Has the MTH Proto 3/2 Patent lapsed?

Interesting. The patent may have expired but who has the legal $$$ to find out for sure.

My memory from many years ago business class is that patents were for 17 years.   I don't remember anything about maintenance.    I also remember that they renewable one time.   

prrjim posted:

My memory from many years ago business class is that patents were for 17 years.   I don't remember anything about maintenance.    I also remember that they renewable one time.   

Its 20 years from the filing date (plus any term adjustments). 17 years from grant is the older term. You need to pay an issue fee when it is granted, and periodically pay the maintenance fees to keep it in force. If you dont pay, it lapses and becomes public domain. This can happen for a variety of reasons, business related and otherwise.

Boilermaker1 posted:

If you dont pay, it lapses and becomes public domain. This can happen for a variety of reasons, business related and otherwise.

Yup.  You pay, you stay.  You don't, you won't.

Usually by choice as the maintenance fee bills get sent to your legal office which then you as the assignee authorize to pay them or not.  Towards the end of a patent's life, it's value vs. the fees gets evaluated and then decisions get made.

As I recall the concept that was patented was using motor rpm to regulate speed and control things like chuff timing.  Several DCC manufacturers control chuff by detecting the back EMF spikes off the motor, which occur at the rate of the motor's RPM times the number of poles on the armature.  The downside of MTH's system is that you need a flywheel with the timing stripes on it.  In some very tight installations finding room for a flywheel and optical sensor can be a problem. 

This makes sense in an odd way. I was wondering why MTH had really started backing off of the Proto 3/2 products lately. I really couldn't understand why they would design a brand new 44 Tonner and NOT make it convertible to 2 rail. Perhaps this explains a bit? Or perhaps not. Who knows. MTH had a great idea with Proto 3/2, but they only did it 9/10ths of the way which basically made it irrelevant to the masses. It's a shame.

I wonder if Lionel takes this opportunity to dip their foot in to the 2 rail pool a little deeper?

It would be nice if Lionel did dip their feet in but they would have to re-tool their diesel trucks and their steam locomotives or at least make some changes and that will cost money. Also 2 rail TMCC is nowhere near as popular as DCC (in the 2 rail world)  so they would have to use boards that are DCC compatible like they do in S scale. Lionel would also need things like fixed pilots and full length hand rails. 

I'm betting that MTH knows Lionel won't compete with them in the small market of 2 rail. 

If you pull the patent and the claims and review prior art my opinion is the patent has doubtful validity.

A locomotive that goes 2-rail/3-rail was produced in the 1950's -- an obscure F-unit from the article I read. All you need is a 2-rail locomotive, a removable pickup roller and an SPDT switch. It's easiest with wipers on all wheels, but can also be set up to work on what I like to call "split pickup" 2-rail locomotives.

Considering the advances made in rechargeable battery power, pickup from ANY rail might soon be passe.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

Considering the advances made in rechargeable battery power, pickup from ANY rail might soon be passe.

Simon

No argument here.

And yet, there are still blokes building DC layouts - after we thought DCC was the answer to "The Maiden's Prayer."  

Lionel is doing some very good scale work that can easily be converted.  I just got the chance to compare Lionel PA truck sideframes to Overland and CLW fully sprung sideframes, and I gotta tell you at three feet you cnnot tell the difference.

Unlike older MTH, Lionel seems to be taking pains to get the wheelbase correct.

Simon Winter posted:

Considering the advances made in rechargeable battery power, pickup from ANY rail might soon be passe.

Simon

I don't see rail pickup ever going away.  It's just too practical not to do.  Can you imaging trying to track batteries for a fleet of 50+ locomotives that many in the hobby have?  And the cost of caring and replacing them?  And rail pick up is way better for the environment.

MTH is always very responsive to my questions on Facebook. I posted this link there as well. They haven't responded yet.

sinclair posted:

Simon Winter posted:

Considering the advances made in rechargeable battery power, pickup from ANY rail might soon be passe.

Simon

I don't see rail pickup ever going away.  It's just too practical not to do.  Can you imaging trying to track batteries for a fleet of 50+ locomotives that many in the hobby have?  And the cost of caring and replacing them?  And rail pick up is way better for the environment.

I totally agree. I keep reading on this and other forums that the technology for battery power is here but I have yet to see a single manufacturer offer a factory battery powered locomotive. No doubt there are pros to battery power but it ain't all a day at the beach. There are cons too and in addition to the cons mentioned above there are no NMRA Standards for battery power which means each system is proprietary and will not work with any other system. It's not available factory installed and correct me if I am wrong but it isn't a whole lot cheaper than a DCC install if the user wants sound. 

