Grand Central Station - How Did It Work?

There are only two ways to turn a whole train, a wye or a loop track. In the real world a wye takes much less space, so that's the most common way it's done. 

This is an aerial view of Chicago Union Station. The station itself is at the top, where it says "United States Postal Service." Follow the tracks south and you'll come to the wye where trains are turned. The wye is the "triangle" of track just north of 18th St. Some trains arrive in Chicago and use the wye to turn and back into the station for their arrival.

The wye is also the place where eastbound and westbound trains make their first routing move. All westbound trains turn west at the wye while all eastbound trains go straight through the wye and head east at a point a little further south and out of this picture.

In O scale, you could probably make a wye or loop track fit in essentially the same space.

Bobby;

I can only comment on operations over the last 10 years or so when I was commuting through GC on a regular basis. These days, GC is basically a terminal for commuter trains.

Trains arrive and depart on two levels. The upper level is right off the Great Hall which is where you find the info booth with the famous clock. The "electric trains" can use either the upper or lower level. All trains pulled by diesels only use the upper level. The diesel engine is always on the outbound end of the train. Going into GC, the train is operated from a cab in the first car. There is little preparation on the commuter trains, but anything needed is done right at the platform (e.g. there are railroad employees, separate from the train crew, who always do a break check before departure).

Hope this helps.

Isn't there/was a loop at NYC's GCS?

I think there was a lengthy discussion about GCS here some time back.

Yes, there is an upper level loop, but it is rare to see it used. I've commuted in and out of Grand Central since the early 1980's and still do. Paul is correct in that the "push-pull" diesel electrics have an operating cab at the "rear" end of the train which is used to control the engine going south into Grand Central. The cab in the engine is used going north, out of Grand Central.

Gerry

I thought it was Grand Central Terminal.

TedW posted:

Gotcha HW!  I will DELETE the post...  mea culpa

Nevertheless, it sure is a very impressive track plan, Ted. 

I believe it is the original Union Station in St Louis. It was the busiest in the world.

That is an interesting question I didn't think about, maybe because in my time there it was the MU units MTA runs, and they don't have a head end per se.  With the old electrics they started running when steam was banned in the tunnels, could they be operated from either end, or did the engineer have to operate it from the cab of the electric locomotive? And when they ran steam, did they use the workaround loop to have the engine at the head end (I assume they did)......really neat question. 

MartyE posted:

I thought it was Grand Central Terminal.

Marty;

According to a book issued for the 100th Anniversary of Grand Central, it was originally referred to as a Depot. After expansion around 1900, it became a Station. The current structure called it a Terminal.

It's been a long time.
I thought that the Amtrak diesel trains coming from Albany used to go into Grand Central.
I rode them a number of times, and I do not remember them ever changing direction to back into the station. I thought the locomotives were at the front of the train.
This was in the late 1970's - 1980's.

Wow, now you got me wondering...

Never rode out of GC except once on a subway, even though our hotel was less than 3 blocks from there when we spent a week there in 2015. We rode out of Penn Station every time. The trains were always facing outward with the power at the correct head end when we arrived. We then took the Capitol Limited to Chicago, then the Empire Builder to Seattle, and each time the train was also facing outbound. When the Capitol Limited got into Chicago, though, I'm 95% sure we didn't back into the station there. The Empire Builder stayed on the main until everyone got off, as it went directly to the coach yard after the run.

GC is an amazing place, one of those places you have to visit to appreciate it. My wife and I and some friends must have spend a couple of hours once evening, just looking around the inside of the place.

Here are a couple definitions to consider:

1.  Station vs. Terminal.  A station has a definite in and out paths while a terminal has a shared in/out path/  Trains must be turned or run in reverse.  So it is Grand Central Terminal and Pen Station.

2.  Union.  Union in the name means more railroad company shares the facilities.  Think of Washington Union Station.

Jan

wow, this would make a great terminal for your model railroad, and will be a great focal point for all to view. Keep us posted. 

Found a 1988 article about Amtrak trains being moved from Grand Central Station to Pennsylvania Station.
At the time, the move was projected to occur starting in 1990. A link is below.

Amtrak Trains To Stop Using Grand Central

Here is a shot of the operators control panel, it isn't very good, I snagged it off the net:

That is an old picture above.  

http://www.iridetheharlemline....ions-control-center/  

Although appealing, I'm not sure the proposed "terminal" versus "station" distinction (separate as opposed to shared in/out paths) answers the question: for example, Cincinnati Union Terminal, Cleveland Union Terminal, and Buffalo Central Terminal all have definite in/out paths, rather than shared paths as at Grand Central Terminal. In England, structures that were unequivocally at the end of the line, for example Paddington Station, Charring Cross Station, and Euston Station, all in London, and Temple Meads Station in Bristol, were always called "stations," not terminals, despite the fact that trains terminated at these places and had to go out the same way they went it. 

