Has MTH conceded the Advanced Steam features to Lionel with Visionline Products ( Steam Whistle, pop off valve steam, dynamo, blow down, cylinder steam ) ?

OTOH, could be that MTH has decided to tread more carefully on including such features.  After all there ARE other considerations in a longer term perspective....

Like costs, complexities, packaging nightmares, service headaches, storage/maintenance issues, product pricing/profitability impacts, application (or not) to smaller engines for smaller layouts/budgets, etc., etc., etc., etc..  Then there's a group.....of us....who simply cannot tolerate the steam-here-steam-there-steam-everywhere action in home/confined operation.....ourselves, spouses....

pets, smoke alarms,.......or cleaning smoke residue off from the engine, rolling stock, trackside treasures, etc..

I know, I know....not the popular opinion of 'Steam, Uber Alles!!' devotees.

So, it may be premature to think of who's the 'winner' in the features wars.  

Frankly, there are more times than not that I think of JLC and his prewar/postwar products as the real winners in the toy trains world.   I'm constantly amazed at how survivable/repairable/enjoyable those ol' diecast steamers are......even with their pill/oil cookers and simple piston-puffers creating smoke rings of delight.  Just enough.....not too much.....to get that all-important smile from the onlookers.....including myself.

Who knows?   

Time will tell.

MHO, of course.

KD

KD nailed it. Some of us would rather have solid items that work out of the box. Let Lionel and their customers support the shipping industry. Keep it simple MTH. Less to break means fewer headaches.

Pete

UPS certainly likes all of the new gizmos on the Lionel steamers.

Ironically, the smoke effects seem to be the least of the issues lately. 

What's really interesting, MTH was the first to show some of these effects years ago before Lionel released engines with them.  

I was not aware there was some sort of competition going on . . . 

That said, Lionel has been far more willing to push the boat out on operating smoke and indeed other features than MTH (think swinging bell etc). These appeal to me but that’s just MHO.

What I am not sure about is whether there is some system limitation in DCS that means multiple smoke units including dual chamber units cannot be supported. I don’t know the answer but have in mind that the current generation of Legacy boards have multiple outputs for smoke as well as light controls. Dual chamber units (mainly to provide stack and whistle smoke) are fairly common in Legacy steamers.

I have a PS2 Erie Triplex that has smoke units fore and aft and a PS2 UP coal turbine with three smoke units (one in the lead engine and two in the turbine) that will smoke out any room it runs in. But in the latter case there are two separate control boards and the only smoke settings are low-medium-high. 

I was not aware there was some sort of competition going on . . . 

Where have you been since MTH began??

I don't think you'll see anything new from MTH until someone else buys the company.  What was the last new release from MTH?.......the 44 ton that didn't even come with smoke as originally advertised.  

No new tooling, no new products, catalogs that basically mirror whats in the latest Lionel catalog. Nothing!  

MartyE posted:

Ironically, the smoke effects seem to be the least of the issues lately. 

What's really interesting, MTH was the first to show some of these effects years ago before Lionel released engines with them.  

I very clearly remember the York MTH debuted these features - I seem to remember it on a G Gauge engine? Probably at least 10-15 years ago. I thought the smoking whistle, and particularly, the swinging bell, were the absolute coolest things I'd seen on a toy train in years. It was a BIG DEAL and the talk of the show - lots of crowds gathered around. Granted, it was a bit busier in York those days. Fun times...

Ironically, I've got two Legacy locos with the swinging bell - the S2 and H10. Arguably, that feature was what got me to buy them. I know MTH has put the smoking whistle in some (all?) G Gauge steamers and a few O Gauge Premier locos (Big Boy, etc). I don't recall ever seeing an MTH engine with the swinging bell, unless I'm mistaken?

Frankly, I think this is a rather silly question that can not be answered.

MTH and Lionel use, for the most part, different operating systems....although some crossover can be obtained/made to work.  Frequently, our decision on which steam locomotive to buy starts with what operating system we have. 

Further, Lionel's prices have drifted into Third Rail territory.....without the Third Rail detail or QC or ability to actually manufacture what was cataloged.  Case in point is the last round of UP FEFs that each company put out.  You could buy a PS3 FEF with passenger cars for less than the $1,500 or so that Big Orange wanted for their latest version of the 844 and 838.  And Orange totally missed on their 838 and didn't deliver what was promised.

