frustration with larger scales modern releases

You mean the manufacturers are only catering to one age group/demographic??  Shocking!

An SD70 in G scale would be pretty big.  I got rid of my G scale and around here it doesn't seem very popular. Of course, because of the weather, you can only run it half of the year. I think to expect all the various engines in all the scales is a little to much to hope for. Sad but true.

Hi Joe:

Sidebar • I find the cover story interesting. Being from Michigan.  Your thoughts on the hobby are interesting and like you say, "I guess in time, we will find out the truth."

Photo source: Railroad Model Craftsman - Web Page, not from the magazine. 

Copyright Infringement NOT intended.

Gary

Jim, you are right an SD-70 IS pretty big in G scale but you should see an autorack in G scale.  LOL WOW!!!!  They are freakin HUGE.  Would never take an 0-72 curve.  But G scale is sooooo cool.

Joe, I'm with you as far as modern equip in O scale and especially G scale.  Take the high cubes that American Mianline Models advertises.  They been advertising them for years and I don't think they are out yet.  I don't even buy older era models anymore.  What I'd love to see in G scale would be Amtrak Superliner cars in 1:29 scale.  I have 2 LGB Genesis Amtrak engines in G and would love some cars to match.  Although I model in 1:29 scale I am thinking about MTH big boy in 1:32 scale, just to have one.  That would probably tap into my train budget for the next 5 years.  Although engine prices are almost that high in O scale.

Rick

In the latest MR there is an article on the same topic--the state of the hobby. The article states the hobby is alive and well but that the people entering the hobby now want modern equipment. I found it very interesting. 

I guess I would ask just what your goal is Joe. Is it to amass a big collection of varied equipment? If that is what drives you then perhaps some of the availability issues can be frustrating. But pictures I've seen you post seem to show a pretty good bunch of assorted rolling stock and motive power...certainly more than enough to have realistic operating sessions. Maybe your a circle runner and are simply looking for variety to populate your trains? If that's the case then won't most anything on the shelves these days work towards that end? 

Bob

What cars do you want specifically Joe?

60ft box cars , 66ft gons, 86ft hi-cubes , 60ft tank cars ?

ENGINEER-JOE,

I hear you LOUD&CLEAR,what you said is what I been saying for years,and getting the same flack. But I have to think of Orville & Wilbur,think of all the criticism they endured & look at where their dream brought the flight industry. I don't think our ideas will have quite that amount of impact on the O Scale Industry,but we can still hope.

G Scale seems to grow while O Scale seems to go "south" according to the posts from manufacturers.(?) That doesn't make sense to me,but I'm sure I'm missing something. If that scale's growing,O should be next to "flourishing" by the numbers alone. G even has a double shelf coupler for it's tankers-where's O Scale's? If I follow a logical approach,due to the lack of space in houses today,G&O Scales should be on their way out,sadly. Of course most G Scale can be set up out doors,so that saves that scale as far as space requirements. O scalers still build for the most part,inside.

As far as modern equipment,and modern schemes on existing equipment,that doesn't seem to be progressing. For instance,the 4750 SCL yellow scheme,should've been available years ago,but was just announced last year-that's really out of timing. That car was done in HO 20 years ago. What's up with this scenario? Based on that,modern diesels will probably come,but maybe not in our lifetime.

All of this is Just My Opinions,of course.

Al Hummel

It's not just larger scales. Traditionally, most model people were into the steam era and modern stuff didn't sell nearly as well.

That's been shifting for a while now. I know several railfans (and not just the young ones, either) who are all about the newest stuff and wouldn't even cross the street to see something in steam going past.

There is plenty of modern G scale equipment being made.  Check out the ads in the garden railroad magazines.  

Hudson J1e posted:

In the latest MR there is an article on the same topic--the state of the hobby. The article states the hobby is alive and well but that the people entering the hobby now want modern equipment. I found it very interesting. 

