Hello, If using the Z4000 to power my TIU. Do I need any additional fuses on the wiring? Thanks.
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Being a belt and suspenders type, I would use fast blown (SFE prefix) fuses between the TIU and track. Usually the Z4K will not allow power to go to the track, but given the cost of circuit boards and repairs, better safe than sorry.
What amp fuse should I use between the TIU and track??
Luke,
If using the Z4000 to power my TIU. Do I need any additional fuses on the wiring?
My tracks are powered by 3 Z4000's into 10 TIU channels. I have been operating this way for 12 years or so without any additional external fuses. I've yet to have any issues at all.
Hello Barry,
So, I do not need any external fuses between the TIU and Track? Correct? I read that 15A fuses should be placed between the TIU and track. So, if a fuse blows, you do not need to open up the TIU to replace the fuse that was blown. Would it not hurt to have an inline fuse holder with a 15A mini fuse between the TIU and track?
Jeff,
So, I do not need any external fuses between the TIU and Track? Correct?
No, that;s not what I said. I told you what I do, not what you should do. That's a personal preference.
I read that 15A fuses should be placed between the TIU and track. So, if a fuse blows, you do not need to open up the TIU to replace the fuse that was blown. Would it not hurt to have an inline fuse holder with a 15A mini fuse between the TIU and track?
I wold not use 15 amp fuses, rather, I'd use 10 amp fuses, since the upper limit on a Z4000's handle is 10 amps.
Well, I think its best to do what you did. Seems like you know your stuff and have vast knowledge of the DCS System. Thanks and I will not be using fuses between the TIU and track.
LJ,
I do not use fuses at all, I use Scott type 10 Amp resettable breakers, between all of my transformers and my TIU's on the Red Channel connected to the Mid Track. Just popped one of those 10 Amp Breakers leading to a Z4K today. In this manner my Transformer is never effected, and neither is my TIU. It maybe over kill to some, but like Barry I have never had any damage done to either my TIU's or any of my Engines. I am not saying Barry is wrong, I am saying I have instituted an additional safe guard. I use the 10 Amp resettable breakers between all my ZW's & KW's and put them in front of all my Z4K's also. I am not telling you, you must do as I do, I am simply tell you what I do, to safe guard my layout. The smallest Transformer I use on my layouts, is an old KW Transformer. On the present Christmas layout I am using 2 Z4k's, one ZW and one KW.
PCRR/Dave
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I have reset-able
breakers between the track and TIU.
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Generally, to assure coordination between fuses (meaning an intent to have a lower rated fuse open in case of a short particularly, while a higher rated fuse is intended to not do so), we would provide the ratio of the two fuses to be not less than 2 to 1. If it was a critical situation, we would want a 3 to 1 ratio, but that will not work out too well for you and this situation isn't that critical.
In this case, the fuse internal to the TIU (if of the later fused designs) is, I believe, a 20-amp automotive fuse of the flattened wire type. This gives it somewhat of a delay greater than the older round wire automotive fuses; you of course will likely be using a round wire fuse externally. That being the case, it is not unreasonable to assume that a 12-amp external fuse might effectively satisfy the 2 to 1 rule of thumb.
If you were designing this for a living, you might want to find and compare the ampere-time curves for the two fuses and make sure the operational bands of the two fuses clear each other for the currents of interest. You'll also see how difficult it is to coordinate fuses in many actual situations (and that the work is a pain in the neck
).
The advantage of using a 12-amp fuse is that there is another rule of thumb-- that you should not use a fuse where the expected current that can constantly be put through it exceeds 80% of its rating. Exceeding this will cause the behavior of the fuse to change over time. Here 10 amps in a 12-amp rated fuse is 83%; generally with American fuses, the UL requirement is that these fuses carry 113% of rating for 4 hours (test is run at 3 hours); so we would not lose sleep over 83 or 85% of rating in service. Of course, if you use metric-dimensioned external fuses, they may be European standard. This is 100% rather than 113% for breakers and I can't recall for fuses.* Then you now have the ISO (International Standards Organization) like sharks in the water.
Another footnote is that the patent document for the Z-4000 implied that at a setting of 15 volts, the two circuits with handle control of voltage could output 12 amps without any electronic intervention by the power-limit feature until 180 watts (reportedly meaning 12 amps at 15 volts as well as 10 amps at 18 volts) was exceeded for 24 seconds, Am I correct in remembering that the two external breakers on the Z-4000 for the track circuits are 12-amp breakers? (Breakers are also subject to the 80% continuous current rule.) Of course, the Z-4000 may only have been similar to its patent.
*My experience with Italian fusing was that with a wall outlet, you took the cover off, to find the fine wire wound between a pair of binding posts burned away; you then took out your own fine wire and looped whatever turns you thought appropriate over the binding posts and put the cover back on (1954). You can't make this stuff up.
I can't recall if this was done live on the ~230v circuit, doubtless using insulated tools... only that I did it.