Personally, I think Lionel has better sound but MTH has consistently put better smoke units in their steam engines.   I don't think Lionel has "won" anything here.  Nor has MTH "lost" anything.  Their products run on different operating systems with different price points.  Each has their respective strengths and weaknesses.  As consumers, it's nice to be able to pick what we want.

Now, I will close with this:  I respect how MTH makes a lot of their Steam Engines in South Korea while Lionel now makes their steamers in China.

My MTH One Gauge Triplexes both have quilling whistle function as well as smoking whistles. They are probably 8 to ten years old by now.

Joe

Also, and this is just personal preference, but I'd rather see Lionel forego all of the other smoke features outside of the Primary Stack(s) and add dynamo steam.  It would likely be more reliable and is, IMHO, more visually impressive.

When the whistle is near the smoke stacks, it's often hard to see the whistle steam come out when the engine is in motion. 

Granted, when the whistle is set further back, I really like it.

I don't think the steam chest effect or injector effect is consistently impressive in day to day running.

But I totally dig the dynamo effect.

NYC 428 posted:

I don't think you'll see anything new from MTH until someone else buys the company.  What was the last new release from MTH?.......the 44 ton that didn't even come with smoke as originally advertised.  

No new tooling, no new products, catalogs that basically mirror whats in the latest Lionel catalog. Nothing!  

How awful.

IC fan posted:

NYC 428 posted:

I don't think you'll see anything new from MTH until someone else buys the company.  What was the last new release from MTH?.......the 44 ton that didn't even come with smoke as originally advertised.  

No new tooling, no new products, catalogs that basically mirror whats in the latest Lionel catalog. Nothing!  

How awful.

And meanwhile....back at the ranch...in Columbia, MD...

We find successful support for diversified model railroading/toy trains markets of G, Standard, O, S, HO scales, support and manufacturing for appropriate products for the European market, reproductions and enhancements of prewar iconic products of pioneer toy train manufacturers of the past century, resistance to stifling/expensive licensing costs on behalf of the entire hobby industry, continued leadership/management by the namesake originator of the company who has never forsaken his personal passion for the hobby since his business entry at age 12 (!!) in 1973, who continues to be tireless in the hobby's promotion among retailers, clubs, and individuals of like dedication.  Etc., etc., etc..   

Yes, how awful.    If only we could take all this success to date, sell it several times over to groups of investors to generate funds for new tooling for a new O3R product.  You know, like following other investment group strategies.....sell off the chaff (G, Std, European O, S, HO)....keep the wheat (O3R)........so simple.

If only.

Gentlefolk!......place your bets!

What I'm waiting for is the smokin bell !!

I would like to see cylinder cock steam at starting, but NOT at the expense of reliability and an MSRP that is $200-$300 higher than a competitive offering.  Would you rather trust a band of hobbyists to get the product correctly rendered, fairly priced and reliable, or a bunch of Wall Street investment bankers?

Technically, Hudson, I believe that Orange is owned by a Private Equity Firm.....and thus not available on Wall Street or any other exchange.  

MTH took the same approach with subways, leaving the more complex operating door feature to Lionel. Anecdotally speaking, this may have been The right decision since the two people I know with the Lionel model have had all kinds of problems with them.  

NYC 428 posted:

I don't think you'll see anything new from MTH until someone else buys the company. 

I sometimes wonder what the fate of MTH is when Mike, Rich, and ANdy decide it's time to retire.  Not that it's any of our business but I wonder what the plan of succession or exit plan would be.  It seems these 3 have been the heart and soul of MTH.  I hope they're around for a while but in the case they want to play golf and relax I wonder who takes the reins? 

You know, this really is up in the air. Some people that I have run into at my LTS don't care for all the features, some others do. Now, me personally, as long as the steam engines have smokestacks that smoke, that's all I need(even though I do have some that don't). I'm. It much of a Diesel head, but I do like some of the stuff I have seen. Being that I haven't bought any MTH engines, I can't really say anything about them. Though, what I have seen via other people and what I've heard, they must be doing something right. Sometimes it's not all the bells and whistles that is needed, how about a nice variety of engines that others don't seem to make. If I did manage to get around to buying some engines by MTH, I'm sure I'd be satisfied with what I was getting.

mike w posted:

What I'm waiting for is the smokin bell !!

And swinging whistle!

Oh yeah, I also want a Fireman the Riverdances on the deckplate.