I am seeing this happening at our HO club.  The younger members mostly buy and run modern trains.  The layout is set in the 1950 -1959 time period.  I wonder if the Pacific Fruit Express icing facility and large roundhouse will eventually be replaced by an intermodal facility.  

The HO club's minimum radius is 42 inches (O-84) and most curves are larger.  The switches are number 6 and larger.  This allows the smooth operation of large HO trains.

There is also a lot of outstanding modern equipment being made by Lionel, MTH, Atlas and others.  Every catalog is filled with SD70s, ESACs, etc.  One of our club members has an awesome set of Lionel modern auto racks.  The 2-rail guys will need to convince the manufacturers to make  these models easily convertible to 2-rail.  

One problem with 2-rail modern O gauge is that nearly all the equipment, freight and passenger, requires very large radius curves.  You need a large space or a club layout to run it properly.  Even O-72  curves are almost too sharp for the 3-rail equipment.

NH Joe

One reason "modern" O scale equipment may never be as commercially popular as transition era rolling stock is due to the length of today's prototype freight cars and the space they take up on a model railroad.  Add to that the far longer length of today's mainline freights compared with those in the steam-diesel transition era.  Consider how many modern freight cars (85' flats, tri level racks, 100+ ton hoppers, 25k gallon tanks) will be required for a train headed by several 4000 HP diesels to look "right".  Even using generous selective compression, a subjective guess would be at least a 20-25 car train.  Now consider the siding length to support operation of trains that long.  Factor in the larger radii and turnout #'s for 80' freight cars to look good passing over them,  and its hard to escape the conclusion that modern mainline modelling takes quite a bit more space for the same "effect" than transition era modelling.  Space  most folks don't have for a home layout, and why I believe modern era O scale modelling will remain a minority element within a minority scale. 

Product availability aside, if I were into modern mainline model railroading I'd go HO scale and run long freights on sweeping curves.  Added plus - shelf couplers! 

Personally I like the mass of O scale steam viewed close up at near eye level  - something many visiting HO'ers comment on - and the primary reason I converted to O scale.    

I had about 400 ft. of good G scale track out back, built wooden buildings, a roundhouse and turn table, coaling tower, water tank and a bridge. Loved it but the maintenance to keep it running was daunting. All gone but I have video which I enjoy watching. A modern EMD diesel with a long cut of cars would be a sight to behold and expensive.

The texts here are very enjoyable even the parts that sort of defeat what I'm going after in O Scale,such as the modern freight trains.

I like the longer trains but as pointed out,they don't look right in my mind as well as from what I have on tracks,meaning 100 ton grain cars and tankers. a 10-12 car train of 5161s is "pushing" the limits of realism unless one closes their eyes to the surroundings they're running through for a roughly 44x17 area,correct me if I'm wrong. That long of train is impressive,but by the time it's pulled out of yard tracks or the elevator sidings & assembled,your a good quarter or more around the available area. If you put a 20 car HO train of the same hoppers together,the area sort of "swallows up" the train.

Running a 10-12 car train on 50" curves,is that asking for a derailment using Protocraft couplers? I coupled a 50'6" boxcar & a 4750 cvd hopper with Protocraft's on & ran them on 45" curves without any glitches of any sort they even coupled on that curve,so I'm thinking 50" curves even with 6 axle diesels should be ok,but again I'm an amateur to O scale.

After 30 years in HO,HO lacks that "girth" that O scale posses. But again the cost is a factor which is eating me up.

Conclusion: Keep buying both HO&O & eventually end up without a working layout in any scale. JMO

Al Hummel

I wish I would have looked at it thru Ed's eyes (point of view) back when I left HO.

I skipped S scale as there wasn't anything to look at right then.

Now, I'm going to need a bigger house.

New Haven Joe posted:

I am seeing this happening at our HO club.  The younger members mostly buy and run modern trains.  The layout is set in the 1950 -1959 time period.  