My big Random House Dictionary of the English Language (2nd ed.) gives the following phrase as one of its definitions of the word terminal "13. a station on the line of a public carrier, as in a city center or at an airport, where passengers embark or disembark and where freight is received or discharged."

I'm not sure why some railroad structures are called terminals and others are called stations, but I don't believe it is simply a matter of how they function. 

And just to complicate things a little more, one history of Kansas City Union Station makes the following statement: "The Kansas City Terminal Railway, a company formed by the twelve railroads serving the city, built the limestone and granite Kansas City Union Station that we see today." This is from a website called The Great American Stations.

At the SP Third and Townsend terminal in San Francisco many of the platforms the three tracks between the platforms. The locomotive would uncouple and escape down the center track. Often that would happen while passengers were still getting off the train.   The locomotives would go to a servicing facility or in steam days a roundhouse. The trains were serviced at the platforms.

I went into St Louis several times by train in pre Amtrak days. As I recall in on the Pennsylvania and out on the IC.  The train backed into the terminal. It was a slow operation and was controlled by the onboard air signal.   Trains were serviced while sitting on the platform track. 

The first station on the site was Grand Central Depot, which became Grand Central Station after an extensive rebuilding of the headhouse in 1899-1900. Grand Central Terminal (1903-1913) was built with balloon tracks on both levels.

Sounds like a great project.  Grand Central is one of my favorite places to visit while in NY.  On one of my trips, I purchased a book "Grand Central Terminal" by Kurt Schlichting.  It covers the early history including construction, including how they sold the air rights over the train yard, right down Park Avenue.  Amazon still has a few copies for sale.  It has a number of B&W pictures and found it a great read.  

I think LA Union has a third track between the two next to the platforms so that locomotives can escape.  

And speaking of LA:  Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal!

A couple of things. The Amtrak trains from Albany are once again going into Grand Central because of the work being done on the rails in Penn Station.

I hadn't thought about it, but there is a "wye" in the south Bronx where the Hudson line and the New Haven and Harlem lines join each other. There was a switching terminal there called "Big Mo" which is now boarded up. This is probably about a half mile south of the Yankee Stadium stop.

And of course we have our "big dig" which is the addition of another yet lower level to Grand Central (Eastside Access) which will bring LIRR trains to Grand Central. http://www.timesledger.com/sto...er_2017_04_07_q.html. Given the costs, it might be less expensive to just let everyone take a taxi.

Gerry

Broad Street Station and Reading Terminal in Philadelphia were both stub-end stations.  From what I've read, they both had wyes to turn steam engines.  Depending on equipment needs, they might either wye an entire train (for example, something like the Broadway Limited or Crusader); have a hostler engine pull the train free, have the engine use an escape track and then wye the engine; or simply back an engine up to the consist, pull it away for a scheduled trip and then wye the freed engine for a following trip.

By the time I was born,  Broad Street Station had given way to 30th Street Station (through trains) and Suburban Station (stub end double end MU trains).  Reading Terminal had mostly MU trains and RDCs, with occasional push-pull service using FP7s.  

Nowadays, SEPTA has pass-through MU service, with the Market East (now Jefferson) station replacing Reading Terminal in 1984. 

Incidentally, I had the last ticket for the last ride out of Reading Terminal...

Mitch

Quote:   "Depending on equipment needs, they might either wye an entire train (for example, something like the Broadway Limited or Crusader)"

FWIW, I don't believe the Broadway Limited ever stopped at Broad Street Station or even 30th Street.  Like most PRR East-West trains, its only stop in Philadelphia was at North Philadelphia Station and then it took the "New York-Chicago Subway" at Zoo Junction and headed out the main line.  IIRC, the first stop after North Philadelphia was Paoli.  

Getting the New York to Harrisburg/Pittsburgh.Chicago trains to stop and reverse direction at 30th Street was introduced by Amtrak.  (Broad Street Station closed in 1952, almost 20 years before Amtrak.)

But you make a good point and the two buildings were just a few blocks apart. 

If you'd like to see what the old GCT control board looks like now, here it is!

Just choose GCT Display Board from the Presets under Internet Explorer or scroll up and left under other browers.