Rusty

"

Berkshire President posted:

 

Further, Lionel's prices have drifted into Third Rail territory.....without the Third Rail detail or QC or ability to actually manufacture what was cataloged. 

My most troublesome locos have been 3rd Rail; mostly mechanical and detail-failure centered (electronically - and the electronics are Lionel - they have been OK). I have had the pilot and part of the side rod on a new ATSF 2-10-4 simply fall off as I unwrapped the factory padding. I fixed it (had to make a new rivet for the rod; epoxied the pilot back on). Had to modify a J3a Hudson tender just to get it to go around a curve - an 072 curve. Those are 2 examples. Do you own any 3rd Rail items?

Have you compared the detailing on comparable models?

I have been waiting  4 years - soon to be 5 - for my "latest" pre-order from 3rd Rail - and they have announced locos lately that disappeared form the list as quickly as they appeared. Until my NYC R-2 electric comes in (it has not yet been cancelled as of last month; it just never gets made), I won't order any more. 

I do give 3rd Rail ERR Command upgrade kit business. Will continue to.

I got my first Lionel train a few years into the post war era. My train collection (since 1997) is much more MTH (Premier) than Lionel but I own scale-sized models from every O gauge brand and run my locomotives conventionally. For me, a modern locomotive is satisfactory if it has excellent manufacturing quality, scale size and details, sounds, lights and maybe speed control. I don't even run smoke on steamers. My preference is for simplicity, ease of maintenance, reliability, and fewer features that I consider unnecessary and don't want to pay for. Designing and manufacturing this way results in lower prices, fewer manufacturing defects, and probably better customer experiences. And, I think it is a manufacturing and marketing strategy that has been consciously adopted by MTH in its competition with Lionel - to whom I don't believe that MTH has "conceded" anything. They just recognize that many customers share my views. And, don't get me wrong - I have modern Lionel locomotives that I think are terrific. But they are not the largest and most expensive ones which, in my case, were made by MTH.

MELGAR

Rusty Traque posted:

mike w posted:

What I'm waiting for is the smokin bell !!

And swinging whistle!

Oh yeah, I also want a Fireman the Riverdances on the deckplate.

Rusty

Because MTH supports DCC and with DCC you can add your own decoders you could make your own swinging bells, waving engineers, and firemen shoveling coal. People have been doing it for years. Its only because Lionel's and MTH's DCS systems are closed you haven't seen that sort of innovation here.

Pete

"Would you rather trust a band of hobbyists to get the product correctly rendered, fairly priced and reliable, or a bunch of Wall Street investment bankers?"

I don't think this is remotely correct or fair as a characterization of the staff of the respective companies.  Plenty of model railroad fans at Lionel, and I doubt very much whether the leadership of MTH have personal layouts in their homes.  This is a fantasy that certain hobbyists have maintained since the days after Richard Kughn sold Lionel.  

Not that any of this makes a ****ed bit of difference.  Joshua Lionel Cowen and Alfred Carlton Gilbert were not model railroaders, for starters . Dick Maddox, who some would say was one of the best leaders Lionel has had in recent decades was much more interested in other things than toy trains, for another thing.

Remember that Lionel is a toy company and MTH is a scale model railroad company.  MTH makes no products to introduce the average consumer to the hobby, such as the Lionel Ready-To-Play sets which can be purchased for under $100. If you compare availability of basic, relatively inexpensive starter sets and their user friendliness/price Lionel is clearly a toy company and MTH appeals to the upper end of the spectrum cost-wise.  Thus arguing about pricing on rare $2,000 locomotives that almost no one buys and assuming that is definitive is simply apples and oranges.  In the last 10 years, Lionel is the only company doing new features and tooling of substance, so you are going to pay for that, given the boutique nature of the hobby and the hand assembled nature of the product.  If I'm going to give a kid a starter set, I'd rather give her or him a $200 set and buy some extra track, rolling stock, buildings than spend $400 on a higher quality, scale-like MTH set that requires them to have a smart device to even use the product.  Your mileage may vary .

Landsteiner posted:

"Would you rather trust a band of hobbyists to get the product correctly rendered, fairly priced and reliable, or a bunch of Wall Street investment bankers?"

