Has anyone received their new Lionel BTO 0-8-0s?

 Had mine for more than a week. Nothing has really changed since the first run of these years ago as far as details. Lionel did a good job on this one the first time. The biggest improvement is the wire tether. No longer does the engine sit a grand canyon away from the tender. Coupled closer and can easily be brought in more. The sounds seem much more robust than even my previous Legacy version. I run Boston & Albany steam. I opted for the Wabash version. It will be relettered and renumbered into B&A 52. It will also get a center mount headlight.

 Mine has a running issue. Seems to run way to fast. Only has about 10 usable steps for yard work. Cruise works fine. Just a drastic change in speed from one step to the next. I have a Legacy switcher to compare it to. Night and day difference. In fact I'd rather run my older Odyssey version. I'm sure Lionel will take care of it. I was hoping to get some feedback on the Forum as to how others ran. One odd note. When I added the Legacy module to the remote. Didn't catch it at first. Decided to run it with my I Pad. It came up on the Roster with a caption American Flyer Pullmor. Thought that was odd and checked the info in the remote. Same thing. Cleared the remote and re added the info manually and set it as a Steam Switcher. Thought this may fix it. But it still runs the same. Was hoping to use this one in pusher service. Legacy should adjust the speed steps to keep up with a road engine. It already outruns all of them. I'll be calling Lionel.

This photo shows the new tether. The coupling could still be closer but it's much better than the wireless tether. The added bonus is your rollers and all your wheels are now connected. You will have a hard time stalling this one.

Does anyone have any videos to post?

It's my understanding that Lionel's Steel City Switcher set with a Bethlehem Steel 0-8-0 switcher has hit some dealer shelves.  I had thought about getting the set, but wasn't gonna pay $1,100 for it.  So perhaps we'll be seeing a photo or video of this soon by either a dealer promoting the product, or by someone who wasn't put off by the steep price.

David

Someone else posted their having the same issue with a N&W class A. Says its running like a jet and remote says AF/Pullmore.. might be a new issue poping up.

We also have break up on the Steel City sets

Jon Z from Lionel explained why there is a speed difference on the Lionmaster Class A. It has to do with space considerations and using a BEMF setup vs an encoder. So the setting and operation is correct. Just doesn't match a Legacy engine using an encoder. 

This most likely explains the speed difference on the 0-8-0 as well since it requires the FLYER / Pullmor as well. 

MartyE posted:

Jon Z from Lionel explained why there is a speed difference on the Lionmaster Class A. It has to do with space considerations and using a BEMF setup vs an encoder. So the setting and operation is correct. Just doesn't match a Legacy engine using an encoder. 

This most likely explains the speed difference on the 0-8-0 as well since it requires the FLYER / Pullmor as well. 

Thanks MArty,

You are correct the 0-8-0 has BEMF, just like the LM Class A

.....but there was no "space for electronics" issue with the previous legacy 0-8-0's...

What's the point of a switcher with poor low speed perfoemance?

Sounds more like a cost cutting move.Areal shame considering these 0-8-0 prices are so inflated.

What is this? lion chief electronics in a so called legacy loco?

 Jon, first thank you for jumping into this but is there a way by number codeing or something that we can tell if a loco has this type of board in it. I mean will this be the norm on all small switcher engines? If it's doesn't work well for low speeds than that's an issue.

This BEMF is beginning to sound like a dumb idea...but then it sounds like BEMF or nothing. So it should work for some but not for most probably.

I was thinking about an 0 8 0...my old one is looking good to me now.

I don't like this new approach by Lionel.

Since this is not an improvement - possibly a cost cutting measure................

Factor in the way it was introduced to the marketplace certainly  leaves a person suspicious.

And as mentioned earlier........how do we know which engines will have the new system.

I'm on hold for any new purchases until this becomes much more clear.

Dave

Low blow by Lionel in my opinion.   Glad I didn't get a new one over my RS 5.0 version from a few years back.   Lionel better not do that to the mogals coming out next year. Another small engine with limited space.

Crap, I got the GTW, but haven't run it yet. I also have an order in for the GT Mogul. Lionel should not market the locomotive as Legacy if it doesn't perform as a Legacy.

