Green Pullmans by Madison Hardware from 1960s

I've never heard of these. I'd love to see a picture of them.

I have also never heard of them.  I would guess they were painted Madison cars.  I have spent many days at Madison and never got to see them.

Google has information of those cars being CP aluminum cars painted green.  I would want that set.

I have seen a couple of these over the years. I believe they were lettered Pennsylvania.

In for pictures if they turn up.

I've seen them mentioned on chat boards before.
Never seen any supporting documentation in print. That includes browsing old magazines, including Madison Hardware ads.
Having been in the store in NYC many times from the 1970's until their closing, I don't recall seeing any custom painted passenger cars in the store either.
They did have a number of custom painted diesel shells, and their tank cars are well known.
If anybody does have documentation and/or pictures, I'd enjoy seeing that sort of stuff.

I remember them advertised in the Madison Hardware ads in Model Railroader in the early 70's. But have no documented proof. I wonder if member Notch6 would have anything in his Madison Hardware archive.

I am not aware of anything that exists in green. That doesn't mean that it doesn't! That being said the MH variation that is well known in the regular brown Madison cars with yellow Pennsylvania lettering. Here is a photo from Stout Auctions of a set of these cars. I do have a photo that will be printed in the book with one of these cars. Fun photo and one of the more interesting items to come out of Madison Hardware. 

On second thought Stout did offer this set of green unlettered cars about 5 years ago. Not sure if these were Madison Hardware production though. I can absolutely back up the yellow lettered Pennsylvania though. 

While those are nice, not what's being discussed here. Madison Hardware was known for selling some "custom" items, and that's what the OP is looking to find info about.

I think Galy might be suggesting that the Green cars may have been Williams cars, even if they were sold by Madison. IMHO, there is an awful lot of stuff that gets attributed to Madison Hardware that did not come from them.

I have seen one or two erroneous Stout listings. No one source is infallible.

Thanks for your response. I know the cars were not Williams. This was in the mid to late sixties. Maybe they were the Tuscan cars with Pennsylvania written on them. If some one has back issues of model Railroader they can look up the ad for them.

Here's part of a mid-60s Madison Hardware magazine ad with the Pennsylvania cars listed under their 2600 series numbers. I can't ever recall an ad specifying the color as green for cars in this series.

Jim

Thanks Jim!

I enjoy learning about these sort of things.

Jim,

I really appreciate your posting that ad. Another fascinating piece of Madison Hardware history

Some years ago I was offered a set of green Madison cars that the owner said were authentic Lionel cars from Madison Hardware.  All I needed to do to get a good price was write them up in Collector's Gallery. I took a pass.

Ed Boyle

Partner

Special Projects Editor

O Gauge Railroading magazine

several years ago,,,the other toy train mag ,ran an article on the green Madison cars ,if that's any help

I'm sure there not Williams. Even Madison wouldn't charge $26.95 for them. Madison did a lot of repaints through the years. Many F-unit and who knows that else. There's a good story for you to write ED. Don

I like looking back on the MH ads. It's interesting that they often kept the same items in their ads for many many years. It says something about the numbers of those items they must have had in stock.

More interestingly, the prices on those items mirrored the collector market that was building from the late 60s into the early 80s. Prices (and collector interest) started low in the early 60s, and then rose dramatically when the handwriting was on the wall for the old Lionel Corp in the late 60s, and finally skyrocketed as the "postwar collector age" began in earnest.

For example, here's how the Virginian FM Trainmaster fared over the years in Madison Hardware ads. There was never any mention of variations in the ads back in those days.

1958 - $33

1966 - $50

1969 - $87

1972 - $130

1974 - $259

1975 - $279

1977 - $399 (and then disappeared from the ads in late '77)

Lots of history in those ads (and in that old building!)

Jim

For comparison purposes in my area, around 1974, one could get an excellent 2056 with the correct tender, and no box for around $25 at a swap meet.

Terry, do you remember the year and month I have all of those magazine issues. I got rid of my MR that had the ad. I use to keep MR that had special ads. Then I discovered Toy Trains and Electric Trains magazines from the 1950s. Now you can get that stuff digitally. I have a full set of Model Builder if anyone is interested. They range from poor to very good

Yes they did have sets lettered up in green. 

History on them is sketchy though. Had a set about 30 years ago.

I think I have seen them but that's just a definite maybe, perhaps, might have. MH as we all know did a lot of in house redos. I liked seeing the old ad though. I remember that for years they sold a scale tender for the 773.

One might get additional information regarding the green passenger cars from Len Carparelli.  He did painting for MH and possibly would know their history.

quote:

One might get additional information regarding the green passenger cars from Len Carparelli.  He did painting for MH and possibly would know their history.

When did he start painting for Madison?

I will try to plow thru them this weekend !

Will have to dig out some of the Greenberg Books, thinking maybe the Volume 5 Rare & Unusual book may possibly have some info.