I don't think this is remotely correct or fair as a characterization of the staff of the respective companies.  Plenty of model railroad fans at Lionel,

Well, "model railroad" fans are one thing but, true Model Railroaders is a completely different story, in my opinion. As a result, Lionel seems to make more of their share of mistakes involving prototypical accuracy, especially involving  colors.

and I doubt very much whether the leadership of MTH have personal layouts in their homes. 

Probably very true. However, the folks at MTH and Atlas (as did Weaver) seem to have the ability to do research from color books, historical & modeling societies, and technical experts, in order to produce their models to as close to prototype fidelity as economically possible for the 3-Rail market (and I'm NOT talking about fantasy paint schemes).  

This is a fantasy that certain hobbyists have maintained since the days after Richard Kughn sold Lionel.  

Not that any of this makes a ****ed bit of difference.  Joshua Lionel Cowan and Alfred Carlton Gilbert were not model railroaders, for starters . Dick Maddox, who some would say was one of the best leaders Lionel has had in recent decades was much more interested in other things than toy trains, for another thing.

My gripe is even when MTH adds features like the steaming whistle, it takes an act of Congress to actually get the smoke out of it!  Why in the world it just doesn't work whenever you blow the whistle is totally mystifying, at least to me!  It's such a PITA to get the effect that I don't bother!  OTOH with Lionel, you just blow the whistle, and if the whistle smoke is enabled, it smokes, seems that's how it should work!  With MTH, you have to go to a special screen, then activate the whistle, and finally use the thumbwheel to vary it's intensity.  By that time I've forgotten why I wanted to blow the stinkin' whistle!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

My gripe is even when MTH adds features like the steaming whistle, it takes an act of Congress to actually get the smoke out of it! 

Are you confusing the "smoking whistle" with the "playable/variable whistle"? I'm not aware of any issues with those few "smoking whistles" on MTH models, but I sure agree with the PITA "playable/variable whistle" process on MTH steam locomotive models. 

Why in the world it just doesn't work whenever you blow the whistle is totally mystifying, at least to me!  It's such a PITA to get the effect that I don't bother!  OTOH with Lionel, you just blow the whistle, and if the whistle smoke is enabled, it smokes, seems that's how it should work!  With MTH, you have to go to a special screen, then activate the whistle, and finally use the thumbwheel to vary it's intensity.  By that time I've forgotten why I wanted to blow the stinkin' whistle!

It is a playable whistle, but for the life of me, why not just let it smoke whenever you blow the whistle?  How many people after the first time or two are going to go to the trouble to actually get smoke out of it!  Truthfully, I'd much rather have the the plain whistle steam effect tied to the whistle.  Of course, the Premier BB with that feature has a whistle that sounds like a wounded cow, and bears no resemblance to the real Big Boy whistle, that doesn't help the effect.

I have only been back in this Hobby for three years.  I started with Lionel and purchased the engines I wanted from around 2009.  I feel the quality of their models was really high in those years.  I later added MTH to my layout as I appreciated the quality of the rolling stock. I am pleased to run both companies products with DCS at this time.  The latest Lionel Vision-line Challenger and the H10 are great additions.  However I am ordering the MTH Bush funeral series to run behind the Challenger as they look more normal on my 072 curves and I am putting together a great looking MTH military train with the new Abram tank cars. For me both companies work together to create a more dynamic and interesting layout.  I wish them both good luck and will continue to support their growth with my orders.

Duncan

A couple of months ago, there was a 2016 PW steamer on sale at Houston Tinplate,  Looked OK,  Oiled and lubed it up.  put on track.  slight hesitation.  picked up back by cab, just enough to get all but the front drive wheels off the track.  ran full power for a moment.  put in reverse far same,  put back on track.  Ran it foreward.  Locked in e-unit. Ran on seasonal layout for 3 hours straight.  did not get hot.  put a few smoke drops in...

Can today's engines work like that in the future......?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

A couple of months ago, there was a 2016 PW steamer on sale at Houston Tinplate,  Looked OK,  Oiled and lubed it up.  put on track.  slight hesitation.  picked up back by cab, just enough to get all but the front drive wheels off the track.  ran full power for a moment.  put in reverse far same,  put back on track.  Ran it foreward.  Locked in e-unit. Ran on seasonal layout for 3 hours straight.  did not get hot.  put a few smoke drops in...

Can today's engines work like that in the future......?

If you are judging reliability and quality, then it is not fair to compare a brand new, fancy electronic, state of the art, engine with a engine made 60 years ago.