--Frank
I use the built in circuit breaker in the Lionel Bricks. I have 4 Lionel Bricks, one brick for each main line. My track is always at 18 volt, if there is a short, The Lionel Brick will trip and this cuts the power to the TIU.
Been using this process for about 12 years, No Chaos. - Gary
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Will these circuit breakers be suitable for between the TIU and Track, and also between the Z4000 and TIU? Should I use them in both places or just one place? If so, which location is best? Thanks.
Do you have a link to where I can buy the Scott Type 10 AMP resettable circuit breakers?? Where do you have them placed on your wiring? Just between the Transformer and TIU? Not between the TIU and track? I would only place a breaker on the red or hot wire, correct? There is no need for one on the common, black wire, correct? Thank.
Even though Barry indicates that HE does not use external fuses, I have found on our layout, the minimal investment in automotive "fast blow" 10 Amp fuses on the output of each TIU channel has worked VERY well of us. I blew out one channel of an earlier TIU, and then installed the 10 Amp automotive type fuses, and have blown/popped many a fuse, without any damage to ANYTHING. We have two Z4000s and two Lionel 180 bricks.
I would put the breaker between the transformer and the TIU. In my experience on the farm, if you have two similar breakers on a line, the one closest to the source always trips first. I use 5A resettable breakers on my two loops and can run two engines with smoke on each loop without problems. They trip faster than I can hit the button in a short situation.
Hot Water posted:Even though Barry indicates that HE does not use external fuses, I have found on our layout, the minimal investment in automotive "fast blow" 10 Amp fuses on the output of each TIU channel has worked VERY well of us. I blew out one channel of an earlier TIU, and then installed the 10 Amp automotive type fuses, and have blown/popped many a fuse, without any damage to ANYTHING. We have two Z4000s and two Lionel 180 bricks.
Yep same here... We have 8 postwar ZWs.... 32 volt 10 amp glass type with holder that you can look at to tell if the fuse has blown. (magic bulbs tell as well )
Does anyone know the Radio Shack item # for the recommended fast blow fuse?
Thank you,
Joe
And be sure to use at least 16 gauge wire when using 10 amps on your layout.
ironman1 posted:Does anyone know the Radio Shack item # for the recommended fast blow fuse?
Thank you,
Joe
Sure don't know about Radio Shack but, I purchased automotive type trailer fuse holders, and many packages of replacement automotive 10 Amp fuses, at the nearest auto parts store. I don't know if Radio Shack even carries stuff like that anyway.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do recall early in DCS developement, an article stating which Radio Shack item #'s to use for the fuse holder and fuses. Possibly in Barry's DCS book or MTH website?
Lionel Jeff,
You can still purchase the Scott Type 10 Amp Resettable Breaker Banks that I use thru Train Electrics LLC, they bought Scotts business quite a while back, they use to be a Sponsor on the OGR, however I do not see them listed any more. Phone 231-631-0447 or Neil@trainelectrics.com
PCRR/Dave
And be sure to use at least 16 gauge wire when using 10 amps on your layout
I don't agree. For that amperage, I recommend 14-gauge.
I agree with PCRR/Dave to use breakers. I get mine from Defender Marine. Over the course of time, breakers are cheaper. I use external breakers on all transformers, for redundancy, and, by using smaller breakers, sized to cover maximum expected loads. They blow faster on a derailment. I find 5 amp & 7 amp to be adequate, butr don't use smoke
And be sure to use at least 16 gauge wire when using 10 amps on your layout
That sounds reasonable. I use 16 gauge wire throughout my layout and have bio issues with it whatsoever.
an article stating which Radio Shack item #'s to use for the fuse holder and fuses. Possibly in Barry's DCS book or MTH website?
Such a part number isn't in my book.
Barry, I doubt you get anywhere near 10-amps draw on a single circuit.
RJR posted:Barry, I doubt you get anywhere near 10-amps draw on a single circuit.
You might be surprised. A 15+ car passenger train with older style "non-led" lights, and an A-B-B-A set of both A powered E or F or PA units, will draw about 9 Amps.
Would it hurt to use 12 AWG wiring to wire up the DCS System?? Can I use 20 AWG wiring for switches and accessories connected to the AIU? I just found a spool of 500ft of 12 AWG wire and I have lots of 20 AWG wire. Let me know. Thanks.
#12 awg Will work, some might consider it overkill, but free stuff is better then paying for it. I used #14 on my layout.
Let me know if this is correct wiring for the DCS system...I will be hooking up 2 loops with my DCS System. I have my Z4000 right handle, black and red connected to the Input Fixed In 1's Black and red posts. And then, the Z4000 left handle, black and red connected to the Input fixed In 2's Black and red posts. Output Fixed 1 Black and red connected to loop #1, Black to outer rail and red to middle rail. Output Fixed 2 Black and red connected to loop #2, Black to outer rail and red to middle rail. The AIU Input is connected to the TIU Input on the AIU via the cable provided. Sound right to you guys??? Now, one question...how does the TIU get power?? Do I have to have both Left and Right Handles on full power to give the TIU power? Thanks, Jeff
Okay, thanks. I will use that spool of 500ft of 12 AWG for all my power wiring and DCS System wiring.