This sucks I want a switch to run super slow. The new NW2 better not be like this. 

Whoah, folks.... this reported slow-speed performance issue can be a real show-stopper for a "switcher" locomotive.  When I hear Legacy "switcher", I'm expecting SUPERB slow-speed performance.  Actually, if I hear Legacy "anything", that's what I'm expecting.  Anything less, and it's NO SALE.    Why on earth would I even consider paying premium $$$ for this product, if it doesn't have silky smooth slow-speed performance?  

Sounds like another hurdle for Lionel to overcome, if they want to be successful in the BTO space. 

David

So, does not perform as described here?

Charlienassau posted:

We also have break up on the Steel City sets

But Charlie, you're taking a page out of Lionel's pricing strategies... you have the loco at $900 and the caboose at $130.  Even if we wait for a 15% sale, that's $765 for a switcher loco that may not perform well at slow-speed. 

We only paid $560-ish a year ago when the 0-6-0 B6's were delivered.  Are the extra pair of drive wheels really worth $340???    I'm clearly missing something. 

David

Rocky, the Steel City engine is priced at msrp. for 0-8-0's. It is a BTO item and broken up out of a set. 

Charlienassau posted:

Rocky, the Steel City engine is priced at msrp. for 0-8-0's. It is a BTO item and broken up out of a set. 

I hear ya, Charlie.  And thanks for even offering set break-ups.  I'm sure folks appreciate that option from time to time. I was just sending you a friendly reality-check on prices. 

Here's another...  I have a brand-spanking-new N&W #612J on my forum for-sale listing that's been out there for several months now.  I lowered the price to $700 for York/Allentown shows, and there have been a few tire-kickers, but it's still hasn't sold.  So if I can't sell one of the venerable Legacy "J" steamers for $700, does Lionel REALLY think anybody's gonna pay $900 MSRP for an 0-8-0 switcher?  THAT's where the disconnect resides in Lionel's new pricing.  Just sayin'....

OK... now returning back to our regularly scheduled programming for this thread.

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Whoah, folks.... this reported slow-speed performance issue can be a real show-stopper for a "switcher" locomotive.  When I hear Legacy "switcher", I'm expecting SUPERB slow-speed performance.  Actually, if I hear Legacy "anything", that's what I'm expecting.  Anything less, and it's NO SALE.    Why on earth would I even consider paying premium $$$ for this product, if it doesn't have silky smooth slow-speed performance?  

Sounds like another hurdle for Lionel to overcome, if they want to be successful in the BTO space. 

David

Is it worth getting my antique American Flyer engine 565 repaired at a Lionel hardware store please respond I may be reached at 1-618-205-8413.

Soo Line posted:

I don't like this new approach by Lionel.

Since this is not an improvement - possibly a cost cutting measure................

Factor in the way it was introduced to the marketplace certainly  leaves a person suspicious.

And as mentioned earlier........how do we know which engines will have the new system.

I'm on hold for any new purchases until this becomes much more clear.

Dave

 

 

 

This new approach by Lionel is good for Lionel....and bad for just about everyone else involved, most notably the end user/consumer.

However, this is absolutely consistent with Lionel's insane pricing policy over the past two years or so.

Funny how so many previously issued products have more appeal than the current ones....which frequently aren't as nice but are WAY more expensive.

JC642 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Whoah, folks.... this reported slow-speed performance issue can be a real show-stopper for a "switcher" locomotive.  When I hear Legacy "switcher", I'm expecting SUPERB slow-speed performance.  Actually, if I hear Legacy "anything", that's what I'm expecting.  Anything less, and it's NO SALE.    Why on earth would I even consider paying premium $$$ for this product, if it doesn't have silky smooth slow-speed performance?  

Sounds like another hurdle for Lionel to overcome, if they want to be successful in the BTO space. 

David

 

For reference, my as delivered Lionel TMCC 4 chuff 0-8-0 switcher with RS-5 and "NO" ugly wired tether from 2004 sounds great, runs slower then slow, smokes great and it cost under $450 when new ....  Sometimes when things work good its best to just leave it alone.