Aw,  folks are just uneasy about losing the center rail.  It is gonna happen, soon.

That is correct AHGR matt. This was "prior art" not cited and the reason I concluded the patent is worthless.

sinclair posted:

Simon Winter posted:

Considering the advances made in rechargeable battery power, pickup from ANY rail might soon be passe.

Simon

I don't see rail pickup ever going away.  It's just too practical not to do.  Can you imaging trying to track batteries for a fleet of 50+ locomotives that many in the hobby have?  And the cost of caring and replacing them?  And rail pick up is way better for the environment.

What's the difference between a loco with a battery for power and the locos sold today that use batteries?  All my MTH and Lionel locos (OK, so they're 3-rail) either have batteries or a place to put a battery.

The battery packs I'm using I get for $15-$20, the MTH batteries are $12.

It's been over a year since I made my first BPRC conversion (and 3-rail to 2-rail conversion of 10 steam and 1 diesel engines) and so far have not had to replace any of my battery packs, when I do it'll become just another part of being in the hobby.  As much $$$ as we spend anyway a $20 battery is a drop in the bucket, you can spend that much on a 2oz bottle of paint.

Bob Delbridge posted:

 a $20 battery is a drop in the bucket, you can spend that much on a 2oz bottle of paint.

That's some expensive paint!

Well...I may have exaggerated a bit , but here's a partial listing off Tru-Colors site:

1 OZ. BOTTLE $ 5.69
2 OZ. BOTTLE $ 10.25
16 OZ. BOTTLE – THINNER $ 43.95
16 OZ. BOTTLE – PAINT $80.95

These paints (18ml bottle, .6 oz.) are $2.99 bottle:

http://shop.thearmypainter.com...oupId=8#Dragon%20Red

and Badger ModelFlex paints are $4.25/oz.

Smoke fluid is about $5 for a 2oz bottle.

And if I want to watch the History Channel, AMC, or the Travel Channel it'll cost me $80/month to upgrade from my current package to the package that carries them!!!  I'd rather spend my $$$ on batteries

Super caps have been hailed as what everyone should want in MTH locomotives because it eliminates the battery, but now there appears to be a movement to go all battery.  BTW, all my MTH still have batteries. 

Yeah, there appears to be a movement toward battery power but in reality there are only a handful of guys like Bob who use it in O scale. I've been to many layouts and not one of them was dead rail.

Bob, you obviously love the battery power system and that's great. I'm glad you like it and I have to admit that not having to wire a layout is a very tempting idea but the thought of having to rip out perfectly good electronics out of about 25 locomotives is very distressing. Those electronics cost me money whether they were factory installed or installed by me. I also spent $300 on a DCS system and $700 on a DCC system. I can't stand the thought of throwing those systems away. I guess I could sell them and get something but I would much rather add stay alive capacitors and wire my layout then go through all those conversions. I feel that conversions are a part of the hobby but they aren't modeling. In other words you aren't making something look more like the real thing and although conversions are something I can do, I don't necessarily enjoy doing it.

To me the biggest con of battery power is that the user must install the system in every locomotive they acquire whether they do it themselves or pay someone to do it. You can never just buy a locomotive and put it on the track and run it. I can do that whether the locomotive has DCC or DCS or just DC. If the day ever comes that factory battery powered locomotives are offered then I can see battery power taking off.

These are just my opinions. If there is anyone out there is just starting out and they want to use battery power for whatever reason I say go for it. Just know ahead of time that like any other system of model railroad control it also has it's pros and cons.

I have decided that I will not be making any changes to my style of model railroading and what I mean by that is because of all the money I have spent I will not be changing scales nor will I be changing the amount the amount of rails I have, nor will I be changing what control system I use. So for me there's no going to HO or N, no going back to 3 rail and no going to any other control system. I just can't afford it. However, if I was forced to move to a smaller residence than I would consider changing scales.

I don't know if Bob2's comment was directed at me or everyone or what but I lost the center rail years ago.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Well...I may have exaggerated a bit , but here's a partial listing off Tru-Colors site:

1 OZ. BOTTLE $ 5.69
2 OZ. BOTTLE $ 10.25
16 OZ. BOTTLE – THINNER $ 43.95
16 OZ. BOTTLE – PAINT $80.95

Great Googlymooglies!

It's been a long time since I needed to actually buy any paint - glad that I have the stocks that I do have in the racks.

Smoke fluid is about $5 for a 2oz bottle.

