Help! Finished! E-Unit Repair & Shell Cleaning (Chessie GP20)

Thanks again Bill!  I bought this originally to make a dummy out of, but now I'm motivated to fix it.  Went out shopping tonight, and minus the bluing pen (I bought one on ebay for $7.48 today, should be here by Friday), I think I'm ready for the E-Unit and frame!

Mike, you are definitely well prepared. If you do many of these, you might want to spring for a small air compressor. They go for around $100 at Sears. I don't know how I would get along without mine. I have it on a switched outlet under my work bench with the hose and nozzle hanging on a hook within arm's reach. I just flip the switch and I'm in business. You can count on me to find more ways to spend YOUR money.

Bill,

I'll be getting an air compressor eventually...  I just bought a house with my fiance in August and am slowly aquiring tools that I dont already have, an air compressor being one of them.  Found a decent upright one at Harbor Freight for $164.  I'd probably have one already if I didnt find my way back into trains!!

I'm sure I can count on you to spend more!!  But I really do appreciate it!  I hope it all works in the end!

Mike

chck out home depot or lowes for compressors,

or on-line. I bought a Porter Cable compressor

for $278 and it came with all the fixins plus

two finish power nailers, plus a mail in rebate for a

free hand held power sander. The power nailers were

worth the $278, best tools i ever bought, no more

hammer and nails and nail sets.

What are you looking to do with an air compressor?

Over the years I have acquired several.

I have a small air brush compressor, which was the first one I acquired. It won't do much, if anything more.

Just about every home improvement center carries a little outfit that includes a slightly larger compressor / stapler kit. I highly recommend this kit for anybody who is planning to do moldings. Last I looked, these kits are often on sale for around  $70. I feel that it paid for itself on first use. My older son borrowed mine, and then went out to buy his own. This compressor would certainly drive an airbrush.

My older son also had the use of an air framing nailer for a while. He tried driving it with the stapler compressor, but it couldn't keep up. (The compressor developed enough pressure, but could not provide the volume) I picked up a used portable craftsman compressor for him. Not certain about the size, it is much larger than either of the previous two. It requires 15 amps. My son does not think it is large enough to drive automotive air tools, such as an impact gun. I think it would be OK on tools, but not sandblasting or spray painting with a full sized spray gun.

Finally, we have a stationary 220 volt, 60 gallon, 150 PSI compressor in the garage.

This will run just about anything. We use this one for our home automotive air tools. I'd like to get a sandblast outfit one of these days. Right now, we don't have room in the garage.

My dad has an old Craftsman that is capable of running all sorts of air tools, so thats what I'm accustomed to.  I have a finish nailer, brad nailer, and jointly own (with my dad) a framing nailer.  My fiance also has a '91 Camaro that at some point will need some TLC.  With all of that being said, I'll need a little more than just a portable one. Although they are very nice to have.  I borrowed my dad's to turn a small bedroom 9x9 into my fiance's closet... (She's spoiled).  I've looked at Sears, Home Depot, Craigslist, but was in Harbor Freight a few weekends ago and found a decent sized one that would be suitable for my needs... I think haha

quote:

My fiance also has a '91 Camaro that at some point will need some TLC.

My older son is a professional car mechanic. He and many of the guys he knows use Dewalt Max (12 or 20 volt) cordless impact drivers. I have the 12 volt model. They aren't going to remove lug nuts, but they come in handy for all sorts of other work.

When dealing with plastic, one has to be careful with what products you can use. Some will craze or soften the plastic before you can react to it.Warm soapy/Murphys bottled water should work for most cases. The bottled water has no chemicals to leave residue when dry. As for contact cleaner look for "plastic compatible'' on the can. If not ,it will melt plastic. Good luck!

Frank

Frank,

Thanks for the heads up.  I have already cleaned the shell.  Used dish soap and it worked very well.  It is nowhere near the frame that I will be using other chemicals on, so I think it should be safe.