Joe

 

I have the same engine in B&A.  I had to ad a teather as the engine would stall on switches, and the drawbar gap was ridiculous.

With that said, I had Dave_C weather it and I installed a shorter drawbar, but back to topic,

I tried the N & W Class A and it goes really slow if you just turn the dial less than an imperceptible fraction of a degree...BUT then if you turn the dial another imperceptible fraction of a degree, it takes off way too fast. It's mostly a compressed speed range issue. Up at about half way on the display as to speed, it is as fast as one would want to run it. It is Legacy in all other regards...just speed differences from the encoder type motor engines.

It seems like to me that this could be dealt with in the electronics.

Wow... At this rate, between premium-priced locomotives with poor slow-speed performance, and PS-1 sound cars with loud clunky noises that drown out the more desirable wheel-scraping sounds, Lionel just saved me a bunch of $$$$.  

David

Charlienassau posted:

Rocky, the Steel City engine is priced at msrp. for 0-8-0's. It is a BTO item and broken up out of a set. 

Hi Charlie, one question for you. I saw your set break up on the Steel City on your site. Did Lionel change the names on a couple of the cars? You have the Patapsco & Back Rivers RR as being the flat car, in the catalog it is shown & described as a gondola with a steel beam?

I just got my set today I only opened the shipping box but I left it sealed. I really have no room or desire to open up the trains I just got, we now have my wife's parents living here and he is in hospice. My dad and some uncles worked for Patapsco & Back Rivers RR (Push, Batter & Ram RR, as it was known here in Sparrows Point, MD). That is the reason I purchased the set. And with the steel mill gone the only sign of the RR is a few hundred empty tank cars sitting on the tracks. They are charging $35 a day per car to sit there.

But I would still like to know is the catalog correct or not. Many Thanks, Paul

Paul, when I looked on Charlie's website, it appears the Steel City break-up cars are labeled correctly per the catalog, albeit at super premium prices (i.e., $130/each).    What's difficult to determine based on the angle of the photos, however, is the load for each gondola.  Hopefully, Lionel delivered what they cataloged.

David

 I had a chance today to run my engine a little today. I basically will use it as a yard switcher doing industries. I have Kadee's on everything and in order to use the magnets for delayed coupling slow speed is a must. 

 First thing I did was set the Speed a Limit at 7. Yes there are 193 steps doing nothing. I set the Momentum on light. This way you can feel the remote click and see the engine respond. You need this type of response when backing into an industry or uncoupling magnet. I find myself looking more at the remote. Never had to with my Odyssey or earlier Legacy 0-8-0. You will only use probably the first 2 steps in yard work shuttling cars. I found it best to bring the consist to a stop using the brake on the direction button right before reaching the magnet. I have the RR Speed screen on. I then simply press roll and I can get the Kadee's to engage in delay mode. I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me. But the Roll feature seems slower than Step 1 on the remote.

 I didn't have as much luck with Cab 1 or the Legacy Lite. With the free spinning wheel you will be trying to slow and next thing you will come to a stop. Remember you are only working with probably 2 speed steps. I'm almost thinking of thinking of linking my DCS to my Legacy base just to use the DCS remote. At least it clicks one step at a time and displays the number.

 Really disappointed in this offering. Customer Service sort of gave me the runaround with engine resets and wanting me to see how the engine performed conventionally. When they probably knew what the real problem was. My guess is they have to order so many motors and such from suppliers. Probably a minimum order and only so many Flyer locos to put them in. They had to find something else to put them in. The space factor is a pretty lame excuse. The previous Legacy 0-8-0's were great slow speed switchers. All they needed was the new tether to eliminate any stalling. Good business practice but that doesn't do much for me. The operator. 

Good business practice is keeping the customer happy.  Sorry to say no Mike Reagan to make it right.  Will Lionel step up and try to correct this?