Well, there's money I get to save,

And if I want to watch the History Channel, AMC, or the Travel Channel it'll cost me $80/month to upgrade from my current package to the package that carries them!!!  I'd rather spend my $$$ on batteries

I'd rather read a book,

I don't pay for any TV.  If I can't watch t for free, it's not worth watching.  Besides, I'm too busy playing with my kids or my trains to have time for TV.

I have newer LEGO trains, and they are all battery powered as I got into them after LEGO moved from powered rails, so I am no stranger to battery operated trains.  And I have to say, they spend most of the time on the shelf as it's such a hassle to keep the batteries up on them, and getting the right remote, and sometimes getting said remote to talk to the train.  I'll stick with my powered rails, and trusty TMCC/Leagcy.

I was joking.  Itoo have 2-rail,poweredbygiant Variacs.  Sorry about the run- on typing; editing here is just too painful.

I will probably have only one or two battery powered locomotives in the end - nothing says you have to convert the entire enginehouse.  A giant 17/64 AC-8 will be. First candidate - thetender is as big as my Mustang convertible' s tender.

Hudson J1e posted:

not having to wire a layout is a very tempting idea but the thought of having to rip out perfectly good electronics out of about 25 locomotives is very distressing. Those electronics cost me money whether they were factory installed or installed by me. I also spent $300 on a DCS system and $700 on a DCC system. I can't stand the thought of throwing those systems away. I guess I could sell them and get something but I would much rather add stay alive capacitors and wire my layout then go through all those conversions.

To me the biggest con of battery power is that the user must install the system in every locomotive they acquire whether they do it themselves or pay someone to do it. You can never just buy a locomotive and put it on the track and run it.

Phil, all too true.  I had a completely wired 3-rail layout and all my engines were either PS2 or TMCC.

Thing is, I've always thought of going battery-power RC.  Ed Reutling almost had me with his cobbled RC car/boat/plane system but I wanted something I "knew" was more or less made for trains, so I waited until I found it.

I gutted my 10 steam engines (all PS2) and never looked back.  I sold the boards but still have the other components and 3-rail rollers.  I even have my DCS and TMCC systems, probably give them to my 2 grandsons.

I lost money but IMO it was worth the effort.

I guess anytime you install a system, whether it's PS2/3, TMCC, or BPRC, wiring, soldering, and making connections will always be part of the process.  I will say the BPRC was easier than installing PS2, or maybe I was used to doing them by this time.

I'm betting Williams by Bachmann will have an O-scale/gauge BPRC (Bluetooth) engine soon, they already offer them in HO I believe.

The good thing about BPRC is the simplicity of it all.  I've read maybe a dozen pages and numerous forum posts, but that's it.  Just look at the "Bible" for DCS and all the questions people ask here, that's a lot of pages and a lot of questions.  I suppose I could make it more complicated by adding sound, smoke, and more lights, but I don't want to.

BlueRails bluetooth board and App makes it even easier and it has sounds.  The BIG drawback is their board is made for HO, but I just had to try one in my Weaver RS3 (so far so good).  They'll need to make at least a 4-6 amp board for 2-motor diesels.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Hudson J1e posted:

not having to wire a layout is a very tempting idea but the thought of having to rip out perfectly good electronics out of about 25 locomotives is very distressing. Those electronics cost me money whether they were factory installed or installed by me. I also spent $300 on a DCS system and $700 on a DCC system. I can't stand the thought of throwing those systems away. I guess I could sell them and get something but I would much rather add stay alive capacitors and wire my layout then go through all those conversions.

To me the biggest con of battery power is that the user must install the system in every locomotive they acquire whether they do it themselves or pay someone to do it. You can never just buy a locomotive and put it on the track and run it.

Phil, all too true.  I had a completely wired 3-rail layout and all my engines were either PS2 or TMCC.

Thing is, I've always thought of going battery-power RC.  Ed Reutling almost had me with his cobbled RC car/boat/plane system but I wanted something I "knew" was more or less made for trains, so I waited until I found it.

I gutted my 10 steam engines (all PS2) and never looked back.  I sold the boards but still have the other components and 3-rail rollers.  I even have my DCS and TMCC systems, probably give them to my 2 grandsons.

I lost money but IMO it was worth the effort.

I guess anytime you install a system, whether it's PS2/3, TMCC, or BPRC, wiring, soldering, and making connections will always be part of the process.  I will say the BPRC was easier than installing PS2, or maybe I was used to doing them by this time.