Mike 

Ok, so... I sprayed the e-unit today and gave it a try.  I dont know what the seller on ebay was talking about when he said the e-unit sticks, but this is what I found: 

Obviously in conventional control, power -> power off -> power (goes forward).  power -> power off -> power (goes backwards).  But, sometimes, forward or backwards, it just sits there with power to it.  I dont have the shell on, so I can see the e-unit working, but its like its not registering that its supposed to move.  

Any advice?

Also, I had both frames (with trucks) on the test track at the same time.  The one that I just bought off of ebay is roughly about 25%-35% quicker than the one that I've always had. 

Why would this be?

And one more thing, you can see from the pictures below, I straightened the rear hand rail tonight.  Has some teeth marks from pliers in it, but little enough that I can live with.  Notice the faded color of the frame I'm working on.  When i do in fact clean the rust and use the bluing pen, will it clean up nice enough to almost match the other frame I have?

Thanks,
Mike 

Your issue with the engine just sitting there could be dirty spots on the eunit, or brushes/commutator.

I usually replace the brushes when I get a "new" used item with a motor.

Mike:

CW may be right on in the above comments. But it is possible that your e-unit is cycling properly -- I am not certain if I understood your summary of operation. The e-unit plunger should drop down freely when power is removed and should pull up each time power is applied. It will cycle Forward - Neutral - Reverse - Forward - Neutral - Reverse......... When in Neutral mode it will still hum when energized and the lights will work.

Regarding the plier marks on the handrail:  I know it is too late, but when I straighten one, I just hold the frame vertical near the edge of my work bench (my 3/4 inch plywood top overhangs a couple of inched at the front edge) and I rest the handrail flat on top of the bench -- the inside of the handrail is on top the bench -- then I push down on the outer handrail to form it to the bench. This will preclude any tool marks. You can also use wood strips in a vise or Micromark (and probably others) sells some rubber jaws....link is:  http://www.micromark.com/gentl...h-set-of-2,7557.html

I do think your frame will clean up reasonably well. If you will review my final post on March 7, I outline the process that I have used with good success. The "scrubbing" that I do will leave red, oily swirl marks as you move the Dremel brush side to side and up and down across the frame surfaces. If you keep it moving, it will be just like the pattern made when scrubbing a carpet or hard surfaced floor.  When the dirty residue is removed, any shiny spots reblued, and the entire frame oiled and buffed nearly dry, it will look pretty good. The alternative of course is to actually sand it or bead blast it, followed by prime and paint. But I use the bluing to renew the original finish whenever possible. 

I forgot you question about speed:  Yes, the gearing will vary between trucks. Small speed differences can also be due to cleaning and lubrication of the motor and gears, and of course you can have different voltage drops across the entire current path:  From roller, to e-unit, to motor field and brushes, across the brushes to the armature (rotor), and back to the wheels.  But I suspect your gearing is different.

No way.  The 8030-100 motor trucks all used the exact same gears.  The difference is always due to a different state of tune/wear/electrical discrepancies.  This includes everything from gear lash, brush/bearing/gear wear, manufacturing tolerances, assembly variances... the list goes on.  But the gears are all the same.

In a Classic Toy Train article some yrs ago, In fixing and

repairing locomotives  author stated that spring tension

on the brushes will effect running and he recommended

replacing the springs when replacing the brushes.

Rob and Popi are of course correct. There is no difference in the gear part numbers for these trucks to the best of my knowledge. Sometimes they get screwed with and I do not know the history of your used truck.  Popi is right on also. The spring compression (they are technically not under tension) will affect the voltage drop in the series circuit as well as the mechanical drag (in the case of too much compression, which is not usually the case -- only if wrong brushes or springs have been installed).  New springs and/or brushes will have better electrical contact, hence lower voltage drop to the rotor (some like to call it armature) but have more mechanical drag (which is somewhat negligible. I might add that the thrust screw on top can affect the drag also. It should me adjusted in very small increments like 1/8 turn at a time. Either too loose or too tight will cause a problem.

cant take credit for the spring tensio.

that idea came from that Classic Toy Trains

article(dont remember the issue. And I cant say

that I alway follow those directions, Im cheap

and reuse old springs and brushes. I use them until

they aint got any use left in em.

quote:

In a Classic Toy Train article some yrs ago, In fixing and

repairing locomotives  author stated that spring tension

on the brushes will effect running and he recommended

replacing the springs when replacing the brushes.