Dave

I don't normally challenge what someone has done, but because I forked out some $700 for this I want to be sure that you haven't overlooked something. You said that you entered the locomotive info manually. Would you like to explain what you entered? In particular the speed steps; TMCC, 100 steps or Legacy. If this locomotive is really as bad as you say, then I want to send it back. Also, a general question to all, why would the orange memory chip come up as AF pulmor? That makes no sense at all. The orange memory module for the one and only Legacy engine that I bought last year correctly  stated the locomotive.

superwarp1 posted:

Good business practice is keeping the customer happy.  Sorry to say no Mike Reagan to make it right.  Will Lionel step up and try to correct this?

Let's hope. 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Paul, when I looked on Charlie's website, it appears the Steel City break-up cars are labeled correctly per the catalog, albeit at super premium prices (i.e., $130/each).    What's difficult to determine based on the angle of the photos, however, is the load for each gondola.  Hopefully, Lionel delivered what they cataloged.

David

David, They still have the P&PR labeled wrong, they are showing it as the flat car which is wrong. The  6-83524 is the PB&NE flat car with the slag blow. I used their listing # and found one on e-bay for $150, and I can clearly see the PB&NE markings on it. So the P&BR car that is shown in the catalog is correct.

Now if they only made P&BR engine, I ordered a new NW-2 6-83389 PB&NE which was the exact color scheme and markings as to how the P&BR were on their engines.

Trainlover9943 posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Good business practice is keeping the customer happy.  Sorry to say no Mike Reagan to make it right.  Will Lionel step up and try to correct this?

Let's hope. 

Fat chance of that I'll bet.  Jon Z already stated this is a different type of speed control than the Legacy we're used to, and the change was done on purpose. This is the Flyer/Pulmor designation.

Jon Z also stated the change was due to space limitations. IMO this is a questionable excuse considering 0-8-0's have already been offered with the "regular" legacy speed control and most recently the 0-6-0, doesn't get much smaller than that.

One of the great characteristics of legacy was being able to "lashup" any type of loco to another and have matched speed in adition to the lowest starting speed in the hobby.

So now we have Legacy locos with speed control thats not even as good as the old TMCC stuff, whats the point??

How ironic Mike Reagan recently resigned.

It makes even a die hard Lionel fan start to seriously consider what MTH has to offer, at least you know what your getting.

 Keith, After loading the module. The engine came up AF Pullmor, Legacy Control, Legacy Railsounds. Figured the AF Pullmor was the problem. Went back into the settings and manually changed it to a Steam Switcher. It still ran the same. When I run my road engines many times I just use the Speed mode. The first arrow is suppose to be about 5 mph. It's more like 30 with this one. Had a Lionel tech check it out with the same results.

 The engine is runnable. Just not what it should be. Legacy switchers are suppose to be able to be used as helpers with rd. engines. That's the reason they are designated Steam Switcher in the remote. When used with a Steam Rd. engine it speeds up the switcher so that they don't fight with one another. It's already going way to fast. It also doesn't follow the standard Legacy RR speeds. It has the features of a Legacy engine. Just not the fine speed control. 

 I've been hoping someone else would chime in here. I was hoping at first the problem was isolated to my engine. But after reading the posts on the N&W Class A and Jon Z's comments I guess they will all have this issue. If you are a simple loop runner you might be fine with it. As far as a switcher. Not so good. As far as the cruise being like the ERR ones with no encoder. I recently installed one in a Weaver Brass 0-6-0. Runs really well. I believe the type of cruise they used isn't the issue. It should have been geared better.

I have plenty of engines to run. It's still upsetting to spend this much money on what you thought would be the ultimate switcher. The Pennsy B6 was one of the best running engines I have ever seen or run. This should have been the same with one more axle.  Then find out your old Odyssey from 12 years ago outperforms it.

paulp posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Paul, when I looked on Charlie's website, it appears the Steel City break-up cars are labeled correctly per the catalog, albeit at super premium prices (i.e., $130/each).    What's difficult to determine based on the angle of the photos, however, is the load for each gondola.  Hopefully, Lionel delivered what they cataloged.

David

David, They still have the P&PR labeled wrong, they are showing it as the flat car which is wrong. The  6-83524 is the PB&NE flat car with the slag blow. I used their listing # and found one on e-bay for $150, and I can clearly see the PB&NE markings on it. So the P&BR car that is shown in the catalog is correct.