GCT Control Board (For Internet Explorer)

GCT Control Board (for non-IE browsers)

PGentieu posted:

Quote:   "Depending on equipment needs, they might either wye an entire train (for example, something like the Broadway Limited or Crusader)"

FWIW, I don't believe the Broadway Limited ever stopped at Broad Street Station or even 30th Street.  Like most PRR East-West trains, its only stop in Philadelphia was at North Philadelphia Station and then it took the "New York-Chicago Subway" at Zoo Junction and headed out the main line.  IIRC, the first stop after North Philadelphia was Paoli.  

Right.  I was actually thinking NEC trains between DC and NYC pre-30th St.  In those days, North Phila. and West Phila. were the main stops on the line for through trains, but a fair number pulled into Broad Street proper, wyeing out in one way or the other. 

Getting the New York to Harrisburg/Pittsburgh.Chicago trains to stop and reverse direction at 30th Street was introduced by Amtrak.  (Broad Street Station closed in 1952, almost 20 years before Amtrak.)

Yeah, by the time Amtrak came along,  North Phila. station was a pit, and has improved only in recent years.

But you make a good point and the two buildings were just a few blocks apart. 

Yus!  ;-)

Express or intercity trains would "loop" on the upper or "Express Level" and head north 5 miles to the Mott Haven (MO) coach yard to be serviced.  I read somewhere that Mott Haven was the largest of it's type...

Here's a link to a good account of passenger trains operations at Mott Haven.  http://www.iridetheharlemline....-at-mott-haven-yard/

If you pull up Mott Haven, New York in a map search and display it at an oblique angle (3D), you can get a really good idea of the relationship of Mott Haven Yard and GCT, and the approaches from the Hudson River.

I just found this picture online. It says that it was the first Amtrak scheduled revenue service train in 26 years to use GCT. It looks like it has an engine on each end which would solve the problem about turning the engine...

At NY Penn, the incoming trains from the west would just pull through the East River tunnels to the Sunnyside yard in Queens. Harold interlocking marked the end of AC power. Trains coming in from Long Island would pull through to the West Side Yard. Not sure where the NJ commuter trains went for servicing. 

Gerard M. Delaney posted:

. Not sure where the NJ commuter trains went for servicing. 

Sunnyside. Most any recent photo shows both Amtrak and NJT equipment comingled in the facility.

---PCJ 

NY Penn is a pass through station. East bound trains head to Sunnyside Yards. Amtrak and NJT park there. The LIRR heads west under the new Hudson Yards development. Since all three run electric there is no need to turn trains. Sunnyside has a loop around the perimeter of the yard for reversing trains if necessary.

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/licity/licity.htm

Like Bobby, I have wondered how passenger trains were handled at Grand Central back in the day of steam and electric. I am not sure the question has been answered. Were trains turned before passengers departed or after the train was cleared of passengers and baggage and were they turned on the terminal loop or Mott Haven wye?

Pete

First, all steam power was swapped to electric at Harmon (Hudson Line) or North White Plains (Harlem Line).

Intercity trains would (at least by deign) arrive on the "Express" Level" (upper level) tracks on the west side, which had access to the "loop track".  They would unload passengers and baggage, then proceed around the loop, then head northbound to the Mott Haven Coach yard for servicing.  Outbound trains were made up in Mott Haven, and pulled or shoved into GCT and spotted on the upper level platforms for departure.  There were extensive baggage handling facilties in GCT with dozens of elevators serving the platforms, and the baggage handling facilities in a combined office building where the MetLife (Pan Am) building now is.

The "Suburban Level" (lower level) was designed for suburban trains which were mostly MU (multiple unit) electric equipment that did not need to be turned; although there were loop tracks on the lower level as well.

There were several storage yards in GCT as well - The East yard, Waldorf Yard, and Madison Yard.

Also, to clarify someone's statement above, today, the upper level loop track is used daily by dozens of trains.

-Jim

Thanks Jim. That pretty much explains it. 

The word steam was used just to reference the era. Most of named trains back then had proper observation cars. The responses so far seemed to talk about Amtrak and modern era.

Pete

I also remember that the NYC name train did not turn the sleepers. They wanted the bed room windows facing the Hudson River for the view.

Grand Central Station / Terminal is a marvelous structure .  Ives modeled the station for their showroom layout in 1929  and did a stylized drawing of it on their 1930 cover.    I thought what better way to have a Ives layout than to include a modified version  of the showroom layout with the Grand Central station .   Ives stylized catalog cover added a train shed  which was on the original Grand Central station ...but not on the terminal ( due to submerging the trains below grade) .  The layout is still very much a work in progress ..but here is a few photos .

Cheers Carey