Oh yeah...I have 14 AWG as well, about 200FT of it...But, its solid strand. Why can't I use solid strand?? I have read that it is recommended to be stranded. Let me know. Thanks.
Lioneljeff posted:Oh yeah...I have 14 AWG as well, about 200FT of it...But, its solid strand. Why can't I use solid strand?? I have read that it is recommended to be stranded. Let me know. Thanks.
Two reasons why I never liked the solid wire for model train power hook-ups:
1) The stuff was too stiff to work with, in my opinion.
2) The DCS signal REALLY likes stranded wire, in twisted pairs, regardless of wire size. Personally, I wired our whole layout with the OGR twisted-pair AWG 14 wire.
Jeff,
Would it hurt to use 12 AWG wiring to wire up the DCS System?? Can I use 20 AWG wiring for switches and accessories connected to the AIU?
No, as long as it's stranded, not solid wire. However, 12 gauge wire is harder to work with and to solder to track.
Barry, Could you reply to my "Correct wiring for my DCS System" that I posted about 5 posts ago? Thanks, and just want to make sure its right way. And yes, I will be using 12 AWG stranded wiring for the DCS System. And I will use some 16 and 20 AWG wire for switches and accessories hooked up to the AIU. Thanks, Jeff
RJR,
I do believe Joe was trying to say at least 16 and bigger wire, which would include your 14 Gauge, I am with you however and most of my wire for the DCS layout is stranded 14 Gauge wire, it works like a million bucks. Barry has been using the 16 Gauge wire for many years without a problem however. What spurred me on to the 14-12 Gauge stranded wire was trying to get a stronger DCS track signal, back before Marty F had introduced the magic light. The 14-12 Gauge stranded wire did help my layout DCS signal big time back then, and with the Magic light it got even better. I can remember using the light wire and upgrading to the 14&12 to help eliminate the signal problems., especially with the 1st generation TIU. This 14 & 12 Gauge stranded wire then led me to the Gold Banana Plugs I use today, including retro-fitting the ZW & KW Transformers with them. I use these Banana Plugs on the Legacy now also, but with 16 Gauge stranded wire coming from the 990 base, everything works fantastic in this manner. With the advent of the Rev L TIU, Barry probably has a point, the runners now building their 1st DCS/Legacy layout could probably get away with 16 Gauge stranded wire and get a good 10 signal thru out most of their layout. However for me I will use the larger traded wire, I have already invested in it and it works perfectly.
PCRR/Dave
ironman1 posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do recall early in DCS developement, an article stating which Radio Shack item #'s to use for the fuse holder and fuses. Possibly in Barry's DCS book or MTH website?
It's on the MTH website for the in-line or mini fuses and holders from Radio Shack
Then click on ---------------------Revised DCS Wiring Schemes - May 1, 2002
I think the article I was thinking of is from the link below. It does mention a number Radio Shack item #'s but with a quick scan of the article, I don't see mention of the quick blow fuse item number. I have been using that recommended set up for years and had only one problem. A train derailed at a turnout, shorted, blew the fuse than the fuse instantly fused back together then proceeded to short out and destroy my TIU. I believe that was a freak occurrence though.
I've only used the Radio Shack fuses, unfortunately I've run out, which is why I've asked about the part number earlier in the thread.
http://www.toytrains1.com/DCS_Tips.htm
Hot Water, Barry & I know each other's layouts. I have converted most of my passenger cars so I can run 3 trains on the same circuit.
Dave, he said "at least," and based on over 70 years experience with running model trains, unless one is running one train on a small layout, I recommend 14-gauge, for the reasons (among others) that you mention. I recently constructed an 8x4 layout for a grandson, with control panel centered on one side, and used 16-gauge.
I note that in another thread some months ago, Frank Maguire agreed that a DCS signal is composed of electrons. If they are being "squeezed" through an undersized wire along with the motor power, could be strength is diminished.
If one uses a common bus for the common ciruit, I would make it 12-gauge.
I only use stranded.
Jeff, anticipating Barry's answer, the hookup you describe will not work for one reason: the TIU internal circuitry needs power, and if you were to shut down the FIXED 1 input, it would be unpowered and trains would continue to run uncontrollably on FIXED 2. Add a wall wart power supply to the AUX port and you're setup will be fine. The Radio-Shack unit that Barry used to recommend easily power one of my TIUs and 3 attached AIUs, but I do not use ACC AIU circuits that hold the relays on. I would not power the TIU from a Z4000 accessory output, in case that circuit's breaker opens and because then polarity becomes an issue, but I prefer a separate power supply
Thank you Joe Allen! I knew I saw it somewhere.
