX in the RSII F3B to get command control of the sounds, and a LCRX, Electrocoupler, and cab interior in the non-powered F3A to get directional lighting and coupler control. I didn't want to add tethers between the units so I used the extra electronic components. I'll try and take a video of it later today. 

That's a nice set Lou.

So I re-shuffled the boards and speaker as John had suggested. Looks like everything will fit (was there any doubt when the expert offers advice?) . I need to make up some brackets to hold the AC Comm board and it should be good to go. The 9v battery will fit behind the rear motor.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

The 9v battery will fit behind the rear motor.

I'm shocked you're not using the YLB - RailSounds Battery Replacement (RS-Lite), battery indeed!

After all, I have to get something out of this exchange.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm shocked you're not using the YLB - RailSounds Battery Replacement (RS-Lite), battery indeed!

After all, I have to get something out of this exchange.

Yes of course. I think I still have one on the shelf. If not I know who to call......

I decided to use this Blue Streak engine.  I used the chuff switch inside the engine, originally used for the Mighty sound of steam. 

I fabricated the bracket for the AC commander board last night and did a test fit of everything. We are good to go. While I had everything together I did a test of the sound board and all  functions are working.

Bob

Bob, that is impressive. I wouldn’t know where to start on such an undertaking.

Here ya go. I've had an ABBA set of these Santa Fe freight F3s since I was a kid in the late 90s. A couple years ago I finally upgraded them to TMCC. ERR AC Commander in the powered A unit, LCRX in the RailSounds II B unit to give it TMCC control, LCRX in the non-powered A unit for lighting and coupler control. Added cab interiors and electro-couplers to the nose of each A unit as well.

Lou- that set looks great. My layout barely fits the AA as is.

Jay- thanks again. I like to dig into projects like this.

Bob

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

Bob, that is impressive. I wouldn’t know where to start on such an undertaking.

One step at a time Jay, pretty soon you have it all working.

Nice job, Bob!  Yours is great too, Lou!

I have 2 MTH ProtoSound (PS1 if you will) that I had thought of upgrading to PS3, having already done one such upgrade.  However with the lack of MTH upgrade kits, I’m thinking of going with ERR since I have a TMCC controller also.  One is an AA set, with one unpowered unit, the other is an ABA set with two powered A units.  Yes, the ABA set is really too long for my layout that is a little larger than Bob’s.

It might be a good idea to start buying enough of everything needed for both upgrades.  I’ll have to get a list together, and your discussion helps with that, Bob!  Thank you for the documentation here.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Nice job, Bob!  Yours is great too, Lou!

I have 2 MTH ProtoSound (PS1 if you will) that I had thought of upgrading to PS3, having already done one such upgrade.  However with the lack of MTH upgrade kits, I’m thinking of going with ERR since I have a TMCC controller also.  One is an AA set, with one unpowered unit, the other is an ABA set with two powered A units.  Yes, the ABA set is really too long for my layout that is a little larger than Bob’s.

It might be a good idea to start buying enough of everything needed for both upgrades.  I’ll have to get a list together, and your discussion helps with that, Bob!  Thank you for the documentation here.

Mark- I'm sure John will chime in but from what I understand, it's better to wait for the PS 3 kits on MTH engines. I believe there are enough differences between the two that waiting is better. Remember, it says "newbie" in my thread title for a reason. I think the EC's would need to be changed at a minimum, maybe smoke units too?

I have a few PS-1's that I want to do also but they will wait until the kits are available again (we hope).

The easier part is mostly done on this one, now to tackle the lighting and tether.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

Mark- I'm sure John will chime in but from what I understand, it's better to wait for the PS 3 kits on MTH engines. I believe there are enough differences between the two that waiting is better. Remember, it says "newbie" in my thread title for a reason. I think the EC's would need to be changed at a minimum, maybe smoke units too?

I have a few PS-1's that I want to do also but they will wait until the kits are available again (we hope).

The easier part is mostly done on this one, now to tackle the lighting and tether.

Bob

Honestly with either a PS3 or ERR upgrade all the wiring and electronics are being removed from the locomotive, so with either one you're starting from the same place. I've installed an ERR Cruise Commander and RailSounds Commander in a MTH PS1 AS-616 and it works great. So realistically you can go either way.