I will always hold to my belief that ‘transitional era’ actually, for most people, translated to, “I/we run whatever I/we want to run” instead of an actual timeframe. I can’t count the number of ‘transitional era’ layouts where you see the newest diesel locos and cars alongside USRA-era steam.

Transitional era, being the timeframe between steam and EARLY diesels (again, a concept usually lost in what actually gets run) will vanish with the generations that saw this or heard people waxing poetic about it (which is my era as steam was long gone before I was born at the end of the 60s).

Seriously, I’m seeing a lot of train fans who couldn’t care less about steam, and I don’t mean just the teens or 20-somethings, either. I know plenty of train fans in their 40s and older who are only about the newest stuff on the high iron, many of whom wouldn’t waste their time going to ride steam at a tourist operation or excursion somewhere…

jim pastorius posted:

I had about 400 ft. of good G scale track out back, built wooden buildings, a roundhouse and turn table, coaling tower, water tank and a bridge. Loved it but the maintenance to keep it running was daunting. All gone but I have video which I enjoy watching. A modern EMD diesel with a long cut of cars would be a sight to behold and expensive.

I've often entertained ditching all of my (P:48) brass that I've spent years building up and doing garden O scale railroading with signalling and cab video.     We both love gardening building and this would eliminate the basement size layout restriction.

I would imagine that outdoors needs to be battery powered and lots of fuss with keeping track gauged and in one piece.

Back on topic, manufacturers build what the buying public supports, whether it be wood burners or SD ACEs.. .    Plain and simple.

New Haven Joe posted:

Hudson J1e posted:

In the latest MR there is an article on the same topic--the state of the hobby. The article states the hobby is alive and well but that the people entering the hobby now want modern equipment. I found it very interesting.

Joe,

I am seeing this happening at our HO club.  The younger members mostly buy and run modern trains.  The layout is set in the 1950 -1959 time period.  I wonder if the Pacific Fruit Express icing facility and large roundhouse will eventually be replaced by an inter modal facility.  

I'd say you are correct in your assumptions, and that they will be replaced (just like they were on the prototype)...it's evolution, progress, call it what you like...and it never ceases.

There is also a lot of outstanding modern equipment being made by Lionel, MTH, Atlas and others.  Every catalog is filled with SD70s, ESACs, etc. 

Yes there is...even I have a few pieces, like the AtlasO Dash-8 40B, and the MTH Premier SD60M. The MTH SD60's stellar body tooling,  etched brass walkways with EMD tread, and the etched, see-though grills, screens, and fan covers are superb.

I do agree with just about everything that the wise KeystonedEd has written...to quote Ed, "...its hard to escape the conclusion that modern mainline modelling takes quite a bit more space for the same "effect" than transition era modelling.  Space  most folks don't have for a home layout, and why I believe modern era O scale modelling will remain a minority element within a minority scale."

One area where modern O is slowly starting to expand (not dominating there yet, but is on its way) is in P48 (a minority, within a minority, within a minority!)

P48 has seen a LOT of growth in the last five years; the majority of that growth are the 20-40 somethings that have discovered the "captivation of 1/4" railroading, but relate to a steam locomotives about as easily as they do the 8-track tape. As the transition-era population ages out or passes on, they are being replaced by the modern modeler. 

Ed also insightfully mentioned "modern mainline modelling" but that is not where their interests tend to lie. They want to model modern, but they want to do it in a moderate to small space. They are big-time into shelf and switching layouts, and/or are interested in modeling just a single industry that is fed by off-scene staging, like a paper company, or an outfit that mixes and bottles beverages, like Gatorade or Snapple.  You get a nice variety of equipment in and out, spend a lot of time switching the actual plant, making up and setting out cuts of cars for pickup by the off-scene transfer freight that shows up once or twice a day from staging, etc.