If the tension on the springs is bad, certainly they should be replaced.

BUT if the tension is OK, I would not replace the springs, just the brushes.

IMHO, the reproduction springs that are available today are not made properly.

(Springs from the Lionel factory service center seem OK) They generally have too much tension. Coil springs can usually by trimmed to give proper tension. But what do you do with hair springs, such as the ones these Geeps have?

I recently rebuilt a 726 (1946) e-unit for a parts bin project. I assembled it with a reproduction plunger return spring. The plunger wouldn't pull in until about 10 volts, and buzzed when it did.

Found an original spring and installed it. The plunger pulls in at starting voltage and is silent.

Close inspection revealed that the repro spring was made of a shiny metal, and the orginal spring was a coppery-bronze color. The looked the same (diameter, gauge, turns, etc), except for the material they were made from.

A little more detail on the problem the original poster is having with the engine occasionally not starting:

I have seen this problem on motors were the commutator plare was dirty at the ends of the segments, and/or the segments were worn unevenly. Sometimes cleaning up the commutator with some fine emery cloth will resolve the uneven wear issue. Other times, I've resorted to a new armature.

To clean up the armature, sometimes I will chuck it in a drill, and run it slowly while pressing the fine emery cloth against it. I use 320 grit.

the reside is carefully cleaned away with mineral spirits.

(I'd like to try refacing the comutator with a lathe, but I don't have one)

C W, 

Thanks, I previously noticed a size difference in the brushes.  If you can see in the 2nd picture I posted last night, the top of the brushes on the motor I'm not working on come to the top of the white plastic (almost).  The one that I'm working on, are about 2/3 that size.  If I'd replace them, where would I find new brushes?  Also I just read your new post via email and I did in fact clean the commutator with a stiff pencil eraser and a small amount of alcohol.  However, I do believe it could be wearing unevenly (at the gaps of the brass or copper pieces).  If that is not the problem, where can I find armatures and are they expensive?

Bill,

Sorry for the confusion.  Here is what it is doing:

Power applied -> neutral -> power removed -> plunger does drop (it got hung up on the little gray gear looking thing once or twice last night) -> power applied -> does not move (this occurs 50% of the time), just sits there and hums with the light on.

I'm not overly concerned with the teeth marks.  They are minor.  I actually thought about using my bench like you suggested, but I was worried that (since I already saw a small crack) that the metal would break on its way back to being straight.  I figured if I used needle nose pliers I could control it a little better.  I also hope it cleans up that well!  I bought everything that you suggested so I have faith in your method!

Rob, Bill, Popi,

I've taken apart the motor truck, greased, and oiled it, then cleaned the brass commutator it on the train I'm working on.  I have not done that to the one I've had for years.  That will be my project tonight (I believe I remember that one in particular having trouble pulling cars last time I had it running over 14 years ago).  I'm not sure if spring tensioning is possible on these because its more of just a single wire lead that rests on top of the brush.

Thanks guys,
Mike 

If you want to see the effect that the different brushes alone have, just swap them with the other loco and do another running comparison.

quote:

 Also I just read your new post via email and I did in fact clean the commutator with a stiff pencil eraser and a small amount of alcohol.  However, I do believe it could be wearing unevenly (at the gaps of the brass or copper pieces).  If that is not the problem, where can I find armatures and are they expensive?

While some folks clean commutators and contacts with pencil erasers, it is not a good practice. I am going to put a link at the end of this post that leads to a detailed article on servicing Lionel motors. I think he goes way beyond a typical service, but it is a good read. (IMHO, some of his steps are only necessary for a very dirty motor)

Your locomotive probably takes an 8010-125 armature. I looked around a little, and they are not as easy to find as I thought. I think I paid around $8 - $15 the last time I purchased any.