Actually, there is no special hurdle to upgrading MTH locomotives to TMCC or PS/3, and the labor is pretty much the same, and the price isn't all that different.  In truth, an A-A or A-B-A with two powered will probably be cheaper with TMCC as you can run four motors with the Cruise Commander or Cruise Commander M if you do a small mod and give the electronics a tethered bridge.  For a PS/3 upgrade of the A-A or A-B-A with two powered units, you have to use two upgrade kits.

Thank you, Bob, Lou, and John!

I was aware you had to put a complete PS3 upgrade kit in each powered engine and run them as a 'lashup'.  What I didn't know was that you don't need a second ERR for the second powered unit if you go that route.  I signed up to be notified when PS3 kits are available, but I'm sure they will get snatched up by someone if I don't respond.  I'm thinking this would be a project for next winter so there isn't a hurry.  I'm able to make a simple bracket for the board like you did, Bob.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I was aware you had to put a complete PS3 upgrade kit in each powered engine and run them as a 'lashup'.  What I didn't know was that you don't need a second ERR for the second powered unit if you go that route.

For ERR, you can use a tether between the units and drive the second powered unit motors in parallel with the lead unit.  As I said, you do need to provide heatsinking for the Cruise Commander bridge rectifier, that's the part that's marginal with four motors if it doesn't have a heatsink.

Here's a Cruise Commander that I modified with the tethered bridge.  The bridge gets bolted to the chassis with some heatsink compound to give it greater power handling capability.  Although it's an 8 amp bridge, that's only if it has a proper heatsink, in free air like it is on the stock Cruise Commander, it's only good for a fraction of that current.

The failure mode without the tethered bridge is somewhat obscure as it's actually the driver FET's that fail.  However, this is due to the overloaded bridge having more leakage current, that's what actually kills the FET's.

Thank you, John.  That makes sense.

I've been busy with everything but trains lately. I finally made some progress over the weekend. I've been testing the lighting with the two-color LEDs for the markers and can't get it to work. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I decided to move forward without them for now. I can always add them in later.

I started with the number board lights. They look best mounted below the board shining up into the plastic. These are made of clear plastic and with the LED right behind, it looks like a headlight. I wrapped the LED with shrink wrap to limit the spill. Next I installed the headlight. I super glued a flat top LED to the back of the lens. Works well, and again added shrink wrap for spill.

The front electro-coupler is wired and tested.

I'm making plugs for all of the shell wiring so it can be completely removed for service. I also ordered cab interiors from Lionel and will add a cab light and figures (if I can find some).

Finally, I plugged in the speaker and GRJ's YLB battery on the RS board.  Once the lighting is done I can give it a road test. Then it's on to the trailing unit and figuring out the harness between both locos.

Bob

If you're lighting them from traditional TMCC outputs, you need common anode dual-color LED's to make it work, the more common type are common cathode, those won't work.

Here's a "generic" diesel configuration with bi-color markers front and rear and dual headlights.  Obviously, you can leave out one of the headlight LED's for a single headlight configuration.  The .01uf caps are only required for plain TMCC, the ERR boards already include these.  Note the single diode for reverse voltage protection for all the LED's in the configuration.

Click on graphic to expand.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you're lighting them from traditional TMCC outputs, you need common anode dual-color LED's to make it work, the more common type are common cathode, those won't work.

Here's a "generic" diesel configuration with bi-color markers front and rear and dual headlights.  Obviously, you can leave out one of the headlight LED's for a single headlight configuration.  The .01uf caps are only required for plain TMCC, the ERR boards already include these.  Note the single diode for reverse voltage protection for all the LED's in the configuration.

Click on graphic to expand.

I'm following your wiring to the letter John. The only thing I'm missing is the 1N4003 diode (ordered some today) for the ground connection but I don't think that's a major issue. I did buy common anode LED's as recommended. I can get the red to light with the headlight on, but not the green when it's off (I know that's backwards).

https://www.mouser.com/Product...amp;currencycode=USD

Also- on your YLB, what's the single red wire on the opposite end from the plug for?

Thanks

I'm not sure what to tell you.  I've wired a lot of engines with that wiring scheme, they work just fine.  The diode shouldn't affect the operation, only the longevity of the LED's.

The red wire on the YLB is how the YLB gets it's power, that's connected to the center rail power.

Note that the other color is wired to the reverse LED, so it has to be supplying power to light the opposite LED.

Took another stab at the bi-color LED's last night and I got them to work! I was using the resistors that John showed on his wiring diagram and couldn't get the green LED to light. So I swapped both for 220 ohm resistors and tried again. Presto! we have working bi-color lights!