Now if they only made P&BR engine, I ordered a new NW-2 6-83389 PB&NE which was the exact color scheme and markings as to how the P&BR were on their engines.

Paul, my bad.  You are correct.  The website has flip/flopped the flat-car and one of the gondolas.  Looks like Charlie also has his Steel City break-ups as buy-it-now on eBay too.  Same prices as the store's website.

David

Dave_C posted:

 Keith, After loading the module. The engine came up AF Pullmor, Legacy Control, Legacy Railsounds. Figured the AF Pullmor was the problem. Went back into the settings and manually changed it to a Steam Switcher. It still ran the same. When I run my road engines many times I just use the Speed mode. The first arrow is suppose to be about 5 mph. It's more like 30 with this one. Had a Lionel tech check it out with the same results.

 The engine is runnable. Just not what it should be. Legacy switchers are suppose to be able to be used as helpers with rd. engines. That's the reason they are designated Steam Switcher in the remote. When used with a Steam Rd. engine it speeds up the switcher so that they don't fight with one another. It's already going way to fast. It also doesn't follow the standard Legacy RR speeds. It has the features of a Legacy engine. Just not the fine speed control. 

 I've been hoping someone else would chime in here. I was hoping at first the problem was isolated to my engine. But after reading the posts on the N&W Class A and Jon Z's comments I guess they will all have this issue. If you are a simple loop runner you might be fine with it. As far as a switcher. Not so good. As far as the cruise being like the ERR ones with no encoder. I recently installed one in a Weaver Brass 0-6-0. Runs really well. I believe the type of cruise they used isn't the issue. It should have been geared better.

I have plenty of engines to run. It's still upsetting to spend this much money on what you thought would be the ultimate switcher. The Pennsy B6 was one of the best running engines I have ever seen or run. This should have been the same with one more axle.  Then find out your old Odyssey from 12 years ago outperforms it.

 

"As far as the cruise being like the ERR ones with no encoder. I recently installed one in a Weaver Brass 0-6-0. Runs really well. I believe the type of cruise they used isn't the issue. It should have been geared better."

The gear ratio could have been better, you are correct. I probably could have adjusted the servo loop for this loco to run slower as well. I am sorry that I did not do better on the software on this loco.  My bad.

There really was no room for the RCMC legacy boards, and previous runs of the 0-8-0 locos used a modular board arrangement so we could use the normal legacy encoder on those. Obsolete parts caused our dilemma, and we had to use a different board set with BEMF. 

SantaFeFan posted:

...

There really was no room for the RCMC legacy boards, and previous runs of the 0-8-0 locos used a modular board arrangement so we could use the normal legacy encoder on those. Obsolete parts caused our dilemma, and we had to use a different board set with BEMF. 

Jon,

Sounds like you were a victim of the ever-present technology treadmill lurking around an unknown corner, and it doesn't always work in our favor. 

Appreciate your candid input here, Jon.

David

 Jon, I appreciate your response. You are a stand up guy. In these past few years there hasn't been anything that I would call a bad runner. Everything either has ERR, Legacy or DCS and I have them all. Including EOB and K-Line cruise in some of my older locos. Most complaints or worries  today seem to be about details being wrong, incorrect lettering or sounds. The last thing you expect when ordering a new engine these days. Is a performance issue.

Soo Line posted:

I don't like this new approach by Lionel.

Since this is not an improvement - possibly a cost cutting measure................

Factor in the way it was introduced to the marketplace certainly  leaves a person suspicious.

And as mentioned earlier........how do we know which engines will have the new system.

I'm on hold for any new purchases until this becomes much more clear.

Dave

 

 

 

What Lionel really needs to do is some serious ""PRICE" cutting measures........ I paid 1200 for my Sunset 3rd rail brass S.F. 5011 2-10-4 but WHY would ANYONE pay 1100 for yard 0-8-0 switcher steamer ?    There is no logic in this except GREED. There are plenty of scale size 0-8-0's on ebay for much less !!!

Tiffany