Here is the link:

http://www.justtrains.com/Service/maint-main.asp

I polish my armatures with a stainless Dremel brush very carefully. I have never damaged one. You hold the armature in your hand and work the brush lightly and watch the direction of travel and it will not scratch but will make a nice shiny surface -- I kind of tilt the brush and use very little pressure and make any markes in the direction of the circumference.  The brushes will seat to this in the first moments or running.  This is common practice in motor/generator industry and I have used it on motors large (up to 1400 HP) and generators (up to a few MW) as well as on very small ac motors.  I have literally done hundreds if not thousands. I do it this way because it is faster and more efficient on heavily oxidized ones, however the eraser works well and emery or super fine grit sand paper work well (800 or finer). Always need to clean it all out afterwards with the spray, compressed air, and re-lube as needed.

Never use WD-40, or any lubricant, on an E-unit.

The one exception may be to use a thin coating of Neo-Lube on the plunger.

CW:

Great article that I presume Dennis Waldron provided. It is full of excellent information in my opinion as well.

I guess I don't really use sand paper -- just my ignorance of the fine nuances of abrasives. It is a very fine wet/dry product that I use.

I generally don't advise folks to use even wood or plastic sticks in the armature slots because some folks can be heavy handed. I have never had one that I could not flush clean and spray dry with electronic cleaner followed by compressed air. A light hand is used on the rotary tool brush and the finish is very fine and smooth. I have never had to replace an armature except I did ship one to an Aussie customer who had ruined his own -- it was around $30 and actually came from DEW, as he has an excellent supply of the hard to find, older parts.

I will add one note. When just putting the original brushes back in, I first clear them of the arcing marks and square the ends. You need a pretty good eye to get a square end -- I hold the brush with finger and thumb, press the face against a clean paper towel on my work bench, and give it about a half turn twist while pressing down. Sometimes it takes two twists. This will make the contact surface clean and true. You folks with a way to chuck it square can be more precise. You can tell it is true and the armature is smooth when observed arcing is minimal. How much is minimal? I can't say. It is normal to have some. It takes experience.

By the way, I shine the center rollers with a stainless Dremel brush also. Remove all oxidation and signs of arcing (pitting).

As long as you get it all out.

It IS an excellent solvent.  Pretty crummy lubricant, though.

The first time I service a used piece, I always replace the brushes because they are almost always oil soaked.

Folks tend to overlubricate, and the oil makes its way onto commutator plate and brushes.

The oil seems to seep into the brush, so when it's cleaned, the surface of the brush is OK, but it doesn't take long for the oil that is soaked into the brush to make its way back to the surface, fouling the brush again.

Of couse I never overlubricate, so on subsequent servicings, the brushes don't need replacement.  (Well... almost never)

C W,

Wow….that article was extremely helpful, thank you.  I, like I said, did in fact use a pencil eraser and wiped clean with alcohol.  Looks like I’ll give this 800-1000 grit sandpaper and mineral spirits a try.  I did the same thing (with the eraser) to my 2035 tender last night to get the whistle to work better.  It definitely works a lot better than it did before.  I’m hoping that my all my original GP20 just needs a good cleaning of the motor.

Bill,

I’d appreciate if you could send me a trial pair of brushes.  How would you like to do it?  I’ve never ripped any train apart until the other night when I cleaned the motor truck of the problem GP20.  I think everybody should do it at least once (even if nothing is wrong) to see the inter-workings and understand how these trains work.  I had no clue what was in there until the other night.  It’s a lot easier to understand the information people are giving you when you see it first.  I do have the CRC Electric parts cleaner and used that on the entire E-Unit yesterday.  I guess that is different from the dry parts cleaner?  I worked that plunger quite a bit last night to make sure it was free. 
Judging by your one post, it looks like I can use the electronic parts cleaner on the armature too?  

I’m really surprised (well maybe I shouldn’t be, this forum is full of great information and help) at all of the help I’m getting from you guys.  I hope you understand how much it is appreciated!!

Thanks,
Mike

quote:

 You folks with a way to chuck it square can be more precise.

I've used the following technique to square up the ends of brushes, and to shorten them:

Place the brush in a miniature v-block, with the part to be trimmed or squared up sticking past the end of the block.