John- I'm guessing that the LED's I bought are a different wattage/ voltage from what you use and they needed the lower resistance. I'm glad I figured it out. Now comes the tricky part, mounting them in the shell.

This is the headlight and green marker. The green is washed out by the white LED.

@RSJB18, thanks for editing the thread's title with the date; and, excellent photos.

Steve, if you wired it like my diagram, the different voltage of the LED's is not a problem, Each LED pair and each color has it's own resistor, so the operating voltage of the LED is never an issue.  I've wired lots of diesels with this identical setup, and they've worked fine.  The reason I don't use that low a resistor value for the markers is it makes the markers way to bright, at least IMO.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Steve, if you wired it like my diagram, the different voltage of the LED's is not a problem, Each LED pair and each color has it's own resistor, so the operating voltage of the LED is never an issue.  I've wired lots of diesels with this identical setup, and they've worked fine.  The reason I don't use that low a resistor value for the markers is it makes the markers way to bright, at least IMO.

I may play around with higher ratings again John. At least I got over the hump so now I can tweak it. I have cab interiors on order from Lionel so I won't install these until I see how the interior fits.

As always, thank for your help and advice.

Bob

Happy Monday- haven't posted an update for a while. Life does tend to get in the way sometimes, that and waiting for parts to ship and arrive.

I ordered F3 interiors and figures for the cabs. I got the lead unit done yesterday and added a LED for cab lighting that will be controlled by the smoke output on the Cab 1L. I didn't realize that the control stand was not included with the interior so I fabricated a crude one from some scrap styrene. A couple coats of paint and it's good to go.

A bit of surgery was required to get the figures down to the correct height.

Here's the wiring on the inside. The mounting holes in the top of the part made convenient holders for the wires from the LED.

After a stiff drink.......... I drilled the holes for the marker lights. I approached this shell differently. After looking at some photos of F3's I realized that the lights are flush in the curve of the nose, not pointing forward (the mistake I made on the other shell). I will thin out the back of the shell so the LED is close to the surface and I'm going to paint the trim silver to simulate a bezel/ trim ring around them.

Next step is to finish installing the markers and then tie in all the wiring.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

Happy Monday- haven't posted an update for a while. Life does tend to get in the way sometimes, that and waiting for parts to ship and arrive.

I ordered F3 interiors and figures for the cabs. I got the lead unit done yesterday and added a LED for cab lighting that will be controlled by the smoke output on the Cab 1L. I didn't realize that the control stand was not included with the interior so I fabricated a crude one from some scrap styrene. A couple coats of paint and it's good to go.

A bit of surgery was required to get the figures down to the correct height.

Here's the wiring on the inside. The mounting holes in the top of the part made convenient holders for the wires from the LED.

After a stiff drink.......... I drilled the holes for the marker lights. I approached this shell differently. After looking at some photos of F3's I realized that the lights are flush in the curve of the nose, not pointing forward (the mistake I made on the other shell). I will thin out the back of the shell so the LED is close to the surface and I'm going to paint the trim silver to simulate a bezel/ trim ring around them.

Next step is to finish installing the markers and then tie in all the wiring.

Bob

Outstanding work, Bob.  It's coming along really nice.

Now that’s an impressive undertaking Bob, Wow. Your efforts, like those of so many others, are intimidating.

Bob, you're finding the detailing is the time consuming part of the job!   I spend much more time on those kinds of tasks for upgrades than the actual wiring.

@Strap Hanger @Tranquil Hollow RR @gunrunnerjohn

Thanks for the likes and comments.
You hit it on the head John- the wiring for the lighting is time consuming. Gives a new appreciation for what goes on in the factories.

I had a request to provide part numbers for the cab interior.

These are the Lionel parts

8134-025     cab interior LIMITED         
8205-014     engineer figure LIMITED

I got mine from Jeff at The Train Tender

The figures I used are from MTH

FIGURE / ENGINEER / SEATED / FOR STEAM & EARLY DIESELS
SKU: FI0000047

FIGURE / FIREMAN OR BRAKEMAN / SEATED / O GAUGE STEAM & EARLY DIESEL
SKU: FI0000049

It's looking quite good, Bob! 

Thank you for mentioning The Train Tender.  I was trying to remember that name to tell a friend who is starting into postwar Lionel.

John, I can see just what you mean about the detailing being the time consuming part.