There's a major paradigm shift underway in 2017, when it comes to layout concept, construction, execution, and operation (i.e. Mike Cougill's "The Missing Conversation" series and his own Indiana and Whitewater RR. )

Indiana & Whitewater

These new modelers are interested in branch lines and/or freelancing, and fully embrace the ideal of "less is more", when it comes to the linear feet of track they lay, the number of locomotives they roster, and the length of an average train. But where they take it to extremes is with the level of detail in every aspect of what they build. Tie plates and four spikes per tie on everything, full switch details to include gauge plates and every single rail brace, etc. They might only have a dozen switches total, but they are exact replicas in every way.

(image courtesy OST Publications)

They build full under frames beneath their diesels, even adding details like the flexible electrical cabling to the traction motors. For them it's not about a "grand pike" as much as it  is an "operational, museum quality diorama", with one or more fully fleshed out scenes or industries, connected by a common set of rails (most of it single tracked with cTc, or even dark territory). 

Ed Nadolski's work is another example...here's his version of a seriously tricked out AtlasO cylindrical hopper.

Ed's Walong Loop RR is still in the early stages of construction, but typifies the "modern" shelf style. Here's a YouTube link showing his progress. His low hood GP9 was extensively kit bashed from a Red Caboose body.

Ed's Walong Loop

Matt Forsyth

Forsyth Rail Services

Matt, very interesting post. Thanks all. I maybe out of tune where I live and with what I see.

I'm not in any clubs and mainly watch what's happening on this forum.

When I was young, I struggled with HO steam that I had. I had a very heavy engine with a solid diecast boiler. It derailed if you looked at it. I believe that stays with me as I grow. Most of my current steam runs well. I believe I have a fear of what could happen. Most of my guests prefer to watch a single steam engine chuff and pull a train by itself. I prefer to watch a consist of modern diesels running together working larger trains over the layout.

 As I look around my layout (or table of loops) right now, I see many engines that I bought to satisfy guests. I have another large steamer coming. My girl asked why I needed to order it? I didn't really remember! It's been like 4 years now. About the only new thing coming out of MTH one gauge right then and I fell for it.

 I have many modern pieces and should be satisfied with what I have. For some odd reason, I constantly want to acquire more? I may chase harder after something I want, then enjoying what I already have. So yes....

"won't most anything on the shelves these days work towards that end? 

Bob"

... I should just plop what I have on the rails and be quiet.

Back to my corner now!

PS. I do enjoy the conversation so far.

I enjoyed reading this post.  I dug thru my YouTube videos here is cool 1/2  hour long video of G scale modern trains at LA county fair 2015. Click on link below.

LA county Large scale modern video

My wife and I are selling our home and moving to a retirement community and so I will be changing scales again. I loved the size of O scale and went into it big for me, maybe it was my ability to own a lot in HO and so the buying bug stayed with me..I learned fast to buy what I wanted in O as soon as it was released as it may not come back and if it did the wait was very long for a re release. So now I am parting out my collection to not have to move it when we sell. I'll be going into N scale. Go figure. Big to little. I have over 150 cars and figure i can keep about 40 to display on a wall with a few engines. Another reason I am bailing on the scale is I have waited almost a decade for Atlas to release the 8-40CW. Yes, I like more modern engines. Big power. I have a few BIG UP engines i collected and never run even though they are used DC brass. But **** they look beautiful. Such power. The best I could do was to buy MTH ES44AC and AC4400CW. and to change them to DCC. This DCS is hard for me to play with. The engines were beautiful and I made sure to buy them as the superstructure and cab numbers most likely would not come back. 

So like Engineer-joe I like the modern stuff and feel left out in O. I bought the heck out of tank cars, and Evans and Berwick's thinking they will not be reproduce and need to get the car numbers and paint schemes on earlier runs as they released them since they would not be done again. So Engineer Joe. I am giving up on O for not getting what I waited long time for from Atlas and to downsize to a smaller house.

Phil