You know postwar will win.  Dont rub it in.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

A couple of months ago, there was a 2016 PW steamer on sale at Houston Tinplate,  Looked OK,  Oiled and lubed it up.  put on track.  slight hesitation.  picked up back by cab, just enough to get all but the front drive wheels off the track.  ran full power for a moment.  put in reverse far same,  put back on track.  Ran it foreward.  Locked in e-unit. Ran on seasonal layout for 3 hours straight.  did not get hot.  put a few smoke drops in...

Can today's engines work like that in the future......?

You are comparing apples to oranges. It is very easy to strip out electronics and run trains in such a basic form as you like, but so many seem to like the whiz bang stuff and are bored by the simple stuff. I expect my modern trains will run with or without fancy electronics until I die, at least.

I’d have to agree that less is better, at least for a reliability stand point........at some point, we’ll all have to go inside these pups for service, whether it be yourself, or a service tech....the more stuff packed in there, the more a chance something else will get broke, or fail......I don’t need whistle steam on every engine I own, I have a few, that seem to be working fine for now.....give me fuel injection, but I’m good with crank up windows....as others said, less stuff to break...😉.........Pat 

Smoke comes out the stack synced to 4 chuffs a revolution and I'm happy. 

All my steam locomotives are MTH Premier with Pittman motors and PS2 3V boards. Stuff has been rock solid. 

While less may be more and simple may be more reliable, I would NOT have gotten back into this hobby if all that was being offered were Post War resissues with better paint, like in the MPC era.  I grew up in that era....but I'd gotten my fill.

The semi-scale stuff introduced during the LTI era wouldn't have cut it for me, either.  Once you get an appreciation for scale or mostly scale or "scale with three rail accommodations", it's hard to go back.

Just my opinion, but I'd take a TMCC steamer with Rail Sounds 4 or 5 or any of the early Legacy models RUNNING IN CONVENTIONAL MODE over the old stuff running in conventional.  I like 4 chuffs, robust sound, and modern smoke out the stack.  I like the scale proportions and outstanding detail.

When I occasionally hear "the mighty sound of steam" these days, I cringe or cry.  Or both.

dkdkrd posted:

MartyE posted:

NYC 428 posted:

I don't think you'll see anything new from MTH until someone else buys the company. 

I sometimes wonder what the fate of MTH is when Mike, Rich, and ANdy decide it's time to retire.  Not that it's any of our business but I wonder what the plan of succession or exit plan would be.  It seems these 3 have been the heart and soul of MTH.  I hope they're around for a while but in the case they want to play golf and relax I wonder who takes the reins? 

"Play golf and relax"......?  Spelled 'golf' backwards one day.....explained everything about my game!  Returned to the basement back home for some real relaxation!!

Re the post-Mike/Rich/Andy future of MTH?.......

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.

.

.

Seems to me that based off of what I am reading here, many people like Lionel's features, and want them. Then another half of people either don't want the features ( they run diesel) , and or, they don't want to pay more than $1000 a year for an engine.

What mystifies me is how Lionel can offer a steam loco with LEGACY, steaming whistle and swinging bell for less than $800 retail, which seams to debunk the "I like to pay less money" myth. Hmmmm... Lionel can do it, but MTH can't??? Hmmmm...

I also notice Eric Siegel buys WAY LESS MTH now... he, like myself, likes the new steam features. 

I doubt there is a plan. NOBODY is taking the reins, and all that will be left is Coca-Cola, I mean, Lionel. LOL

I'm down for the Eric Siegel fireman doing the riverdance, but I'd like the dance numbers to be variable in length and  choreography.

aussteve posted:

I'm down for the Eric Siegel fireman doing the riverdance, but I'd like the dance numbers to be variable in length and  choreography.

And I want the Fireman to do the " East Coast Swing" and "Black Bottom" LOL

So, who is doing the DCS and DCC upgrades now these days that JDS LTD is out of business?

He did REALLY cool mods, as we have seen at York almost 110 years ago. Would be interested in trying to do some DCS and DCC mods, like one of the previous posters had mentioned further back in the thread...

David

Apologies to Gordon Lightfoot.*

"There was a time in this great land when model trains were fun,

A train, some track, a power pack, on the floor to run,

Long before command control and sound came into the deal,

We used our imaginations and made it seem so real."

Rusty

*Canadian Railway Trilogy