Take a fine file and gently file the end of the brush. The edge of the v-block will hold the file nice and sqaure.

Brushes are quite soft, so almost no pressure is required. In practice, the V-block does not even get scratched.

I typically use a fine six inch Barrett file, but the overall shape doesn't matter. The file has to have a flat side, and fine teeth. I think a needle file would be too narrow.

Mike: The CRC electronic cleaner and what I refered to the fast drying cleaner are one and the same. It should say something about fast drying on the can. And yes, I use it on the armature also to flush away all debris and gunk. I also flush the motor stator and rotor (armature) windings with it if they show any dirt build up. I hit all of the sections from all angles until they are clean. This will enable them to run cooler and as new. Same for the e-unit windings, the motor field coil winding, whistle motors, and the whistle relay windings and contacts. I basically use it as my last drying flush and clean to remove all dust or debris.

If you will email your mailing address, I will send you some brushes. email to locomods@cs.com.

C W,

I will give that method a try.  Thank you.

Bill,

Ok, thats good, I noticed that the parts cleaner dries very quickly.  Glad you're not getting me to spend more money like you said you would!!   Tonight I will clean the armature of both this GP20 and my original with the parts cleaner.  When I did the e-unit yesterday I didnt do the windings, but will also do that tonight.  I'm also sending you an email.  

Thanks,
Mike 

Always great to see and read about someone working on a MPC unit.

Sounds like a lot of CRC is being sprayed.

I try to avoid aerosols whenever I can.

Update: 

I took apart both motors tonight and these are the issues/results:

E-unit issue GP20  

Issue #1 - Solved

It would stay in neutral sometimes and not move

Fix

This was the common "dont use too much oil, dont put oil here or there" type deal.  When I noticed the plunger sticking last night, I put a few drops of oil (go ahead and shake your head... or fists ) on the engaging wheel or whatever it is on the bottom of the e-unit.  This took me about a half hour to figure out.  After another spray of CRC Electric Cleaner, magic!  No more sitting there in neutral.  For the 10-15 times I tried it, it moved forward and backward every time.  Which leads me to believe the "sticking" e-unit is fixed.

Issue #2 - Solved

Half of the stuck in neutral problem

Fix

Tonight I took the motor apart again.  If you look above with my oil comment.  Same thing here.  When I put it back together the other night, I supposed I put a little too much oil in the set screw hole.  There was oil on the top of the commutator.  Next comes the re-cleaning.  The link that C W provided said to use mineral spirits and 800-1000 grit sandpaper to clean the commutator and parts inside.  So thats what I did, man was it dirty in there.  Put it back together and she works.  Noisy e-unit though.

Original GP20

Issue #1 - Solved
Lack of power

Fix

Same fix as the one for Issue #2 above.  Took the motor apart and gave it a good cleaning.  This one was really dirty also.  Seems to have more power now. 

Overall issue with both GP20s

The other day on the same track, the e-unit issue GP was a lot faster than my original.  After putting them both back together tonight, I tried again.  This time, my original was about 20% faster.  I tried playing with the set screws which seemed to help some, but I'm hoping the brushes Bill provides fixes that issue.  

I took some pictures tonight but forgot to take a "before" one of the commutator on the original GP20, but I took an "after" picture (1st picture).  I also took a "before" picture of one brush (2nd picture), this is what the commutator looked like pre-clean.  

Also, I forget who mentioned that the brushes are a pain to get back in sometimes, well, I think I found an easy way to get them back in.  Turn the frame and motor on its side. I had no problems getting it back together (see the 3rd picture).

I put the brushes in as the very last step.

About 20 years ago I made up a set of j-hooks with tiny stiff wire.  Once the motor is all together, I  use one to pull the spring up and off to the side just enough to drop the brush into the tube.  It takes about 3 seconds per brush.

Rob,

Thats actually a good idea.  I was trying to think of something similar like that to do, but then realized I could just turn it on its side and that would work too.  This was after trying it upright 3 times and losing the brushes in the truck

Mike

putting the brushes back, I use the old "card trick" method.