I'm betting Williams by Bachmann will have an O-scale/gauge BPRC (Bluetooth) engine soon, they already offer them in HO I believe.

The good thing about BPRC is the simplicity of it all.  I've read maybe a dozen pages and numerous forum posts, but that's it.  Just look at the "Bible" for DCS and all the questions people ask here, that's a lot of pages and a lot of questions.  I suppose I could make it more complicated by adding sound, smoke, and more lights, but I don't want to.

BlueRails bluetooth board and App makes it even easier and it has sounds.  The BIG drawback is their board is made for HO, but I just had to try one in my Weaver RS3 (so far so good).  They'll need to make at least a 4-6 amp board for 2-motor diesels.

BlueRails blue tooth is very intriguing, but won't be less problematic than TMCC or DCS: just a horse of a different color.

Bob you got some set of cohones! I'm glad it worked out for you. Like Bob2 maybe i will buy a battery powered locomotive some day. 

I started out in 3 rail and after a few years the center rail really started bothering me so I spent money on conversions. I just don't want to convert to a new system. It would be like starting over. 

If the issue is 2 Rail Versus 3 Rail, MTH still has it and PS-3 did away with the need for the polarity switch.  PS-3 is polarity sensitive and can pick up signal on either track trail.  G

Hudson J1e posted:

Bob you got some set of cohones! I'm glad it worked out for you. Like Bob2 maybe i will buy a battery powered locomotive some day. 

I started out in 3 rail and after a few years the center rail really started bothering me so I spent money on conversions. I just don't want to convert to a new system. It would be like starting over. 

Phil,

Truth be told the center rail started bothering me with my 1st BPRC conversion, I was kinda OK with it until then.

I could have left the center rail in place (some might say should have being 7 of 8 diesels still have the center rollers!!!) and easily run the BPRC engines along side my DCS and TMCC stuff.  But pulling up the center rail was cheaper than (1) buying new track plus ripping out the old and (2) converting the 3-rail drivers and other wheels to 2-rail.  I'm happy, the engines run great, and they stay on the track with the 3-rail flanges (don't really notice them while running).

Main thing is I like to tinker and build.  I do find it odd that I'll take a $500 (Ebay price) steam engine and hack away at it but won't touch a much cheaper boxcar.  My tinkering won't win any model contests but I'm pleased with the results.  Modeling the Seaboard Air Line I've ended up with a lot of pieces that are unique or seldom modeled by others.

It is all horses for courses when it comes to battery or track power. BobD's method of using BPRC to get rid of that unrealistic centre rail is very cost effective.

I run DCC outdoors with little issue but I have a need for a loco to take when I visit a 3-rail club in the city  and I would still like to be able to use it at home. The 3-rail is not like Lionel, it is more akin to NMRA standards and much of it was once stud contact... the scale system of the 3-rail era over here.

So that means if I select some wheels with a bit wider tread than I normally  use that will enable the loco (when built) to run through points on both layouts. Rather than have a removable skate and switch the decoder in/out I have chosen to use BPRC.  My testing (using an existing loco) so far shows over 2 hours of running per battery charge and I have plenty of those batteries that can be charged up  before I go. Realistically,  I will probably only need 2 of them for a weekend.

I see some thinking that maybe a transmitter is required for every loco you own. A quick examination of that idea would show it is not necessarily so.  Even if you had 100 locos, how many are you going to run at any one time? Taking the Deltang system I use as an example, how would I manage it if I did have those 100 locos and had to provide for ( say) 10 operators. I would have (as many do) each loco equipped with battery charging socket, on/off switch and bind button ( all easily accessible, such as under a removable coal pile). When it comes time to run a certain loco I would turn it on and bind it to the transmitter I had in my hand (1 of 10) . So would everyone else.  It is also possible to bind more than one loco at a time to the tx and also to have a tx with selector switch to control several locos if (say) you are running on your own. On my layout as it stands that means I could have two trains running around the loops and be shunting the yard with another engine, all from the same box in my hands. How is it possible? The receiver/esc board in the loco's can be set to respond to the last valid command from me and continue doing what I last told them until I set the loco selector switch back to their 'channel' and alter the setting. 

As for charging them all up, the battery technology I use will keep more than 90% of its charge after 12 months. So practically, on a regular basis , I would only charge the ones I have just used.

However, I already have  a substantial investment in DCC going back many years and visiting locos normally come chipped so there is no great desire for me to change. That doesn't mean there may not be more BPRC locos appearing in my collection; they have a distinct advantage when the rails are covered in ice.

regards

 Bob Comerford