Wouldn't you think that after two days of this post that someone from the TCA, the National Toy Train Museum or the Lionel Collectors Club of America would have piped up and provided more information about these grreen Madison cars with a Pennsylvania logo?

How about the Stout or Ambrose Bauer or NETTE auction houses.  You mean nobody no where has photos or more information about them?

Sure seems strange.  Maybe noneof those guys read this forum.

And what about all those Lionel price guide books?  Nothing!

Also, if Madison Hardware did use the Madison cars, how did they remove the raised lettering of "Lionel Lines" and replace it with raised lettering that said "Pennsylvania".   THAT must have been a trick since the raised letttering was part of the mold, wasn't it? 

Yeah, they could have sanded the raised letters down, but I don't think these two old guys would have gone tothe trouble to do something like that, do you?

These green Pennsylvania Railroad Madison cars sold by Madison Hardware reminds of the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine.  Almost everyone believes it exists, but nobody can find it. The same with these cars.

When I seem 'em I'll believe it.

quote:

Wouldn't you think that after two days of this post that someone from the TCA, the National Toy Train Museum or the Lionel Collectors Club of America would have piped up and provided more information about these grreen Madison cars with a Pennsylvania logo?

Charlie from Nassau Hobby posted that they exist. IMHO, he is a pretty good source, and I am certain he belongs to the TCA.

Jim posted an old Madison Hardware ad, which confirms that they sold them. It doesn't tell us the color, or how they got them.

Madison Hardware was a big customer, with a special relationship with Lionel.

Did they have Lionel make them?  (Carl once told me that they had a custom run of 6572 REA reefers done for them)

Did they purchase unpainted bodies and make them up themselves?

It certainly would be interesting to know.
Maybe the Project Roars publishing folks have some information.

I believe they have been discussed before on this forum. Maybe a search with the correct key words would turn up more information. 

For thousands of years EVERYBODY believed the world was flat.  Absolutely no question about it.

Finally, somebody provided substantiated proof that the world is round.

When I see substantiated proof that there are Lionel 2625, 2627 and 2628 green, raised letter in the mold Pennsylvania Madison cars I'll believe it.

Otherwise, it's all a big myth!   Like the 1950's black GG1 that was really an extremely very dark shade of Brunswick green.

Show me the photos!

Hey, I know.  Why doesn't OGR Magazine offer a couple hundred bucks to anyone who owns these cars and gives OGR the exclusive rights to photograph and publish an article about them in an upcoming maganzine issue?  That would be real cool!

Do you think there'll be any takers?  I doubt it!

Hey, I have a set of green cars. Now let me find my air gun and some dark green paint. I'll have it in no time. Don

Fascinating thread....would love to see them!

Peter

quote:

When I see substantiated proof that there are Lionel 2625, 2627 and 2628 green, raised letter in the mold Pennsylvania Madison cars I'll believe it.

The old Madison Hardware ad that was posted by Jim confirms that cars were offered by them. It doesn't indicate the color or who decorated them.

Niced try Scale Rail. 

BUT just tell me how your gonna erase the raised letter "Lionel Lines" from the car and replace them with the raised letters "Pennsylvania"?

Cool job if you can do it.  I'll be looking for your post WITH photos!

Hey, I wasn't the posting person who said they were green. 

I'll settle for substantial proof and authentic photos of Lionel 2625, 2627 and 2728 raised letter Madison cars with raised letter numbers and Pennsylvania no matter what color they are.  Green. Red. Brunswick. Tuscan or even Pink.

I just wanna see them with photos.

So far, the entire world of Lionel collectors can't produce one ounce of proof that they exist.

I think its a myth until there's actual proof.

Come on OGR magagizine, pony up a few bucks to prove that these Madison Hardware one-offs actually exist.  You'll get exclusive rights to photograph them and have a blockbuster issue describing their history and all about them.

Seems like a win-win thing for model train collectores to me!

First, The lettering was heat stamped, so there would be an indent, not raised.

 Second, They would be made of excess bare shells, no paint and no lettering. Carl and Lou would have them put together from their vast excess of overrun of parts. Someone would have painted the bare shells and rubber stamped Pennsylvania on them.

 See Notch 6 post for actual pictures of the Tuscan versions.

 See the Madison ad for verification they were offered.

OK, so they were heat stamped.  Big deal. 

If these cars were advertised and sold over a 20 year period... where are they?

I and many other Lionel fans would like to see them.  I've never heard or seen these on display at train meets, at major auctions, on eBay or any articles about them in the TCA, LCCA, Train Museum, OGR Magazine, Classic Toy Trains or anything else.

So, IF they exist, where are they? 

Just asking.  I'd love to see em.

Personally, with all these unsubstantiated rumors of these green/tuscan Madison cars with a Pennsylvania logo, wouldn't it be neat if Lionel actually came out with this kind of passenger set.  I think the Tuscan color, since it was the original, would be a fantastic sell out.  Just like the black GG1 that Lionel came out with in the 1990's.

I'd buy a set to run with my 773. Cool!